EICRs and LANDLORDS

[marconi]

Rather than add to 'Thoughts on recommendation' I thought it better to begin a new one.

I am a landlord in London. I think it should be mandatory for an in-date EICR whenever a new tenant takes up a lease and of course after electrical works. I present to my tenants both the EICR and Gas Safety certificate in an information pack. I also tell my insurance company and letting agent and send them a copy of both. For me it is a question of discharging my duty of care responsibilities. I know several good landlords who follow suit.

I always use the same electrician - not a friend, friend of a friend, etcetera - completely independent of me and I have checked his qualifications. This way he knows my properties and remarkably he seems to be able to remember even the make of CU - or does he look up the last inspection? I send him an email to arrange the EICR which he acknowledges so I have a record of the formal request for an EICR. I pay him up front in cash - (a cheque could be cancelled) - and he gives me his bill with the EICR, VAT inc, and marked 'paid in full' and referring to the EICR form serial number dated. I leave him alone to do the EICR and he either leaves the EICR in the flat or posts it to me. I then read it, discuss with him if necessary and arrange any remedials, etcetera.

 

[Fox]

Can someone please give this lad a temporary break. I'm getting bored with this drivel taking up my feed - judging by previous posts he's been on the same war path for 3 years

 

[Merv]

Can someone please give this lad a temporary break. I'm getting bored with this drivel taking up my feed - judging by previous posts he's been on the same war path for 3 years

Come on Fox, surely you can do better than that.
Perhaps if you examined the issues instead of the people discussing them you might not get so bored.

 

[Octopus]

Paul,
Sorry for the delay in answering.

A money-spinner is a source of profit.
So unless EICRs are handed out free, or charged at cost only by those you term as ''TRUE'' Electricians,'' then I think the term money-spinner is appropriate for EICRs.
What more can there be to explain?

On what basis exactly?

Come on matey just list the reasons so we can have a reasonable debate....

 

[Merv]

Murdoch.

Surely you can grasp something as simple as that.
Are you trying to send me up?

Here it is again anyway - ''A money-spinner is a source of profit.''

 

[Paul.M]

Can someone please give this lad a temporary break.

eerrmm,,, tempted but we will continue with the conversation (for now).

Paul,
Sorry for the delay in answering.

No worries Merv, I've been too busy doing EICR's for student landlords at a reasonable price to busy log on and reply whilst you have 110 to do lol.

A money-spinner is a source of profit. So unless EICRs are handed out free, or charged at cost only by those you term as ''TRUE'' Electricians,'' then I think the term money-spinner is appropriate for EICRs.
What more can there be to explain?

EICR's are not "money-spinners". They are a safety check regulated by the IET & BSI, not part P. Look into the history of part P, it was designed to give kitchen fitters the ability to add or extend a circuit (in a nutshell).


Ok lets look at it this way.... Last year (from the top of my head) there were 14 electrical deaths in the UK reported by the HSE. A few of them were in rented domestic properties and due to bad installs and not checked by a qualified electrician. Question for you...... How many millions of properties within the UK are rented? If they are managed correctly by the owner there should not be any problems. The price of this service is nothing compared to someones life.




ps... sort your software out. After quoting your post I can see the problems you have got. What are you using? A Spectrum ZX81 or a Amstrad CPC464????

 

[Andy78]

I seem to have caused some offence to a few on here judging by their personal comments towards me. I shan't waste my time answering them.

That is not the way to debate issues.

You've entered this thread and called electricians rip off merchants, accused forum members and electricians in general of being instrumental in lobbying to change legislation for their own profit .. something that has no basis in fact... and accused out trade in general of having no interest in customer's safety and only in money. If you can't see those remarks as personal and inflammatory then you need to check yourself.

It also appears that my point about mandatory EICRs has been spectacularly missed by more than one, and they think I have something against safety and EICRs.
This is not my view at all.

I see EICRs as insurance against certain litigation where landlords are concerned.

Wrong, they are an assessment of the safety of an installation and it's continued use.

