P
PGTips
In my opinion this whole problem lies with the suppliers ofthe product whether it be Edmondson’s, Newey's, CEF or B&Q for lettingsomeone walk in of the street and buy the electrical products without reallyunderstanding what they are both buying and getting themselves in to.
What’swrong with being asked for your JIB card (No idea how long that will be aroundfor) before you can purchase electrical control gear etc to show that you areat least competent to do so?
How many times have you been at a trade counter atEdmundsons etc, and been greeted by some muppet asking the guy working behindthe counter who knows less than the guy who is going to carry out the work, howto install the product he's in the process of purchasing?
I know I have in wholesalers in and around where I live where this has happened all toofrequently.
Absolute madness?
Now compare this to security product stockistswhere products are usually 12/24 volts. Firstly you have to be a company operatingin the security industry, have an account and proof of identity before aproduct is sold to you.
Who's got it wrong?
They're selling products that ifyou put your tongue on them would give you at best a little tickle. We'redealing with stuff that if you did the same would blow your head off.
Have a goHarry walks in off the street and asks for an expander board for an alarmsystem, and gets turned away from the security wholesaler for not reaching thebench mark. He then drives round to Newey's, Eddy's etc and buys a similarproduct that may or may not work in the alarm system it's intended for from them because he is allowed to do so.
Thereneeds to be more regulation in our industry to stop the general public frombeing able to do this at these types of outlets.
I think we as electriciansneed to become more protective of our industry.
What does it take? A death of apolitician or two (not that that’s a bad thing)? Oh yeh we've had that already haven't weand part "P" was rolled out wasn't it?
What’swrong with being asked for your JIB card (No idea how long that will be aroundfor) before you can purchase electrical control gear etc to show that you areat least competent to do so?
How many times have you been at a trade counter atEdmundsons etc, and been greeted by some muppet asking the guy working behindthe counter who knows less than the guy who is going to carry out the work, howto install the product he's in the process of purchasing?
I know I have in wholesalers in and around where I live where this has happened all toofrequently.
Absolute madness?
Now compare this to security product stockistswhere products are usually 12/24 volts. Firstly you have to be a company operatingin the security industry, have an account and proof of identity before aproduct is sold to you.
Who's got it wrong?
They're selling products that ifyou put your tongue on them would give you at best a little tickle. We'redealing with stuff that if you did the same would blow your head off.
Have a goHarry walks in off the street and asks for an expander board for an alarmsystem, and gets turned away from the security wholesaler for not reaching thebench mark. He then drives round to Newey's, Eddy's etc and buys a similarproduct that may or may not work in the alarm system it's intended for from them because he is allowed to do so.
Thereneeds to be more regulation in our industry to stop the general public frombeing able to do this at these types of outlets.
I think we as electriciansneed to become more protective of our industry.
What does it take? A death of apolitician or two (not that that’s a bad thing)? Oh yeh we've had that already haven't weand part "P" was rolled out wasn't it?
E
Engineer54
Amazing, another electrician that thinks the general public owes him a living!!!
He still hasn't grasped the fact if you start restricting the sale of electrical products, they WILL increase in price exponentially, and make his life of finding new work, all the harder!!
Your talking as if this is something new, ...it isn't it's been going on even before i came into the industry. It wasn't a problem then and it's still not a problem now. Perhaps you should remember your cries of woe, the next time you change a set of brake pads on your car or van for instance. Perhaps the sale of brake pads and other safety related items should also be subject to restricted sale too, in your world??
He still hasn't grasped the fact if you start restricting the sale of electrical products, they WILL increase in price exponentially, and make his life of finding new work, all the harder!!
Your talking as if this is something new, ...it isn't it's been going on even before i came into the industry. It wasn't a problem then and it's still not a problem now. Perhaps you should remember your cries of woe, the next time you change a set of brake pads on your car or van for instance. Perhaps the sale of brake pads and other safety related items should also be subject to restricted sale too, in your world??
S
sparks1973
this is a forum for electricians to come in and discuss......
the fact that its also a public forum is a bonus....
it should never be just seen as a `drop in centre` for confused berks that have been undertaking works that require....
a)an understanding of how to connect properly
b)an understanding of the likely max loads that are likely to be placed on a C/U (including diversity)
c)any concept of how to cert
d)any testing knowledge (other than functional)
e)in possession of any test gear
f)any awareness of safety (safe isolation etc)
it just goes on.......
