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BS5839 -1
26.2 (f)
States methods of support should be non-combustible then goes to note 10 which makes the case that this recommendation precludes the use of plastic clips, ties and trunking..
(I can somewhat see why this regulation is misleading)

Now the interpretation of this regulation is somewhat ambiguous IMHO as all clips/ties or trunking in effect are supporting the cable in some fashion it could be argued so doubling the clips used even if not required could be taken they too are supporting the cable too, but I take from this is a cable needs to be suitably mechanically supported with fire rated solutions, if you can show this then there is no reason a number of the fixing cannot be just standard plastic fixings, BS7671 expand on this regulation.

Note here that BS7671 521.10.202
Note3 This regulation precludes, for example , the use of non metallic cable clips or cable ties as a sole means of support.

Note4 Suitably spaced steel or copper clips, saddles or ties are examples that will meet the requirement of this regulation.

This is as I have installed my system and meets the requirements set out in the BS7671 and that of the BS5839 in which the BS7671 expands on.

I am not sure what edition of BS5839-1 you are working to but here is the extract from the current edition:

My notes in RED

26.2
f) Methods of cable support should be non-combustible and such that circuit integrity is not reduced below that afforded by the cable used, and should withstand a similar temperature and duration to that of the cable, while maintaining adequate support.

This is very clear. It does not say 'some cable supports' It does not say 'many' or 'most', it simply says 'cable supports'. This means that ALL CABLE SUPPORTS should be non-combustible and afford the same level of integrity to that of the cable installed.

NOTE 10:
In effect, this recommendation precludes the use of plastic cable clips, cable ties or trunking, where these products are the means of cable support.

Again very clear -
preclude
/prɪˈkluːd/
verb
3rd person present: precludes

  1. prevent from happening; make impossible.
You are not permitted to use plastic cable clips, cable ties or trunking as a cable support. It does not use the word 'sole' that you have put in your reply to me before the words cable support.

NOTE 11:
Experience has shown that collapse of cables, supported only by plastic cable trunking, can create a serious hazard for firefighters, who could become entangled in the cables.


I really do not know how better written a regulation can be. It is crystal clear. Any plastic clips, ties or trunking as a cable support is not acceptable.
 
What does part 6 say about cable supports?
 
@essex

I have the BS5839-1 2017 and the BS5839-6 2013 which to my knowledge are still the latest versions.
Given that the regulation concerning fire rated supports in both the BS5839-1 and the BS7671 18th edition are there for the exact same reason and the body which designed and constructed these particular regulations are the one and the same then I would conclude that the BS7671 18th edition been the most up to date is the one that is accurate and thus in this case would mean it expands on the older version of the regulation in the BS5839-1.

I do not get why you think the BS5839 trumps the BS7671 as it is subjective to regulation, dates of release, amendment etc, I agree there will be extra regulation applicable under BS5839 but disagree with a sweeping claim that BS5839 always overrules, up until the recent release of the BS5839-1 (2017)there were forthcoming amendments found in the more recent versions of BS7671 in areas that crossed over that eventually were implicated in the 2017 edition ...
 
@essex

I have the BS5839-1 2017 and the BS5839-6 2013 which to my knowledge are still the latest versions.
Given that the regulation concerning fire rated supports in both the BS5839-1 and the BS7671 18th edition are there for the exact same reason and the body which designed and constructed these particular regulations are the one and the same then I would conclude that the BS7671 18th edition been the most up to date is the one that is accurate and thus in this case would mean it expands on the older version of the regulation in the BS5839-1.

I do not get why you think the BS5839 trumps the BS7671 as it is subjective to regulation, dates of release, amendment etc, I agree there will be extra regulation applicable under BS5839 but disagree with a sweeping claim that BS5839 always overrules, up until the recent release of the BS5839-1 (2017)there were forthcoming amendments found in the more recent versions of BS7671 in areas that crossed over that eventually were implicated in the 2017 edition ...

This is a fundamental teaching in fire alarm courses. When there is a clash then BS 5839 overrules. Furthermore BS 7671 does not cover fire alarms and directs us to BS 5839.

As I have stated. Cable integrity of fire alarms is not just about protecting fire fighters. You seem to have brushed over all my other points???
 
This is a fundamental teaching in fire alarm courses. When there is a clash then BS 5839 overrules. Furthermore BS 7671 does not cover fire alarms and directs us to BS 5839.

As I have stated. Cable integrity of fire alarms is not just about protecting fire fighters. You seem to have brushed over all my other points???

The cable integrity of a fire system I would agree with has to be maintained in some cases much longer for obvious reason that it needs to remain functional beyond that of general wiring systems.
I was simply saying that if you can show a cable is suitably supported and will not impair the cables integrity nor will it cause premature support failure then there is no reason why imho you cannot do what I said.

The regulations and the end of the day are a guidance and yes of course if you want to belt and braces you follow it all to the T but I have designed this, I understand the regulation and why it exists, had a secondary opinion on it by another designer who has 40yrs experience as well as had it accepted by BC and the local fire service, the regulations are belt and braces because they cannot cover all of life's scenarios and somewhat do agree and see where you're coming from but I believe this particular regulation is over egging the pudding somewhat especially when I can easily demonstrate I can maintain both support (and cable integrity now you bring it up).

Designers are allowed to make excursion from regulations as long as they can show it does not undermine why the regulation exists, is not applicable in your scenario or you can show you have met its purposes in other means.

I made 3 excursions of the regulations one of which had me questioning detection coverage hence I brought in a career designer to confirm my method as I couldn't possible comply due to building make-up without going well beyond what I thought was practical.
 
Last edited:
Friends,

I'm rewiring my brothers house tomorrow. Can someone tell me if the new 18th edition allows me to use the plastic cable clips to secure the cables to joists etc?
Or do I have to replace them with metal ones?

Thanks

ZippyMo
Trainee Sparks
You only need them if they are exposed if it's behind a plasterboard ceiling then plastic is fine
 

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