Sensible landlords already ensure they have one for every property they let.
They're cheap enough anyway if you know where to get them from.

Could you tell us how cheap you get them for and how long each one takes to be performed ? I ask as the cheapest ones can sometimes be works of pure fiction and have no bearing on the safety of an installation.

What I'm against is forcing landlords to jump through hoops and criminalizing those who get caught out by the red tape and petty rules that invariably go with any legislation that requires action to avoid prosecution.

Part P was a Godsend to the electrical trade in general with the extra work it has created, and for trivial gains in safety. If any at all in most cases.

This proves you know nothing about our trade. What gains in extra work followed the creation of part P and what proof do you have to support this ? All part P did was water down the skillset in our trade and increase costs for electricians which then had to be passed on to customers.

That's why this government has watered down some of the legislation concerning Part P. and are soft on enforcement.
Notifying work done and logging it all down at the council offices for God's sake - how ridiculous can you get in wasting time and money?
Yet it still exits

The inconvenience and time wasting is generally only experienced by electricians.

I see compulsory EICRs in the same vein as writing Part P.into law.
And the shouts for enforcement of it, as simple greed from the vested interest who would profit from the legislation as they have done from the introduction of Part P. as it stands.

You'll find that the schemes would be instrumental in calling for changes in legislation and not electricians in general. As you have already been told, you are barking up the wrong tree here.


By the way, you're not dealing with John Prescott in government now.

Paul,
Sorry for the delay in answering.

A money-spinner is a source of profit.
So unless EICRs are handed out free, or charged at cost only by those you term as ''TRUE'' Electricians,'' then I think the term money-spinner is appropriate for EICRs.
What more can there be to explain?

By that logic any true landlord should offer accommodation for free or at cost because they should be only concerned about people having places to stay. Any profit made from being a landlord must make them rip off merchants out to profiteer off the back of tenants. What a money spinner eh ?

......

 

[shanky887614]

Murdoch.

Surely you can grasp something as simple as that.
Are you trying to send me up?

Here it is again anyway - ''A money-spinner is a source of profit.''

have you even looked at an eicr form? it doesnt take 5mins to fill them in you know

 

[Merv]

Mine does the same. Try clicking the A/A icon button on the left of the icon bar - this should cure it. Daz

Thanks DPG. That's done the trick.

 

[Dave OCD]

I seem to have caused some offence to a few on here judging by their personal comments towards me. I shan't waste my time answering them.

That is not the way to debate issues.


It also appears that my point about mandatory EICRs has been spectacularly missed by more than one, and they think I have something against safety and EICRs.
This is not my view at all.

I see EICRs as insurance against certain litigation where landlords are concerned.

Sensible landlords already ensure they have one for every property they let.
They're cheap enough anyway if you know where to get them from.

What I'm against is forcing landlords to jump through hoops and criminalizing those who get caught out by the red tape and petty rules that invariably go with any legislation that requires action to avoid prosecution.

Part P was a Godsend to the electrical trade in general with the extra work it has created, and for trivial gains in safety. If any at all in most cases.
That's why this government has watered down some of the legislation concerning Part P. and are soft on enforcement.
Notifying work done and logging it all down at the council offices for God's sake - how ridiculous can you get in wasting time and money?
Yet it still exits

I see compulsory EICRs in the same vein as writing Part P.into law.
And the shouts for enforcement of it, as simple greed from the vested interest who would profit from the legislation as they have done from the introduction of Part P. as it stands.

By the way, you're not dealing with John Prescott in government now.

Cheap is always best eh Merv ? Does the dodgy mechanic who does MOTs remote from your car also do remote EICRs for you - buy one get one free ?:laugh3:

 

[Octopus]

Murdoch.

Surely you can grasp something as simple as that.
Are you trying to send me up?

Here it is again anyway - ''A money-spinner is a source of profit.''

Based on what?

I do about 1 x EICR per month..

 

[Merv]

''EICR's are not "money-spinners".