S
Spazz
The big problem like said above is the suppliers are allowed to let job public walk into the shop and buy any item Gas, Electric, what ever!
At the least these CUs, showers, boilers, etc, etc should come with a notice stating that "the installation of this item is notifiable under Part P of the Building Regulations, please either contact your local authority or a qualified electrician before installing this item". They should also have a system like they have with TVs! You cant buy a TV these days without giving your postcode so TV Licencing can check you got a licence - same should be done with these items!
If these items came with a notice (above) it would reduce the number that are installed in a dangerous way. They have 2 options at the end of the day:
At the least these CUs, showers, boilers, etc, etc should come with a notice stating that "the installation of this item is notifiable under Part P of the Building Regulations, please either contact your local authority or a qualified electrician before installing this item". They should also have a system like they have with TVs! You cant buy a TV these days without giving your postcode so TV Licencing can check you got a licence - same should be done with these items!
If these items came with a notice (above) it would reduce the number that are installed in a dangerous way. They have 2 options at the end of the day:
- pay £120 ish to the LABC and do it themselves and the labc will come out and test
- pay £300+ to an electrician who will install, test and notify it for you
S
Spazz
Just a thought - if someone buys a CU and installs it but kills themselves whilst installing said unit, who is responsible?
The Manufacturer for not putting a notice in the box saying installing this item is dangerous, if your not confident get a qualified electrician in?, or B&Q for selling it? for Joe Blogs who didn't know better but wanted to do good by his family?
There is a bit of food for thought in this blame blame world today
The Manufacturer for not putting a notice in the box saying installing this item is dangerous, if your not confident get a qualified electrician in?, or B&Q for selling it? for Joe Blogs who didn't know better but wanted to do good by his family?
There is a bit of food for thought in this blame blame world today
E
Engineer54
The only fool responsible is the clown that tried installing it without the necessary knowledge. But what's that got to do with banning the sale to Joe Public?? Are we going to become the nanny state that rules every section of your life??
There are as many fast track so-called electricians out there that are just as incapable as some members of the public, ...in fact some of the better DIY'ers will probably do a better job than a good many of these so-called competent persons.... Thank god for the DIY'er, they are after all said and done, are a constant supply of work for all you local electricians!!
The fact is we are not the electrical police and nor should we be.
T
trev
If you buy just about any accessory from a shed or anywhere else for that matter there will be a leaflet in it which somewhere in the contents will contain the phrase "If in doubt consult a suitably qualified electrician" or words to that effect. Even stuff I've bought from the wholesalers has had it in there. If Joe Soap goes out, buys a CU, reads that and thinks "anyone can do it" then kills himnself in the process well more fool him, perhaps his family will educate their equally moronic mates about the dangers and the horrible painful fiery death which awaits the hard of understanding.
All this nonsense about restricting sale of electrical items only to card carrying sparks is beginning to grate on me because it seems to happen on a weekly basis. I can go into Plumb Center tomorrow if I so wished and as long as I can pay the nice man behind the desk I can walk out with everything I need to install a heating system in my or your home with no questions asked. Halfords will happily sell me parts for your car which I can come and fit without fear of anyone asking me if I know what I'm doing. A garden centre will be very pleased to let me walk out of there with enough toxins under my arm to kill a small village as long as I can pay them.
If the government were to protect our trade every other trade will demand parity, you will then not even be able to buy a tin of paint or a replacement gate for your garden and that will be the death of the entire DIY industry and the sheds but that will never ever happen. You know why? Because the sheds are all owned by big businesses that the government are scared of.
All this nonsense about restricting sale of electrical items only to card carrying sparks is beginning to grate on me because it seems to happen on a weekly basis. I can go into Plumb Center tomorrow if I so wished and as long as I can pay the nice man behind the desk I can walk out with everything I need to install a heating system in my or your home with no questions asked. Halfords will happily sell me parts for your car which I can come and fit without fear of anyone asking me if I know what I'm doing. A garden centre will be very pleased to let me walk out of there with enough toxins under my arm to kill a small village as long as I can pay them.
