Discuss DOMESTIC INSTALLER BARE MINIMUM REQUIREMENT in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

seza

New EF Member
Messages
2
Location
berks
Hi and happy new year to all,

Apologies if this has been asked before,

I have been around electrics all my life in a DIY capacity, learnt from competent electricians over the years,
Now I hope to gain the required qualification, my question to you is simply ...
What are the bare minimum steps I need to take to achieve that quickly and cheaply?

Many thanks.
 

oracle

Electrician's Arms
Messages
570
Without wishing to offend, would you want to have a doctor who did the bare minimum, easiest and cheapest way to qualify?

Don't know how long "all your life" is, coming to the UK twenty years ago, after 35 years as a fully qualified electrician, I spent three years of night courses to meet the JIB requirements.

There are many others on this forum, some far more qualified than me who have also invested time and money in their careers.

Minimum, cheapest and quickest just doesn't cut it. If you want to get a career as an electrician then there are several good options, all of which will require time, motivation and money.
 

Gavin John Hyde

Electrician's Arms
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2,634
Location
Somerset
okay not that i agree or approve of this but the bare minimum for niceie / elecsa DI scheme is
18th edition
2392 testing
sit there online exam at home with your books for equivalent knowledge to satisfy the level 3 QS criteria.
have the correct books (BBB and OSG)
get a MFt with calibration
Insurance
fill the forms in from website and pay the fees.
show them a fuse board change in your own home or a family members and that is basically it.
you could do the 2 courses above in a week!
so maybe i should do a 5 day wonder course?

you do not need a NVQ3 to join the DI scheme as the online test they provide is said to be equivalent technical knowledge!?
Once you have been on the Di scheme for a year you could then move upto the AC without 2394/5 or 2391. its all about money!
 

happyhippydad

Member
Electrician's Arms
Messages
3,107
Location
Gloucestershire
Hi and happy new year to all,

Apologies if this has been asked before,

I have been around electrics all my life in a DIY capacity, learnt from competent electricians over the years,
Now I hope to gain the required qualification, my question to you is simply ...
What are the bare minimum steps I need to take to achieve that quickly and cheaply?

Many thanks.
The 'bare minimum steps' would be to

1.Find a domestic installers course that has good reviews.

2. Complete the course.

3. Buy £2000 of equipment plus how ever much on a van.

4. Get PL insurance, equipment calibrated and register as a sole trader.

5. Spend around 1 year working with a qualified, experienced electrician.

6. Apply to a Part P scheme and pay the fees. Organise your health and safety policy, complaints procedure, risk assessments

7. Never stray from Domestic work as that is what you will be qualified in.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Matthewd29

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,192
Location
Belfast
Bare minimum won't cut it. You might be a domestic installer on paper afterwards but you most definetly won't have the required experience. Wrong attitude from the start here
 
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peterhyper

Regular EF Member
Messages
295
Location
London
Hi and happy new year to all,

Apologies if this has been asked before,

I have been around electrics all my life in a DIY capacity, learnt from competent electricians over the years,
Now I hope to gain the required qualification, my question to you is simply ...
What are the bare minimum steps I need to take to achieve that quickly and cheaply?

Many thanks.
 

casperLennon

Electrician's Arms
Messages
234
Location
derby
So if I have nvq3 would I still have to do an online test? Does having that qualification make any difference? And what if I have 2391 as well?
 

Murdoch

Regular EF Member
Messages
25,126
Location
Woking
Extras to Post # 11

Expect to earn very little for 2 years minimum

Overheads per year run to about £5ooo

AND have plenty of cash in your business account so you can pay your suppliers whilst your customers don't pay you....
 

peterhyper

Regular EF Member
Messages
295
Location
London
Hi and happy new year to all,

Apologies if this has been asked before,

I have been around electrics all my life in a DIY capacity, learnt from competent electricians over the years,
Now I hope to gain the required qualification, my question to you is simply ...
What are the bare minimum steps I need to take to achieve that quickly and cheaply?

Many thanks.
Can't you ask the competent electricians for advice who you've learnt so much from over the years?
 