Paul,
If you disagree with my definition of the term money-spinner then I suggest you take it up with the Oxford dictionary.

 

[Merv]

''Can someone please give this lad a temporary break.''

eerrmm,,, tempted but we will continue with the conversation (for now).

Well that's the first time I've been bullied by a moderator on a forum for disagreeing with him.

Lol.

 

[Octopus]

So is having your car MOT'ed every 12 months once its 3 years old a money spinner for garages?

 

[Paul.M]

''Can someone please give this lad a temporary break.''

eerrmm,,, tempted but we will continue with the conversation (for now).

Well that's the first time I've been bullied by a moderator on a forum for disagreeing with him.

Lol.

This is not "bullying by a Mod". This is an Electrician posting up on a forum that just happens to be a member of staff. I am a member after all with his own views and opinions. Any debate that I get involved in will not be judged by myself in the staff room (unfair tbh).

If you feel like you have been bullied, I need to report your post and bring it to the Mods & Admins attention. It will be monitored from now. Any complaints, please send any other member of staff a PM.


ps. How many electricians on here make a million quid a year by doing EICR's? = NONE.

 

[shanky887614]

eicr's are cheap your paying for the time and not for loads of material's.

different companies charge different amounts to cover there own costs and a little extra to make it worthwhile

 

[Darkwood]

Merv - Im speaking as a Mod and not a member posting opinions...

Checking you profile you have been a member for nearly 5yrs, you have 30+ posts to your credit over this time reviewing these posts it seems to be a running theme that your are out to grind an axe as you repeatedly show a distaste for the Electrical trade and those who are part of it, now for whatever reason I don't particularly care but you are very quick to categorise and paint the whole trade with the same tainted brush that somehow has edged you to have such opinions, I see throughout this thread that members have given you very valid reasons to some of your complaints about the thread topic but you relentlessly seem ignorant to take these points on board and stubbornly troll out the same repeated viewpoint.

There are good Electricians and bad ones just like there are good Landlords and bad ones so to say we are all out to rip customers off with in your view 'needless certificates' is shortsighted and offensive, the majority of the trade has pride in their workmanship, has respect for their customers safety and that off the property too, and to protect our own backsides issuing a cert' is the only way we can leave a paper trail to ensure if the unfortunate day ever arose and found ourself in court then we could present some form of proof we had complied to regulations and tested our work as safe... on that note it should also be the duty of any landlord to also ensure his tenants are safe within his property re' the Electrical installation and any existing appliances, yes you can say a property is safe all you want but unkess you have the papertrail of proof that you regularly ensure the condition of the electrics hasn't been compromised by say a previous tenant or the condition hasn't naturally deteriated then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court.

Merv - your approach is far from having an open minded debate, you seem set to remain stubborn in your views regardless of any advice or replies this is evident throughtout your post history where the theme has been having a pop at the trade or members, normal debates evolve and move on as viewpoints are expressed, this is not the case with this thread, we are all for a good debate but there is a distinct line between having a good debate and holdng strong views and that of trolling, baiting members and causing keyboard conflicts and IMHO you are now doing that.

It would be in your interest to consider how you post in future and be more open to reason, it will wind members up when you claim that they are out to rip customers off when all we are doing is complying to requests from various people be it estate agents, insurance requests etc to check and installation and report on its condition ... we do not go around knocking on your door saying you have to have your property tested or else.

 

[DPG]

Very well put Darkwood. Summed up nicely. Daz

 

[Hellmooth]

Merv - Im speaking as a Mod and not a member posting opinions...

Checking you profile you have been a member for nearly 5yrs, you have 30+ posts to your credit over this time reviewing these posts it seems to be a running theme that your are out to grind an axe as you repeatedly show a distaste for the Electrical trade and those who are part of it, now for whatever reason I don't particularly care but you are very quick to categorise and paint the whole trade with the same tainted brush that somehow has edged you to have such opinions, I see throughout this thread that members have given you very valid reasons to some of your complaints about the thread topic but you relentlessly seem ignorant to take these points on board and stubbornly troll out the same repeated viewpoint.