If the government were to protect our trade every other trade will demand parity, you will then not even be able to buy a tin of paint or a replacement gate for your garden and that will be the death of the entire DIY industry and the sheds but that will never ever happen. You know why? Because the sheds are all owned by big businesses that the government are scared of.
P
PGTips
Firstly I don't think that the general public owes me aliving at all because I don't do installations for the "generalpublic" they don't pay well enough.
Restricting/ceasing the sale of products to people who arenot qualified to use them, Yeh guilty of that for sure. By doing this itincreases the price of materials? Lost me there superstar. How does this workthen?
I agree with you that this has been going on for a number ofyears, but what I’m saying is with all the red tape and jumping through hoopsthat goes on in the industry these days it should policed a lot better. Theonly way this can be done effectively is to make it harder for the electricallychallenged to get hold of equipment that could potentially kill someone.
I wouldn't know about brake pads/brake fluid etc. I'm anElectrical Technician not a mechanic, so I always take the porsche to thegarage.
T
trev
Basic economics, the reason the shed can sell a CU for £50 is that they sell boatloads of them. Take Joe Soap out of the equation and they're not selling so many, if they're not selling so many they'll stop buying so many and the manufacturers will not make so many. Thus losing out on the economies of scale they get from their raw material suppliers.
E
Engineer54
So you can't see how, by restricting sales of a product won't increase it's price?? Supply and demand should be ringing loud bells for you on that one!!! So just because you take your Roll's-can-hardly to a garage, no-one is allowed to undertake work their own vehicle's, is that what your saying?? lol!!!
And who are the electrically challenged then?? Who are you going to allow to purchase electrical accessories/goods etc?? Your looking through tunnel vision glasses and can't see the far bigger picture, of the consequences being another complete disaster all round, not least for the jobbing electrician. Apart from anything else, thankfully you, and other like minded electricians are peeing in the wind, as you'll never get past the big sheds clout in the market place and the UK economy, so it's never going to happen....
If you want electricians to be proactive, start by sorting out and cleaning up your own industry, ...Now that really does need some serious work doing on.
E
Engineer54
As i think i said before, i bet the vast majority of these CU sales are to jobbing electricians trying to cut costs etc. Very few Joe's out there will try to do a CU change off their own back. I can though see them buying materials from the sheds to try and reduce their electrician costs, there-by hiring electricians on a labour only basis, ...which is fair enough if both parties agree to it!!
T
t-s
dont quote me on it because im only repeating what someone told me, but apparrently some european countries wont sell electrical good to members of the pulic and whatever their equivelant to bandq is will only sell you say for example a double socket as "double socket + fitting" not a bad system whether its true or not.
T
trev
I agree but if suddenly the shed cannot sell to Joe are they really going to be bothered with selling them to Eddy the electrician? Any restriction will be bound to come with reams and reams of paperwork, traceability etc so they can prove that on the 35th of Julember those 15 CUs they sold were taken by the aforementioned Eddy. It'll be too costly an excercise for them
O
Octopus
Their ideas of selling to the "trade" at a higher price than to the sheds.
Trade price is a joke these days.
P
PGTips
Rolls-can-hardly???? - What's this??? Oh now I get it.That's soooooooooooo funny LOL!!!
"And who are the electrically challenged then??”- Nonqualified, non competent people and the general public etc etc. Electricity at WorkRegulations stipulates clearly who is and who is not competent to work on electrical systems in th eyes of the law.
"Who are you going to allow to purchase electricalaccessories/goods etc??”- Qualified Electricians, competent persons andElectrical contracting companies. Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 refersto competent person and I don't think they mean Ken Dodd, or maybe they do?
If you want electricians to be proactive, start by sortingout and cleaning up your own industry, ...Now that really does need someserious work doing on. So what industry are you referring to here??? I presumethat you are an Electrical contractor working in the Electrical industry, so Iguess that would be you dipped in the same paint tin as us all. Or do you justwork at the local B&Q giving the how too seminars and selling the DIYidiots the stuff??? LOL!!!!