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Reactions: DPG

Vortigern

Regular EF Member
Messages
4,766
Location
England
Hi and welcome to the forum. Take a look at this link and consider very carefully what it has to say. The page shows what the EAS require for entry into the electrical field. Do not be discouraged at some of the answers you have received. There is no doubt people here who have spent many years honing their skills and generally there is a fair amount of resentment (maybe justified) at people who come along and get to be an "electrician" in a couple of weeks so try to understand that. However if you are determined to progress the link is the de facto requirements for entry route in a proper fashion.
Morris Services - Getting Started - https://www.morrisservices.co.uk/gettingstarted.asp
Simply put there is no other way or route to becoming a legal and bona fide spark.
 

Cid

Regular EF Member
Messages
91
Location
London
Get off your high horses people. Becoming a domestic installer isn't that difficult for expert diy'ers or people with construction/engineering background.
 

DPG

Respected Member
Messages
5,204
Location
S Yorkshire
Get off your high horses people. Becoming a domestic installer isn't that difficult for expert diy'ers or people with construction/engineering background.
Nothing 'high horse' about it. The OP stated he wanted the cheapest and quickest way in. No mention of doing it properly - just a quick and nasty route in to be able to do electrical work for the public. In fact he said 'bare minimum'. This is not good.
 

Cid

Regular EF Member
Messages
91
Location
London
Nothing 'high horse' about it. The OP stated he wanted the cheapest and quickest way in. No mention of doing it properly - just a quick and nasty route in to be able to do electrical work for the public. In fact he said 'bare minimum'. This is not good.
Providing the work complies with the wiring regulations, what's the problem?
There are plenty of electricians who have spent years studying and training. But they don't have a clue how to lift floorboards so they stick to the easy stuff. Others have spent two weeks on DI and just good for house bashing.
 

DPG

Respected Member
Messages
5,204
Location
S Yorkshire
Providing the work complies with the wiring regulations, what's the problem?
There are plenty of electricians who have spent years studying and training. But they don't have a clue how to lift floorboards so they stick to the easy stuff. Others have spent two weeks on DI and just good for house bashing.
If you're happy for someone to install and fully test/certify electrical work who wants to do the 'bare minimum' to become technically qualified then I find that worrying. I accept he may well know how to lift bits of wood and screw them back down however.
 

45140

Regular EF Member
Messages
141
Location
Midlands
My understanding is as below - because electrical training companies have a habit of giving different answers to the same simple question and thus leaving confusion in everyone's mind

As I understand it then, to register with a Competent Person Self-Certification Scheme such as NICEIC, NAPIT or ELECSA, you will be expected to be Competent in electrical installation, have your 18th edition wiring Regs, know how to inspect and test, and be able to install in line with the latest Part P building Regs. This is achieved by undertaking a number of training courses and gaining a series of training qualifications.

You will need therefore as a minimum :-
(1) C&G 4141-01 Domestic Installation,
(2) C&G Level 3 Certificate in the Building Regulations for Electrical Installations in Dwellings (2393-10),
(3) City & Guilds 2382-18 18th Edition Course, and finally
(4) C&G 2392-10 Inspection & Testing Course


or EAL equivalents.


Having obtained these skills and qualifications you then need apply to a Part P registration scheme which will allow you to self-certify your installation work once Registered. The scheme provider will then provide your customers with a Part P electrical certificate removing the need for the Building Controls to inspect.

However
will not be registered until you have had a workplace inspection of your work which means finding work that can wait for an assessor to turn up.


As I say this is my (current) understanding but given the unbelievable state of the Industry I have no doubt somebody will come along and point out that something else that needs to be achieved.

Quite why something so simple is being made so complicated by different opinions and advice from the different training Companies is beyond me.

There are three people who are on my course at the moment who are landlords in waiting, and who were told by the training company sales offices that all they needed to do was to undertake Courses (1) and (2) above and they could certify their own work.

When they started the course the Instructor said in answer to that question "..well YES but no-one will accept your certification as you need to be Part P registered - and you will need to also do these extra courses (3) and (4) ....or pay a lot of money and have Building Control inspect it..." As you can imagine that went down really well !

Now these guys had joined in the expectation that being trained was simply completing the two one-week courses which would have been cheaper than getting a qualified electrician in to do their house re-wiring, and this was suggested by the training organisation's sales advisor as being the best reason to join the course. In some cases they are already in employment and have taken time off work to undergo the two-week training programme.