There are good Electricians and bad ones just like there are good Landlords and bad ones so to say we are all out to rip customers off with in your view 'needless certificates' is shortsighted and offensive, the majority of the trade has pride in their workmanship, has respect for their customers safety and that off the property too, and to protect our own backsides issuing a cert' is the only way we can leave a paper trail to ensure if the unfortunate day ever arose and found ourself in court then we could present some form of proof we had complied to regulations and tested our work as safe... on that note it should also be the duty of any landlord to also ensure his tenants are safe within his property re' the Electrical installation and any existing appliances, yes you can say a property is safe all you want but unkess you have the papertrail of proof that you regularly ensure the condition of the electrics hasn't been compromised by say a previous tenant or the condition hasn't naturally deteriated then you wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court.

Merv - your approach is far from having an open minded debate, you seem set to remain stubborn in your views regardless of any advice or replies this is evident throughtout your post history where the theme has been having a pop at the trade or members, normal debates evolve and move on as viewpoints are expressed, this is not the case with this thread, we are all for a good debate but there is a distinct line between having a good debate and holdng strong views and that of trolling, baiting members and causing keyboard conflicts and IMHO you are now doing that.

It would be in your interest to consider how you post in future and be more open to reason, it will wind members up when you claim that they are out to rip customers off when all we are doing is complying to requests from various people be it estate agents, insurance requests etc to check and installation and report on its condition ... we do not go around knocking on your door saying you have to have your property tested or else.

Amen to that!

 

[Merv]

It's remarkable how posts get misunderstood and posters get misrepresentedon forums.
Take darkwood's last effort where I am the target of his grandstanding.

As an example:
'we are all out to rip customers off with in your view'needless certificates'


I've never written anything like that

All that nonsense about me and even after I'd posted this earlier:


''It also appears that my point about mandatory EICRs has been spectacularly missedby more than one, and they think I have something against safety and EICRs.
This is not myview at all.

I see EICRs asinsurance against certain litigation where landlords are concerned.

Sensiblelandlords already ensure they have one for every property they let.
They're cheapenough anyway if you know where to get them from.''


And then there's this tripe from Andy78,

You've entered this thread and called electricians ripoff merchants

Can you point out where I've referred to electricians as ''ripoff merchants'' please?

 

[Hellmooth]

Not even worth wasting the time.............that's all folks!

 

[DPG]

He reminds me of that Katy Hopkins woman who just seems to keep coming out with pointless drivel while ever TV companies and newspapers will give her the opportunity. Nothing personal Merv, just my thoughts. Daz

 

[Andy78]

Not even worth wasting the time.............that's all folks!

Think I'll join you.

 

[GMES]

It's remarkable how posts get misunderstood and posters get misrepresentedon forums.
Take darkwood's last effort where I am the target of his grandstanding.

As an example:
'we are all out to rip customers off with in your view'needless certificates'


I've never written anything like that

All that nonsense about me and even after I'd posted this earlier:


''It also appears that my point about mandatory EICRs has been spectacularly missedby more than one, and they think I have something against safety and EICRs.
This is not myview at all.

I see EICRs asinsurance against certain litigation where landlords are concerned.

Sensiblelandlords already ensure they have one for every property they let.
They're cheapenough anyway if you know where to get them from.''


And then there's this tripe from Andy78,

You've entered this thread and called electricians ripoff merchants

Can you point out where I've referred to electricians as ''ripoff merchants'' please?

Merv I have highlighted the relevant parts that showcase your attitude and that will ultimately get you banned, which is close believe me, You are quite clearly baiting members and trolling the forum and it stops now, if you are not going to participate in a grown up manner then don't keep repeating yourself with the same thing.

This is your last warning on the matter, either engage in the thread in the correct manner or I will issue an immediate ban, Your choice.

