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Discuss Company kit and tools stolen in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

Andy78

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I don't see what all the fuss is about. Its the employers property, 'you're' given dispensation to take home a company vehicle, at a benefit to yourself. Your employer is asking you to take additional security measures, which is not unreasonable. I quite often see advice about unloading vans of tools etc overnight.

The only point I take, is the impact this might have on your household insurance in terms of cover & increased premiums. If that does alter your circumstances, then the individual might need to reassess, whether to take the vehicle home.
The use of a van for a worker also benefits the company in that there is no commuting time to account and pay for.
Yes it might be a reasonable request for some, but as stated in the OP some co-workers live in flats with no storage space so in this case it may not be a reasonable request at all.

I doubt I'd be making a few trips lugging gear up a few flights of stairs to take to my flat with no storage space so I could stare at it in my living room all night, just because my company decided that van vaults and tool insurance are savings they could make at the expense of workers' time and personal space backed up with threats of financial penalty.
 
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Midwest

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The use of a van for a worker also benefits the company in that there is no commuting time to account and pay for.
Yes it might be a reasonable request for some, but as stated in the OP some co-workers live in flats with no storage space so in this case it may not be a reasonable request at all.

I doubt I'd be making a few trips lugging gear up a few flights of stairs to take to my flat with no storage space so I could stare at it in my living room all night, just because my company decided that van vaults and tool insurance are savings they could make at the expense of workers' time and personal space backed up with threats of financial penalty.
Well I understand we all do not live in residential properties with off road parking, but thats not the employers problem, is it?

My last employer, only paid me from hours starting from the place of work (business address). They cared not a jot, that it took 45mins for me to get from home to my place of work, to pick up the company vehicle. As I said before, there are tax incentives for taking home a company vehicle, that also needs consideration.
 

Andy78

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Well I understand we all do not live in residential properties with off road parking, but thats not the employers problem, is it?
Not the employees problem if the employer chooses to neglect proper measures to secure their goods when the employee is out of work hours. Are these guys getting paid extra to be 24 hour custodians of gear that isn't theirs ?

I'll leave it now as it's clear we have opposite views and this could go on forever 😁
 

Midwest

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Not the employees problem if the employer chooses to neglect proper measures to secure their goods when the employee is out of work hours. Are these guys getting paid extra to be 24 hour custodians of gear that isn't theirs ?

I'll leave it now as it's clear we have opposite views and this could go on forever 😁
Agree on your last sentence. :)
 

Midwest

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if it belonga me, i insure it. if it belonga boss, boss insures it. end of.
You drinking that cheap Italian plonk again. ;)
 

telectrix

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If anyone should be listened to in a thread about theft, it's a scouser. ;) I agree.
very few Scousers would nick a tradesman's tools off his van. might leave it on bricks, but at least yous got yer tools to walk to work with. :mad::mad::mad:
 

David Prosser

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From what I have read there should be no tax implication for the OP. This should explain why I believe this to be the case.

What is a van?
For HMRC’s purposes, a van is defined as “a vehicle of a construction primarily suited for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description (not including people)” with a design weight (when in normal use and travelling on a road loaded) not exceeding 3,500 kilograms. A double cab pickup may be classified as a car or a van depending on its VAT classification while (mini)buses etc. are not vans because they are primarily designed to carry people.