Now of course they face the dilemma that if they do sit the further training, then they will have paid far MORE in training costs than they would have done had they gone to an electrician in the first place The alternative is to walk away having spent over £1000 with nothing useful to show, and no way of recouping the money by installing the electrical work themselves.


I think I have maybe also pee'd them off somewhat by also pointing out that technically doing the work as a landlord is not a domestic install but actually commercial work - as they will be renting out the properties they have bought as a business venture! That naturally means yet another series of week-long or two-week long Courses, and more money.

I also do not think either that they are aware of the cost of buying the very expensive test equipment and proper tools that will be needed ultimately to complete the testing should they go down that road - something which NO training organisation I have spoken tells you about. So right now all these guys think that a £5 meter from a diy shop or off ebay together with a testing screwdriver will be suitable.

I am hearing comments such as that they can now do the odd job here and there for their friends and neighbours to either re-coup the costs of the training or to make money for their holidays or the pub. When you talk about professional indemnity and sole trader insurance you get blank looks. This all seems to me to be a bad way to enter the Industry.

If this is the state of the of the Industry within which the training companies are operating, then no wonder that people who are being passed out do more-so on the basis that it is a "distress purchase" rather than having any specific desire to actually "be" an electrician.

Coming from a highly regulated Industry I am stunned at the lack of understanding/clarity, find the whole thing totally bizarre as it does not appear to be supplying suitably competent people, and most worrying of all is that the training process appears to be driving into the profession people who, in some cases I am sure, must be thoroughly unsuitable and are here for the wrong reasons.


Finally whilst I can understand to a degree the animosity that is shown on here to people who are entering the Industry through this route, please consider that not all of us are w**kers, and some of us may already have a good understanding of electricity, fancy a change of direction, and WANT to do a good job. I fear that the attitudes shown by some on here are stopping those with a basic knowledge from learning from their more experienced peers ?

The Industry has now changed and the genie is out of the bottle and will never likely go back in. Surely it is better to be nice to people who come seeking advice from a genuine desire and help them ? It is not our fault that the Industry has moved to where it is.

Being unpleasant - in addition to making the Forum less attractive - does nothing positive but to me at least appears to be driving a wedge between experienced people and those willing and able to learn. I appreciate that is some cases the questions asked could well have been phrased a lot better but you do not need a Degree in English language to be an electrician.

I am sorry for such a long reply but quite frankly having lurked for a few months, I really do not have to desire to ask a question and be subjected to abuse and denigration and you will see I have posted no questions whatsoever.

Given what I have seen and read I am in two minds as to whether to stay or to go, as the whole point of the forum is to enable questions to be answered by knowledgeable and experienced electricians.


I am sorry if this offends anyone
 
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ipf

Forum Mentor
Messages
4,858
Location
Walmington-on-Sea/Lancashire
No offence, pal. Plenty good points stated... but many of those asking for advice haven't the slightest understanding of the trade, have no intention of paying for any training or qualification whatsoever and are just after the quickest and cheapest method of getting from A to B.
I must say, too, that a few of those offering help or advice to those in question, don't instil a great deal confidence in the trade.
 

45140

Regular EF Member
Messages
141
Location
Midlands
No offence, pal. Plenty good points stated... but many of those asking for advice haven't the slightest understanding of the trade, have no intention of paying for any training or qualification whatsoever and are just after the quickest and cheapest method of getting from A to B.
I must say, too, that a few of those offering help or advice to those in question, don't instil a great deal confidence in the trade.
Thank you. Just to confirm I fully agree with the point you make, and no offence in that way was intended. I too dislike intensely those morons who think its all just two-coloured wires, and personally I would put the buggers inside for a period to make the point. IN my limited experience of domestic wiring I have felt the hairs on my neck rise on a variety of occasions. I would now avoid like the plague buying any house which was last owned by a DIYer where you can see or know that there have been changes to the electrical system.

The sooner the UK adopts the Irish system of making it a criminal offence for an untrained and registered person to work on domestic electrical the better. There any unrecorded work is reported and investigated and no inspection certificate leads down a quick route to the Courts unless there is a very convincing explanation !.
 

