Brexit. We’re out!

[baldelectrician]

You still don't get it... Each child that goes to a private school SAVES the taxpayer about £6.2k each year because that's roughly the cost of state education (it varies alot over the country, and I really can't be arsed to research what it is in your area)

So... for a child that goes to private school... we SAVE £6.2k... OR we give a private school a VAT advantage of about £2k per year (say £9k per year net with £2k VAT)

So... would you rather spend £6.2k or spend £2k ??? I know what I'd rather do...

So... in theory you pay LESS TAX if a child goes to private school !!

I do get it.

I am of the opinion that we should not give a tax relief to wealthy schools. End of

If the kids that went to the pay schools went to a state school that may drive up standards in that state school, win-win there.

I also think we should scrap rates and have a land value tax- different story

 

[Zerax]

I do get it.

I am of the opinion that we should not give a tax relief to wealthy schools. End of

If the kids that went to the pay schools went to a state school that may drive up standards in that state school, win-win there.
...

No... you STILL don't get it... at best it would be a lose-win ! But... the only way to drive up standards in education is to improve discipline in schools. My sister used to teach in a secondary school... and if she managed 15 mins of teaching in a 60 min lesson... that was a success !!

 

[telectrix]

No... you STILL don't get it... at best it would be a lose-win ! But... the only way to drive up standards in education is to improve discipline in schools. My sister used to teach in a secondary school... and if she managed 15 mins of teaching in a 60 min lesson... that was a success !!

there is no discipline. since the cane was abolished.

 

[Zerax]

I also think we should scrap rates and have a land value tax- different story

Here we go again...

Right... if you look at what the drivers are for local council expenditure, you'll see that it's mostly people based. I.e. if you have more people, the council's expenditure will go up. It has NOTHING to do with the value of your land. If you are able to park your political ideology to one side for a brief moment, you'll see that the most sensible approach is some sort of headcount based tax or you might call it a poll tax.

 

[baldelectrician]

I know how you feel but I do not believe private schools should have charitable status.
If all schools had it I would be ok with it but that is not the case.

 

[telectrix]

Here we go again...

Right... if you look at what the drivers are for local council expenditure, you'll see that it's mostly people based. I.e. if you have more people, the council's expenditure will go up. It has NOTHING to do with the value of your land. If you are able to park your political ideology to one side for a brief moment, you'll see that the most sensible approach is some sort of headcount based tax or you might call it a poll tax.

agreed, and look what happened when Thatcher introduced it. poll tax meant that a family of 4, all working, had to pay more than a widowed pensioner, which is right, it was the large families who had been getting away with low rates for years that protested, when they were the biggest drain on the council resources.

 

[baldelectrician]

I know how you feel but I do not believe private schools should have charitable status.
If all schools had it I would be ok with it but that is not the case.

Land value tax would be an alternative to rates,
it would mean large estates owned by corporations would pay much more and people in less well off areas would pay less.
This coukd be tied in with a local income tax at day 3% , people could pay the higher of the 2 ( capped)

 

[telectrix]

Land value tax would be an alternative to rates,
it would mean large estates owned by corporations would pay much more and people in less well off areas would pay less.
This coukd be tied in with a local income tax at day 3% , people could pay the higher of the 2 ( capped)

your argument is basically flawed. council funded services, e.g. Police,Fire,Bins emptied,Road Repairs, Education etc. are used by people, not land. Let them what use it, pay for it. poll tax is the answer.

 

[baldelectrician]

Local income tax or land value tax is easier to admisister
the poll tax is less fair as it affects young low paid workers such as apprentices where a local income tax is fairer as low paid people are below the threshold

Land value tax is also easier as you cannot hide land and such a tax will require people who own land to provide ownership proof.
If you know who owns the land you can send them a bill

 

[electric al]

Local income tax or land value tax is easier to admisister
the poll tax is less fair as it affects young low paid workers such as apprentices where a local income tax is fairer as low paid people are below the threshold

Land value tax is also easier as you cannot hide land and such a tax will require people who own land to provide ownership proof.
If you know who owns the land you can send them a bill

The low paid and young use the services just the same . You are promoting a two tier system and that doesn't scream fairness exactly. Sounds like the politics of envy infact

 

[baldelectrician]

The low paid and young use the services just the same . You are promoting a two tier system and that doesn't scream fairness exactly. Sounds like the politics of envy infact

So are you saying that income tax is a two tier system then?