If you restricted sales at the Diy store to the competent person,the Niceic would soon see the niche market for more numbers
I can well imagine a stall, manned by Tony Cable,it could be set up next to the Dist boards in order to "sign em on" before they spend all their money on that flash swanky tripping fuse thingy
Being electrically challenged would not hold any obstacles to the punters,or at least,thus far, it hasn't impacted on nicy just yet
They could even start a B+Q installer scheme for the electrically challenged, who then are deemed "skilled this thursday"installers/ members
Perhaps these new breed of installers can have 10% off the cost of their next course, the "double socket installers upgrade"
Niceic awarded of course and exclusive to the B+Q skilled this Thursday sector
The opportunities are indeed endless
I can well imagine a stall, manned by Tony Cable,it could be set up next to the Dist boards in order to "sign em on" before they spend all their money on that flash swanky tripping fuse thingy
Being electrically challenged would not hold any obstacles to the punters,or at least,thus far, it hasn't impacted on nicy just yet
They could even start a B+Q installer scheme for the electrically challenged, who then are deemed "skilled this thursday"installers/ members
Perhaps these new breed of installers can have 10% off the cost of their next course, the "double socket installers upgrade"
Niceic awarded of course and exclusive to the B+Q skilled this Thursday sector
The opportunities are indeed endless
S
sparks1973
go to some of the elex shows Des...he already has a stand....with a microphone...and a script that says `100 ohms max Ra`....and `the importance of getting a Zs`...lol..you really should hear him...lol..lol...
E
Engineer54
Your a funny guy yourself, ...just that you can't see any further than the end of your nose!!
Electricity at Work Regulations 1989?? So when did DIY home improvement come under this??
Competent Persons?? Are you talking about the 17 day Wizz kids here??
Non-qualified non competent people and the general public?? Not sure if you are referring again here, to the 17 day wizz kids?
Starting to get the message yet, there are as many competent DIY'ers as there are in the trade these day's!! ...FACT!!
I'm afraid You have presumed wrong, a bit like everything else you've posted on this subject. ...lol!!!
O
oldtimer
PG you mention how long will the JIB last well I would like to think 20 years to see me out but seriously we are looking down to the abyss because if the Schemies get control of Grade cards then we are in trouble as for big sheds well that genie is out of the bottle because big business talks and in this current economical climate the government listens now we could make it like Gas Safe here but a lot of "Professional Electricians" would gladly get sucked into "Danger Notices" in other words a license to print money but what everybody is missing is this notification scheme because it aint and it wont work there will be no Notification Police kicking doors in and shouting right mate your busted for putting in a twin RCD safety board that by the way makes your installation 100 times safer which make you think why have notification in the first place and thats where the Schemies come because its their job to make you think you need them when European Free Trade Act says otherwise
P
PGTips
Since whencan you complete a fully indentured recognised Electrical apprenticeship in 17days? Never heard of that one?
TheElectricity at Work Act 1989 applies to all buildings where electrical work hasbeen carried, or is being carried out, either by qualified or non-qualifiedpersonnel and as I’ve pointed out to you before, isthe law.
It’s the one thatthe barrister will quote the DIY’er, who had just decided to wire a new socket into his house circuit, but didn’t really see the point in attaching the barecopper wire, or test the socket correctly and then killed his 5 year old.
Yeh I’mpretty sure that would be one of the documents that would hit the DIY’er on theback of the head, as they take him down for man slaughter, if he’s found incontempt of it.
Which by thesound of it you probably have been many times. LOL!!!
I don't knowwhat type of jobs you work on but I'm afraid a DIY'er as you put it will neverbe as good as a fully qualified apprentice trained Electrician, don't care whatyou say, and after all how could he be?
I didn't knowthat a practicing DIY'er carried out cable calculations, applied diversity andused Zs tables, or is DIY the new apprenticeship and holly bible of theelectrical industry these days? Last time I looked you couldn't get on to aproper job with a B&Q loyalty card. LOL!!! Or have things really got thatbad LOL??
So you justpack the bags for them do you? Don't get involved with all that Electricalstuff and the seminars. Yeeeeh Best way forward for you I think. LOL!!!
E
Engineer54
Haha, ...a Real funny guy, ...well still trying to be anyway... lol!!
Exactly, so you have never heard of the 5/4 week wonders and now the 17 day Wizz kids, that can go on these short courses, get the 17th edition C&G, (and that's all they have, unless you count PAT testing as an appropriate qualification for an electrician) approach a Part Pee scheme provider pay there fee and bingo, he's a competent person, that can now go into peoples homes and undertake any electrical work in that home!!!! So are you getting the picture NOW, or do you Still have your head up in the clouds??