The law is blunt
As the law is written, you are liable to pay tax on all “significant” private usage of a van – in other words, for journeys that you make for your own private benefit including regular shopping trips, for holidays, the distance to get to and from the likes of IKEA, or just general social activity.
While physically there’s nothing stopping you making the trips – assuming the van is taxed, MOT’d and insured – unless tax is declared and paid, HMRC is going to take a very dim view of the matter should it find out.
By definition, you do not have to pay tax on any journeys which are considered to be “insignificant private use” – that is, the odd or very rare trip which is not regular (such as journeys that are brief and very occasional).
These might be a trip to the tip a couple of times a year; making daily, but short, detours to get a paper and lunch on the way to work; or stopping off at the doctor on the way home.
Infrequent as they are, HMRC does conduct regular audits on firms nationwide to check on private usage of vehicles. And so, if this happens, how will you prove a trip in the company van was insignificant? Sadly, it’s going to boil down to what appears in the taxman’s manual and what your company can prove – your personal situation or perspective is unlikely to be taken into account.
As for how HMRC undertakes its compliance checks, they’re mostly down to common sense. Tax inspectors have been known to check vehicle registration numbers they find in supermarket car parks – especially at night, on weekends and bank holidays. From there it’s just a question of a simple search of the DVLA computer to see who owns and is the registered keeper of the van. The next stage in the discovery process means checking the HMRC computer to confirm the owner or keeper is a company and whether or not any company van benefits have been declared on employees’ P11Ds. If not, HMRC will then conduct an Employer Compliance Audit – and that’s where the problems start.
Taking steps to protect your position
Not unsurprisingly, HMRC’s taxmen will want you to prove that your company van is not being used for significant private use. They’ll also want to see that the company has put in place measures to prevent significant private use unless that private use has been declared (and tax paid). This might mean checking company policies, seeing if employees are made to sign off on policies while noting down business mileage and so on.
Indeed, it’s for these reasons that you may have been told – despite that it looks like you’re being spied upon – to note down every journey made in the van, because by doing this both you and the company will avoid any tax tied to the use of company vans or company fuel. Similarly, it’s also the reason why you may be told to pay for private use of fuel.
While ordinary commuting from home to a job is allowable, it’s still important to be accurate with record keeping. We’re all busy but estimating journey distances can get you and the company into trouble with fines.
As to what to put into a mileage log, it needs to record the van, driver, date, start and end of the journey, stops made, start and end of daily mileage – and importantly – the number of business miles covered.

Van policy
The company van policy is very important. It’s an employer’s ‘get out of jail free’ card. It should be a clear and well written document that outlines permitted uses of the van and specifically what private use is allowed. The company needs to keep the document updated and you should have been given it to read before taking a van out. You may have been asked to sign a document noting that you’ve read the policy. Don’t ignore it – if the company can show that it’s done what is required of it it’ll be you that’ll be left holding the tax baby.

Tax to be paid
To the nitty gritty of the tax regime. If there is private use you – no matter if you’re an employee or director of the company – will have to pay income tax on the company van. There is an additional tax charge where fuel is provided for private use. On top of that, the company providing the benefit pays Class 1A national insurance contributions at 13.8% on the value of the benefit and must tell HMRC of the benefit via a form P11D.
As to how much you’ll pay, the tax charge is your rate of tax multiplied by the benefit that HMRC sets for the year in question.
For the tax year 2017/18 the van benefit was £3,230 while the van fuel benefit was £610. This means anyone on a 20% tax rate would have paid £646 tax for private use of the van and an additional £122 for private use of company fuel.
The rates for the current tax year – 2018/19 – are £3,350 for the van benefit and £633 for the private use of company fuel. Again, a 20% rate tax payer will pay £670 for using the van and £126.60 for using company fuel.
The company, as we’ve seen earlier, will have to pay Class 1A national insurance contributions at 13.8% on the £3,983 value of the benefits – you’ll recall the £3,350 for the van and £633 for the fuel – a total of £549.65. However, it can set this charge against its tax bill.
 

Midwest

-
Arms
Esteemed
From what I have read there should be no tax implication for the OP. This should explain why I believe this to be the case.

What is a van?
For HMRC’s purposes, a van is defined as “a vehicle of a construction primarily suited for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description (not including people)” with a design weight (when in normal use and travelling on a road loaded) not exceeding 3,500 kilograms. A double cab pickup may be classified as a car or a van depending on its VAT classification while (mini)buses etc. are not vans because they are primarily designed to carry people.