Andy78

Respected Member
Messages
8,393
Location
Kingston upon Hull
@45140 One of the reasons the more seasoned electrician is disparaging about this entry method into the industry is precisely the problem you have highlighted. The short courses and training centres are generally in the business of misleading and ripping people off. They provide a smattering of add on courses and pretend that this is satisfactory then churn them out into the world thoroughly unprepared and unemployable for the industry.

Many short course electricians have started off with more reputable versions of this route with the understanding that this is a first foot hold into work and that many years of further education and learning are required to get up to an experienced standard. Most in the industry don't have a problem with that.

The reason the OP has garnered short shrift in this case is that they were interested in only doing the bare minimum, clearly not an attitude conducive to progression or competence in this industry.

I fear that a mandatory registration scheme will be bad for the industry as it would have to set a standard for what constitutes "qualified" or competent. I fear the short course industry, fully backed by and in collusion with the likes of the NICEIC, would have too much leverage and say in this matter and that standards would drop below the nearest thing we currently have as an industry standard, the JIB level of qualification, a full NVQ3.
 

ipf

Forum Mentor
Messages
4,858
Location
Walmington-on-Sea/Lancashire
@45140 One of the reasons the more seasoned electrician is disparaging about this entry method into the industry is precisely the problem you have highlighted. The short courses and training centres are generally in the business of misleading and ripping people off. They provide a smattering of add on courses and pretend that this is satisfactory then churn them out into the world thoroughly unprepared and unemployable for the industry.

Many short course electricians have started off with more reputable versions of this route with the understanding that this is a first foot hold into work and that many years of further education and learning are required to get up to an experienced standard. Most in the industry don't have a problem with that.

The reason the OP has garnered short shrift in this case is that they were interested in only doing the bare minimum, clearly not an attitude conducive to progression or competence in this industry.

I fear that a mandatory registration scheme will be bad for the industry as it would have to set a standard for what constitutes "qualified" or competent. I fear the short course industry, fully backed by and in collusion with the likes of the NICEIC, would have too much leverage and say in this matter and that standards would drop below the nearest thing we currently have as an industry standard, the JIB level of qualification, a full NVQ3.
I fear you are right in that the trade has reached such a low standard and fear even more it going into free fall in the current situation. I come across regular examples of these sub qualified 'electricians' entering the commercial and even the industrial sections of the trade. We read, in this forum, of regular 'domestic electricians' who stick to what they know and are happy with. Fair enough. Others get over confident, not knowing the full extent of knowledge required.
Thousands of sparks have served their time in the domestic zone and changed to industrial, we know, some good, some not so but it doesn't alter the fact that, during training, it did used to include a much greater variety of topics. These days it's a case of being able to deduce requirements from a reg book....and you'll pass your multi choice exam and walk away as qualified....as long as you pay your yearly fee.
When we talk about 'minimums', even they are falling over the edge, I worry.
 

spinlondon

Forum Mentor
Messages
11,076
Location
Harlow Essex
Anyone can do electrical work.
I was about 12 when I started.
Problem is, what do you about notifiable work?
You need certain qualifications do join a scheme.
So you either restrict yourself to non-notifiable work, tell the householder that they’ll have to notify, or get the required qualifications and register with a scheme.
 

DPG

Respected Member
Messages
5,204
Location
S Yorkshire
Anyone can do electrical work.
I was about 12 when I started.
Problem is, what do you about notifiable work?
You need certain qualifications do join a scheme.
So you either restrict yourself to non-notifiable work, tell the householder that they’ll have to notify, or get the required qualifications and register with a scheme.
You also need the skills/experience /qualifications to be able to test and certify your work. This is where people struggle.
 

spinlondon

Forum Mentor
Messages
11,076
Location
Harlow Essex
You also need the skills/experience /qualifications to be able to test and certify your work. This is where people struggle.
I seem to remember first being taught to test back in 1981.
Didn’t really start proper testing mine and other people’s work until 1982/3.
Qualified as an Electrician in 1985.
Re-qualified as a civilian Electrician in 1989/90.
Never bothered getting a testing qualification.
 

DPG

Respected Member
Messages
5,204
Location
S Yorkshire
What I meant is that it's not just notifiable work that is the issue. All work needs certifying, even if it isn't notifiable.
 

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