Most sensible DIY'ers wouldn't ever attempt a CU change, Part re-wire, full re-wire, but will be more than capable of adding/moving a socket outlet(s) to a circuit, or replacing accessory plates etc, etc. Fact is you'll never be able to stop a DIY'er, they will always find a way around any legislation that tries to stop them improving there home. If he's daft enough to go meddling beyond his abilities, in any area, not just electrical work, that's his concern, not yours, mine or anyone else's.... By the way, as far as i know, ''The Electricity at Work Act 1989'' applies to places of employed work, Not anything a DIYer would be doing in his own home. The clue lies in the title of the Act!!!
P
Plonker 3
Directly from the EAWR 1989
So basically you you do not need any electrical qualifications to carry out electrical work.
The only way to make it happen would be to change the law, which isn't going to happen any time soon. Why do you think Part P was introduced?
O
oldtimer
dagrat
-
I think it must be remembered that because the sheds can sell these items, it is a means of keeping prices from the wholesales in check. We shouldnt advocate any limitations on the sale of electrical items as this will be counter-productive in the long run, education of the public is a far better alternative.
The arguement about the increased risk of danger is a mute point, what about the various household items that can be used to make a bomb, the car parts that could lead to serious loss of life and finally cigarettes? Surely more people are killed due to these than electrical faults?
The arguement about the increased risk of danger is a mute point, what about the various household items that can be used to make a bomb, the car parts that could lead to serious loss of life and finally cigarettes? Surely more people are killed due to these than electrical faults?
E
Engineer54
From what i've read on the subject, ...to ensure that only competent persons undertook electrical work in the domestic industry!! Well that failed miserably, didn't it!! Now we have DI's going from stacking shelves at Tesco's to being deemed competent in 17day's.... As if by MAGIC!! lol!!!
T
trev
You can't become a qualified electrician but you can get the necessary quals for scheme membership, the training centres word their ads very cleverly. One says "complete these courses and you would be eligible to become a qualified electrician" a lot of people read what they want to see so couple that with scheme membership and you have people wandering around unsupervised thinking they're a lot more than they actually are
P
PGTips
It's actually the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 andthat's my typo from the previous correspondence. I was thinking at the time ofThe Health and safety at Work Act 1974 where the Electricity at workRegulations 1989 come in under section 15 of that document and the two gotmixed up as I typed up my response.
For your information The Electricity at Work Regulations1989 apply where ever electricity may be encountered so no the clue is not inthe title at all.
You are correct that you probably will not be able to stop aDIY'er from carrying out work on their property unless things change. What I amsaying is that they should not be working on electrical systems period, if theyare not apprenticeship trained and qualified to do so. If these people can'tobtain the equipment to execute the work, then how would they be able to carrypotentially dangerous work out? Without any proof of their technical andpractical qualifications they should not be issued with the products from whichever outlet they try to buy the materials from.
A 5/4 week wonder (I've never heard of this, 6 monthwonders, yes) who passes a BS7671 course is not entitled to any form of IDstating that he, she, it, is qualified as an Electrician from any overseeingelectrical body that I know of or have heard of. So if we're now all having toprovide ID to get our electrical accessories how could the hardened DIY'erpossibly buy the items in person from a wholesaler be it Eddy's, Newey's orB&Q?
By the way, I've nothing against B&Q or the qualifiedElectricians that use this outlet as their way of sourcing cheaper electricalproducts that they can't get the same deal on at their local electricalwholesalers. Years ago I was involved in the design, construction & testingof B&Q warehouses and depots up and down the country, and I made a lot ofmoney out of it as well. What I am against is the cavalier attitude ofcompanies like B&Q towards the selling of electrical installation productsto none qualified, barely competent members of the public. The selling of CU'sand various other items of electrical accessories/equipment to people who havetrouble fastening their shoe laces, or deciding what undies to put on in amorning is a little bit more than a concern I would say, wouldn't you?
imago
-
Well this thread is some read!
So in essence we have the 'people should only be able to buy equipment which they are qualified to use and fit safely' and the 'they should be able to buy whatever they like' camps.