Tax should be incremental, proportionate and fair- a local income tax does just that, although I prefer a land value tax as properties do not move and it's easier to administer (like rates)

 

[electric al]

So are you saying that income tax is a two tier system then?

Tax should be incremental, proportionate and fair- a local income tax does just that, although I prefer a land value tax as properties do not move and it's easier to administer (like rates)

Income tax is another discussion my comment was in regard to your proposal for a land value tax .
As Tel said , "services are used by people not land "

 

[Zerax]

There is no such thing as "fair"... so please stop using that term. Your view of what is 'fair' could be totally different to what someone elses view of 'fair'.

For example... if every person pays the exactly the same amount... that's fair ! Nobody is paying more, or less than the next person. Everyone is being treated equally.

But that's not fair !! I hear you scream. Because a young electrical apprentice paying £50 will hurt him alot more than say the local GP paying £50.... so lets replace the flat rate with a percentage... everyone pays 1% of income... but that's not fair either, because some people will pay alot more...

Then we have the little old lady, who lives on her own in the large old family house with a large garden. She puts out ½ a bag a rubbish every other week, is religious about recycling, never gets in trouble with the police, doesn't have kids in state school etc. etc. Is it 'fair' that she pays more "local taxes" than a family of 7 with overflowing refuse bins, 5 kids in school, the police being called out every other week, the father in and out of prison etc etc...

There's no such thing as 'fair'

And all taxes are evil and wicked... but some things have to be paid for.

 

[static zap]

Total fairness can be achieved with 100% monitoring.
(and an even bigger bill for operating it)

There's no such thing as 'fair'

And all taxes are evil and wicked... but some things have to be paid for.

... how would crime operate then ...
-We would all crack up living in a theoretic perfect world- (1982 ?)
Never mind drunk and disorderly -
there would be a fine for a loose shoe lace.

 

[littlespark]

Total fairness can be achieved with 100% monitoring.
(and an even bigger bill for operating it)

... how would crime operate then ...
-We would all crack up living in a theoretic perfect world- (1982 ?)
Never mind drunk and disorderly -
there would be a fine for a loose shoe lace.

Did you mean Orwell’s 1984?

 

[static zap]

Did you mean Orwell’s 1984?

Cheers
I stand corrected
..not that I've remembered the plot ... Lost in many ways !

 

[andyb]

There is no such thing as "fair"... so please stop using that term. Your view of what is 'fair' could be totally different to what someone elses view of 'fair'.

For example... if every person pays the exactly the same amount... that's fair ! Nobody is paying more, or less than the next person. Everyone is being treated equally.

But that's not fair !! I hear you scream. Because a young electrical apprentice paying £50 will hurt him alot more than say the local GP paying £50.... so lets replace the flat rate with a percentage... everyone pays 1% of income... but that's not fair either, because some people will pay alot more...

Then we have the little old lady, who lives on her own in the large old family house with a large garden. She puts out ½ a bag a rubbish every other week, is religious about recycling, never gets in trouble with the police, doesn't have kids in state school etc. etc. Is it 'fair' that she pays more "local taxes" than a family of 7 with overflowing refuse bins, 5 kids in school, the police being called out every other week, the father in and out of prison etc etc...

There's no such thing as 'fair'

And all taxes are evil and wicked... but some things have to be paid for.

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

Of course, there's such a thing as fair, we may not agree on what is fair but that doesn't mean there can't be a fair system. If everyone was to pay the same amount, how much more in tax would you be prepared to pay before you used the word 'unfair'? Because trust me you'd have to pay a lot more.

Same with the next paragraph, how much more would you be prepared to pay? Your little old lady still has the same bin lorry coming to her with half a dozen bin men on board, they use the same road as your family of 7. She may not be a problem for the police, but she'll soon be on the phone to them if she has intruders. As an old lady she's more likely to need the NHS.
The people who look after her, empty her bins, maintain her road etc would of had an education pad from taxes.

I could go on but I think you get my drift.

 

[telectrix]

There's so much wrong with this I don't know where to start.

Of course, there's such a thing as fair, we may not agree on what is fair but that doesn't mean there can't be a fair system. If everyone was to pay the same amount, how much more in tax would you be prepared to pay before you used the word 'unfair'? Because trust me you'd have to pay a lot more.