The law is blunt
As the law is written, you are liable to pay tax on all “significant” private usage of a van – in other words, for journeys that you make for your own private benefit including regular shopping trips, for holidays, the distance to get to and from the likes of IKEA, or just general social activity.
While physically there’s nothing stopping you making the trips – assuming the van is taxed, MOT’d and insured – unless tax is declared and paid, HMRC is going to take a very dim view of the matter should it find out.
By definition, you do not have to pay tax on any journeys which are considered to be “insignificant private use” – that is, the odd or very rare trip which is not regular (such as journeys that are brief and very occasional).
These might be a trip to the tip a couple of times a year; making daily, but short, detours to get a paper and lunch on the way to work; or stopping off at the doctor on the way home.
Infrequent as they are, HMRC does conduct regular audits on firms nationwide to check on private usage of vehicles. And so, if this happens, how will you prove a trip in the company van was insignificant? Sadly, it’s going to boil down to what appears in the taxman’s manual and what your company can prove – your personal situation or perspective is unlikely to be taken into account.
As for how HMRC undertakes its compliance checks, they’re mostly down to common sense. Tax inspectors have been known to check vehicle registration numbers they find in supermarket car parks – especially at night, on weekends and bank holidays. From there it’s just a question of a simple search of the DVLA computer to see who owns and is the registered keeper of the van. The next stage in the discovery process means checking the HMRC computer to confirm the owner or keeper is a company and whether or not any company van benefits have been declared on employees’ P11Ds. If not, HMRC will then conduct an Employer Compliance Audit – and that’s where the problems start.
Taking steps to protect your position
Not unsurprisingly, HMRC’s taxmen will want you to prove that your company van is not being used for significant private use. They’ll also want to see that the company has put in place measures to prevent significant private use unless that private use has been declared (and tax paid). This might mean checking company policies, seeing if employees are made to sign off on policies while noting down business mileage and so on.
Indeed, it’s for these reasons that you may have been told – despite that it looks like you’re being spied upon – to note down every journey made in the van, because by doing this both you and the company will avoid any tax tied to the use of company vans or company fuel. Similarly, it’s also the reason why you may be told to pay for private use of fuel.
While ordinary commuting from home to a job is allowable, it’s still important to be accurate with record keeping. We’re all busy but estimating journey distances can get you and the company into trouble with fines.
As to what to put into a mileage log, it needs to record the van, driver, date, start and end of the journey, stops made, start and end of daily mileage – and importantly – the number of business miles covered.

Van policy
The company van policy is very important. It’s an employer’s ‘get out of jail free’ card. It should be a clear and well written document that outlines permitted uses of the van and specifically what private use is allowed. The company needs to keep the document updated and you should have been given it to read before taking a van out. You may have been asked to sign a document noting that you’ve read the policy. Don’t ignore it – if the company can show that it’s done what is required of it it’ll be you that’ll be left holding the tax baby.

Tax to be paid
To the nitty gritty of the tax regime. If there is private use you – no matter if you’re an employee or director of the company – will have to pay income tax on the company van. There is an additional tax charge where fuel is provided for private use. On top of that, the company providing the benefit pays Class 1A national insurance contributions at 13.8% on the value of the benefit and must tell HMRC of the benefit via a form P11D.
As to how much you’ll pay, the tax charge is your rate of tax multiplied by the benefit that HMRC sets for the year in question.
For the tax year 2017/18 the van benefit was £3,230 while the van fuel benefit was £610. This means anyone on a 20% tax rate would have paid £646 tax for private use of the van and an additional £122 for private use of company fuel.
The rates for the current tax year – 2018/19 – are £3,350 for the van benefit and £633 for the private use of company fuel. Again, a 20% rate tax payer will pay £670 for using the van and £126.60 for using company fuel.
The company, as we’ve seen earlier, will have to pay Class 1A national insurance contributions at 13.8% on the £3,983 value of the benefits – you’ll recall the £3,350 for the van and £633 for the fuel – a total of £549.65. However, it can set this charge against its tax bill.
That’s what I said. :)
 

edexlab

-
Arms
From what I have read there should be no tax implication for the OP. This should explain why I believe this to be the case.