Hmm, restricting sales of good to only suitably qualified people is a non-starter for many reasons, quite a few of which have already been posted. To be honest that suits me just fine, long may it continue. You can't legislate against people being stupid and/or getting out of their depth so it's just not possible. Nor should the Government or any other body try to as the safety arguement doesn't stack up statistically.
Many more people (DIYers) are killed or injured using ladders than working with electricity, more are killed or injured using garden equipment, more are killed or injured in cooking/kitchen accidents, and so on. So from a purely safety related stand point there are far more urgent areas to restrict use and sales for than electrical goods. Restricting them for any other reason is a churlish attempt at restrictive practice.
So in essence we have the 'people should only be able to buy equipment which they are qualified to use and fit safely' and the 'they should be able to buy whatever they like' camps.
Hmm, restricting sales of good to only suitably qualified people is a non-starter for many reasons, quite a few of which have already been posted. To be honest that suits me just fine, long may it continue. You can't legislate against people being stupid and/or getting out of their depth so it's just not possible. Nor should the Government or any other body try to as the safety arguement doesn't stack up statistically.
Many more people (DIYers) are killed or injured using ladders than working with electricity, more are killed or injured using garden equipment, more are killed or injured in cooking/kitchen accidents, and so on. So from a purely safety related stand point there are far more urgent areas to restrict use and sales for than electrical goods. Restricting them for any other reason is a churlish attempt at restrictive practice.
These threads about sheds selling consumer units always seem to get paired into two camps
Once the discussion gets into gear,domestic electrical work by the Diy guy brings out the "Only by the profesionals" opinion
To be fair,the vast majority of home electrics is pretty easy and well within the capability of the Diy er who can handle a screwdriver and knows his way around a house
If it was so complicated and difficult, these schemes would not have a quarter of the numbers they currently enrol
It is a skilled job,but we are not superman tradesmen and neither are we professionals,we are tradesmen.craftsmen,manual workers with a bit of common sense,but not in a profession
Once the discussion gets into gear,domestic electrical work by the Diy guy brings out the "Only by the profesionals" opinion
To be fair,the vast majority of home electrics is pretty easy and well within the capability of the Diy er who can handle a screwdriver and knows his way around a house
If it was so complicated and difficult, these schemes would not have a quarter of the numbers they currently enrol
It is a skilled job,but we are not superman tradesmen and neither are we professionals,we are tradesmen.craftsmen,manual workers with a bit of common sense,but not in a profession
imago
-
What about a teacher who retrains as an electrician? He or she would be a professional, a tradesman and a Electrical Trainee. That would trump the lot I reckon.
Totally. Where does it stop (this controlling of people's actions) once started? Licence to use a step ladder to purchase one? Licence to use a lawn mower?
People need to have the freedom to exercise common sense and judgement AND bear the consequences of making bad decisions.
Also, can these '17' day/week wonder (whatever) register for FULL SCOPE electrical works with the schemes? Remember that the Competent Person Scheme has two tiers of membership.
I disagree that someone has to have a fully indentured apprenticeship behind them to carry out basic electrical tasks in a domestic dwelling. Come on, it's not rocket science and let's stop pretending that it's that hard.
The phrase 'competent' is correctly worded in my opinion. As has been stated, there are enough people carrying out electrical work with the 'qualifications' but either they are not competent, or choose to not work competently to not make this requirement enough in it's own right.
Bring back good old 'pride in your work', 'conscience' and a sense of personal responsibility, i.e. the values that a decent society is built on.
Government cannot legislate against the downward spiral of the moral conscience that allows people to operate with a despicable attitude towards everyone around them.
- - - Updated - - -
What about a teacher who retrains as an electrician? He or she would be a professional, a tradesman and a Electrical Trainee. That would trump the lot I reckon.
Actually I was a teacher before I retrained. Took me a bit longer than 5 weeks mind you! More like 5 years!
OFFICIAL SPONSORS
These Official Forum Sponsors May Provide Discounts to Regular Forum Members - If you would like to sponsor us then CLICK HERE and post a thread with who you are, and we'll send you some stats etc
Advert
Thread starter
applemac
-
Thread Information
Advert
Thread statistics
Advert
TrueNAS JBOD Storage Server
-
-
Understanding TrueNAS JBOD Servers: A Comprehensive Guide- Started by Dan
- Replies: 8
-