Same with the next paragraph, how much more would you be prepared to pay? Your little old lady still has the same bin lorry coming to her with half a dozen bin men on board, they use the same road as your family of 7. She may not be a problem for the police, but she'll soon be on the phone to them if she has intruders. As an old lady she's more likely to need the NHS.
The people who look after her, empty her bins, maintain her road etc would of had an education pad from taxes.

I could go on but I think you get my drift.

yes but under the rates system, the little old lady was paying twice as much as the family of 7 combined with only 10% of their income.

anyway. the last few posts are way off topic. brexit, we're out ... YYYYYippppppeeeeee.

 

[Midwest]

I don’t know much about taxation, except as a poor pensioner I‘m paying too much tax, and I’ve always have done.

And if I won zillions on the National Lottery, I’d still be pee’d off paying off too much tax then. That’s if I stayed. Might emigrate to Scotland, the land of milk and honey, if Krankie‘s dream comes true. He he.

 

[andyb]

anyway. the last few posts are way off topic. brexit, we're out ... YYYYYippppppeeeeee.

I'm pleased for you, I really am.
When you get a moment to spare you must tell us how your life has improved because of it.
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And if I won zillions on the National Lottery, I’d still be pee’d off paying off too much tax then.

If you won zillions you'd have no need to pay tax if you so choose MW. Just take from your pension pot up to the tax threshold, put your zillions into an account that pays no interest and draw down however much you want. No Tax. Of course whoever inherits what's left of your fortune will have to pay inheritance tax, but if that upsets you just leave it all to me, I'll be more than happy to pay it.

 

[telectrix]

When you get a moment to spare you must tell us how your life has improved because of it.

be glad to. first benefit can be seen in that we see less and less of the hated euro flag on car number plates.

 

[pirate]

Scotland is small. Easy to monitor. Should become a tax haven!
10% tax on everything, so small no-one evades it, high enough to get loads of money in!

 

[Midwest]

If you won zillions you'd have no need to pay tax if you so choose MW. Just take from your pension pot up to the tax threshold, put your zillions into an account that pays no interest and draw down however much you want. No Tax. Of course whoever inherits what's left of your fortune will have to pay inheritance tax, but if that upsets you just leave it all to me, I'll be more than happy to pay it.

No one should make an investment from my investment, doesn't make sound make advice.

 

[static zap]

high enough to get loads of money in!

That's a bit how I felt when I compared GST (Gov-Sales-Tax) in Canada
( regional variation /diff extras = more red tape )

 

[Midwest]

Of course whoever inherits what's left of your fortune will have to pay inheritance tax, but if that upsets you just leave it all to me, I'll be more than happy to pay it.

Ok thanks, I might consider placing you in my will.

 

[andyb]

Ok thanks, I might consider placing you in my will.

Only if you win the zillions MW
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When you get a moment to spare you must tell us how your life has improved because of it.

be glad to. first benefit can be seen in that we see less and less of the hated euro flag on car number plates.

And that's it? a small blue emblem on some number plates? that's all you've got?

Do you have the EU flag on your number plate Tel? because I dont.

 

[Zerax]

Of course, there's such a thing as fair, we may not agree on what is fair but that doesn't mean there can't be a fair system.

No... there isn't... the word "fair" is subjective... not objective. Similarly, we may not agree on whether a particular lady is "beautiful"... that's also subjective (have you met the wife ?)
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If everyone was to pay the same amount, how much more in tax would you be prepared to pay before you used the word 'unfair'?

Under that situation... if I paid a penny more than the others... to me, that's "unfair". You may have a different view... because it's a subjective term.
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Your little old lady still has the same bin lorry coming to her with half a dozen bin men on board, they use the same road as your family of 7. She may not be a problem for the police, but she'll soon be on the phone to them if she has intruders. ...

You need to think more on a macro scale... so imagine a whole town full of those little old ladies... you wouldn't need 18 bin lorries, but 1. You could close the police station (mind you, most already are...) You could close the housing department. You could probably remove 90% of the council... just think how much her council tax would be then !

On the other hand... imagine a town with all the large families.. you'd need 50 bin lorries, etc. etc. etc. you get the drift...

Towns are obviously never purely one or the other... but a blend of both (or rather a blend of all different sorts of scenarios).

 

[andyb]

Under that situation... if I paid a penny more than the others... to me, that's "unfair". You may have a different view... because it's a subjective term.

You miss my point, if we all paid the same amout of tax every working person in th UK would pay about £20 000 in tax.

Do you think that would be fair?