What is a van?
For HMRC’s purposes, a van is defined as “a vehicle of a construction primarily suited for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description (not including people)” with a design weight (when in normal use and travelling on a road loaded) not exceeding 3,500 kilograms. A double cab pickup may be classified as a car or a van depending on its VAT classification while (mini)buses etc. are not vans because they are primarily designed to carry people.

The law is blunt
As the law is written, you are liable to pay tax on all “significant” private usage of a van – in other words, for journeys that you make for your own private benefit including regular shopping trips, for holidays, the distance to get to and from the likes of IKEA, or just general social activity.
While physically there’s nothing stopping you making the trips – assuming the van is taxed, MOT’d and insured – unless tax is declared and paid, HMRC is going to take a very dim view of the matter should it find out.
By definition, you do not have to pay tax on any journeys which are considered to be “insignificant private use” – that is, the odd or very rare trip which is not regular (such as journeys that are brief and very occasional).
These might be a trip to the tip a couple of times a year; making daily, but short, detours to get a paper and lunch on the way to work; or stopping off at the doctor on the way home.
Infrequent as they are, HMRC does conduct regular audits on firms nationwide to check on private usage of vehicles. And so, if this happens, how will you prove a trip in the company van was insignificant? Sadly, it’s going to boil down to what appears in the taxman’s manual and what your company can prove – your personal situation or perspective is unlikely to be taken into account.
As for how HMRC undertakes its compliance checks, they’re mostly down to common sense. Tax inspectors have been known to check vehicle registration numbers they find in supermarket car parks – especially at night, on weekends and bank holidays. From there it’s just a question of a simple search of the DVLA computer to see who owns and is the registered keeper of the van. The next stage in the discovery process means checking the HMRC computer to confirm the owner or keeper is a company and whether or not any company van benefits have been declared on employees’ P11Ds. If not, HMRC will then conduct an Employer Compliance Audit – and that’s where the problems start.
Taking steps to protect your position
Not unsurprisingly, HMRC’s taxmen will want you to prove that your company van is not being used for significant private use. They’ll also want to see that the company has put in place measures to prevent significant private use unless that private use has been declared (and tax paid). This might mean checking company policies, seeing if employees are made to sign off on policies while noting down business mileage and so on.
Indeed, it’s for these reasons that you may have been told – despite that it looks like you’re being spied upon – to note down every journey made in the van, because by doing this both you and the company will avoid any tax tied to the use of company vans or company fuel. Similarly, it’s also the reason why you may be told to pay for private use of fuel.
While ordinary commuting from home to a job is allowable, it’s still important to be accurate with record keeping. We’re all busy but estimating journey distances can get you and the company into trouble with fines.
As to what to put into a mileage log, it needs to record the van, driver, date, start and end of the journey, stops made, start and end of daily mileage – and importantly – the number of business miles covered.

Van policy
The company van policy is very important. It’s an employer’s ‘get out of jail free’ card. It should be a clear and well written document that outlines permitted uses of the van and specifically what private use is allowed. The company needs to keep the document updated and you should have been given it to read before taking a van out. You may have been asked to sign a document noting that you’ve read the policy. Don’t ignore it – if the company can show that it’s done what is required of it it’ll be you that’ll be left holding the tax baby.

Tax to be paid
To the nitty gritty of the tax regime. If there is private use you – no matter if you’re an employee or director of the company – will have to pay income tax on the company van. There is an additional tax charge where fuel is provided for private use. On top of that, the company providing the benefit pays Class 1A national insurance contributions at 13.8% on the value of the benefit and must tell HMRC of the benefit via a form P11D.
As to how much you’ll pay, the tax charge is your rate of tax multiplied by the benefit that HMRC sets for the year in question.
For the tax year 2017/18 the van benefit was £3,230 while the van fuel benefit was £610. This means anyone on a 20% tax rate would have paid £646 tax for private use of the van and an additional £122 for private use of company fuel.
The rates for the current tax year – 2018/19 – are £3,350 for the van benefit and £633 for the private use of company fuel. Again, a 20% rate tax payer will pay £670 for using the van and £126.60 for using company fuel.
The company, as we’ve seen earlier, will have to pay Class 1A national insurance contributions at 13.8% on the £3,983 value of the benefits – you’ll recall the £3,350 for the van and £633 for the fuel – a total of £549.65. However, it can set this charge against its tax bill.
Several of my colleagues have private mileage on their Company Van's this last year and they've all had their tax codes adjusted to just under 4K a year !