 

[Zerax]

You miss my point, if we all paid the same amout of tax every working person in th UK would pay about £20 000 in tax.

Do you think that would be fair?

Yes... I can see the argument that it would be 'fair' as we are all paying the same amount... so technically that is a 'fair' tax policy.

 

[static zap]

The balance of tax is fiddly , if those who feel over taxed leave the country .
They do their services spending in another country.
The money multiplier effect on their bigger spends is lost to another country !
Need to sort out these internet big boys(Amazon etc) "Laughing at ALL of us" with token tax paid .
Not even helping keep their workers health supported.

 

[Intoelectrics]

Ok thanks, I might consider placing you in my will.

Consider me also! I don't mind paying a bit of tax on my zillions fortune
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Me personally, i'm still sitting on the fence about whether or not I think Brexit is a good idea. Too late now but, you ever get the feeling that maybe the grass isn't greener after all?

 

[Midwest]

Consider me also! I don't mind paying a bit of tax on my zillions fortune
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Me personally, i'm still sitting on the fence about whether or not I think Brexit is a good idea. Too late now but, you ever get the feeling that maybe the grass isn't greener after all?

Too late, someone else has already made a claim.

I've fallen off the fence now, and only time will tell. The fortunate bit is, we are now in a good place to find out if we did make the right decision. Hope I'm around long enough to find out either way.

 

[andyb]

Yes... I can see the argument that it would be 'fair' as we are all paying the same amount... so technically that is a 'fair' tax policy.

There you have it, that's how Brexit happened in one post.
You've actually typed this; I assume you've read it, and still posted it.
You're happy for high earners to pay less tax at the expense of you paying a lot more, and you think it fair that someone earning £15 000 should pay £20 000 in tax.

What with this and Tel's little blue badges I'm certainly starting to see the begining of sunlit uplands.

 

[Zerax]

You're happy for high earners to pay less tax at the expense of you paying a lot more, and you think it fair that someone earning £15 000 should pay £20 000 in tax.

What I said was... that such a tax policy could be described as 'fair' as we're all paying the same amount. It would of course never work for the reason you've noted. Similarly a tax policy where we all pay a flat rate of, say 10% of our income... could also be described as 'fair' as in percentage terms we're all paying the same, although someone earning say £30k by working 60hrs a week would pay twice the tax as someone working £15k and working only 30hrs a week... and spending the rest of the time on the sofa. Is that 'fair' ??

The point I'm making is that there is NO 'fair' tax policy. There are pro's and con's with however you tax people... So your use of the word 'fair' is a complete nonsense !

 

[telectrix]

socialist policy.. "to each accordong to their needs, from each acording to their means"

translated ... "take it from those who graft, and give it to the ide layabouts"

 

[andyb]

socialist policy.. "to each accordong to their needs, from each acording to their means"

translated ... "take it from those who graft, and give it to the ide layabouts"

So you class yourself as an idle layabout Tel?
Because your whole life you've paid less than those whith more means than you.

 

[telectrix]

So you class yourself as an idle layabout Tel?
Because your whole life you've paid less than those whith more means than you.

not prcentage wise. i can assure you.

 

[Intoelectrics]

There is no way around it to make it completely "fair" across the board. I don't see how the current system can be improved. There are tax thresholds and tax credits benefits and so on... in place to try and make it "fair". The high earners will may more in monetary value but possibly less in relative personal value depending on what they earn etc... so on the face of it they could appear to be paying loads of tax, but relative to their earnings less than someone on low income. Tax evasion is rife and has been for thousands of years.. But it is getting more difficult for people to get away with it as things become more transparent due to the digital age we are in. But again this can be and I'm sure does get manipulated, especially by those that can afford to (high earners).

I did some work for a wealthy client a few years back. He was the biggest conman/crook I've ever come across. But one thing that struck me and I found a little odd considering how mean he was, was he paid no regard to parking laws. In that, he would park where ever when ever he liked. He would just pay the parking fine and considered this cost worth the convenience of parking as he feels. So my point being that, obviously the £60+ fine had no significant monetary value in his mind, just loose change. Where £60 to someone low earning could mean the difference between being fed that week or not!

 

[JK-Electrical]

??????​

 

[telectrix]

so let the buggers admit turkey, see how much they can fleece them for. any way, they can soon make up the deficit by sacking all them shiny arsed bureaurats on their 6 figure salaries and huge expense accounts.