They're not happy as they were told it would be a similar amount as in David's post

It's being looked into over the last 6 months but no answers as yet so I don't know if it's an error someones made or if they'll get a rebate next year

I've never done it so I don't know how it works in reality
Post automatically merged:

In regard to the OP I worked for a Company that did the same except they bullied and threatened people financially

It was a case of them limiting the insurance bills, they'd had several Van's broken into and as they had inadequate insurance they then had to replace a lot of equipment themselves,
This tactic was their response the insurance level remained the same
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #45
Van got done last night. Nothing left in the van so nothing stollen and I go to work today a happy man with my weekend unspoilt
 
Several of my colleagues have private mileage on their Company Van's this last year and they've all had their tax codes adjusted to just under 4K a year !

They're not happy as they were told it would be a similar amount as in David's post

It's being looked into over the last 6 months but no answers as yet so I don't know if it's an error someones made or if they'll get a rebate next year

I've never done it so I don't know how it works in reality
Post automatically merged:

In regard to the OP I worked for a Company that did the same except they bullied and threatened people financially

It was a case of them limiting the insurance bills, they'd had several Van's broken into and as they had inadequate insurance they then had to replace a lot of equipment themselves,
This tactic was their response the insurance level remained the same
Your tax code is reduced as following
£3,430 for the vehicle
£655 for private fuel

This reduces your standard tax free allowance to £8,415

You don't pay the full amount only 20% of it for a basic rate tax payer so the additional tax would be £817 unless you earn over £34,500 a year.
 

Andy78

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Van got done last night. Nothing left in the van so nothing stollen and I go to work today a happy man with my weekend unspoilt
Glad your tools are ok. Nothing worse in the job than losing them.

Time for a serious chat with the boss about liability and insurance after this event. Unfortunately thieves do return to vans and next time they might try your garage. You need to know where you stand in the event of their gear going missing from your garage. Check with your insurance too.

Seems coincidental that this request for tool safety by the workers comes just before a break in. A suspicious mind might think all sorts.
 

MFS Electrical

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Yeah I’d be careful if your gonna moan about it seems like it would then be a case of fine don’t take the van home. Only thing I’d question is if your tools are in it during the day are they covered if they get nicked? If they aren’t I wouldn’t be going out my way to protect their gear and I’d leave it in the van.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #49
Yeah I’d be careful if your gonna moan about it seems like it would then be a case of fine don’t take the van home. Only thing I’d question is if your tools are in it during the day are they covered if they get nicked? If they aren’t I wouldn’t be going out my way to protect their gear and I’d leave it in the van.
This has been covered and I do agree with you. Thy are covered everywhere other than outside our houses. It’s a tough one. I will also be buying one of those cameras that link to your phone and putting it in the window.
 
Last edited:

David Prosser

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This has been covered and I do agree with you. Thy are covered everywhere other than outside our houses. It’s a tough one. I will also be buying one of those cameras that link to your phone and putting it in the window.
If it's covered everywhere but outside your house what happens if you happen to be doing a job next door and the tools get nicked ?
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #51
If it's covered everywhere but outside your house what happens if you happen to be doing a job next door and the tools get nicked ?
I get the feeling your taking the ----
 

Andy78

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I think they are all the same.
Absolutely not. My boss is excellent. He does make me take my tools in every night but he bought them all for me so I'm happy with that.



I may be biased being self employed though.
 

Vortigern

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Esteemed
I must say, I would decline personal use of the van and leave it at the place of business and drive in my own vehicle. As I have six in the family to drive around the van would be no use to me. The liability unacceptable.
 

Mike Johnson

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If your company is implying that their van is not insured outside your house, just ensure you get their van back to the office within working hour's, they will soon get fed up with the reduction in productivity due to you working less.
 
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