 

[Sintra]

Merv I have highlighted the relevant parts that showcase your attitude and that will ultimately get you banned, which is close believe me, You are quite clearly baiting members and trolling the forum and it stops now, if you are not going to participate in a grown up manner then don't keep repeating yourself with the same thing.

This is your last warning on the matter, either engage in the thread in the correct manner or I will issue an immediate ban, Your choice.

Too late mate I've just banned him. He had previously been warned.

 

[shanky887614]

can you leave the topic running for a bit.


guys what is a landlord certificate i thought it was the basics ze,zs, visual etc.

ok guys i know some people around here just do ze,zs and make the rest up in the van, what is your experience of this

 

[Octopus]

can you leave the topic running for a bit.


guys what is a landlord certificate i thought it was the basics ze,zs, visual etc.

ok guys i know some people around here just do ze,zs and make the rest up in the van, what is your experience of this

Its an EICR when referred to by the geniuses employed in the estate agency trade!

 

[Andy78]

Its an EICR when referred to by the geniuses employed in the estate agency trade!

Or a worthless NICEIC landlord's visual inspection report.

 

[shanky887614]

Its an EICR when referred to by the geniuses employed in the estate agency trade!

look up at title

 

[Octopus]

Or a worthless NICEIC landlord's visual inspection report.

Did the NICEIC dream this one up?

Not sure of the point of them really!

 

[davesparks]

look up at title

Think you're getting a bit confused here. The title refers to EICRs and landlords as in the actual landlord, not landlords as in the title of a report

 

[Andy78]

Did the NICEIC dream this one up?

Not sure of the point of them really!

Yes although I don't think they print the duplicate certs anymore. I have seen these foul beasts though. The intention was for them to form a visual check with a bit of paperwork for rented properties between periodic inspection and testing or on change of tenant.

Naturally this got abused and cowboys were soon convincing clients that this was the only form they needed. Quick coat of looking at, no testing, £50 please !

This is why some landlords nowadays think that a EICR should cost peanuts and take 30 mins.

Here's the Elecsa version, I can't find any NICEIC examples
http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/C...icates/Domestic-Visual-Inspection-Report.aspx

 

[shanky887614]

Think you're getting a bit confused here. The title refers to EICRs and landlords as in the actual landlord, not landlords as in the title of a report

i was guessing if im honest i can't see the full title on tapatalk

 

[Paul.M]

Yes although I don't think they print the duplicate certs anymore. I have seen these foul beasts though. The intention was for them to form a visual check with a bit of paperwork for rented properties between periodic inspection and testing or on change of tenant.

Naturally this got abused and cowboys were soon convincing clients that this was the only form they needed. Quick coat of looking at, no testing, £50 please !

This is why some landlords nowadays think that a EICR should cost peanuts and take 30 mins.

Here's the Elecsa version, I can't find any NICEIC examples
http://www.elecsa.co.uk/Documents/C...icates/Domestic-Visual-Inspection-Report.aspx

Nail.... head.... hit.....

An EICR is one thing. A visual report is another story.

 

[davesparks]

A local Lettings agent I do bits for has asked me to do PAT and visual inspections for them occasionally. Only when their usual guy isn't available and can I do it for the same price?
I do them, because to be honest their usual price is pretty damned good! But I don't think they like me doing them, because I keep failing things!
What I do for a visual inspection is follow the inspection schedule of an EICR and produce the EICR paperwork with circuit details filled in but no testing.

I've been on callouts to places that the usual guy has supposedly tested. Sometimes to look at faulty appliances with his nice green stickers on them as soon as the tenant has moved in!

 

[Andy78]

A local Lettings agent I do bits for has asked me to do PAT and visual inspections for them occasionally. Only when their usual guy isn't available and can I do it for the same price?
I do them, because to be honest their usual price is pretty damned good! But I don't think they like me doing them, because I keep failing things!
What I do for a visual inspection is follow the inspection schedule of an EICR and produce the EICR paperwork with circuit details filled in but no testing.

I've been on callouts to places that the usual guy has supposedly tested. Sometimes to look at faulty appliances with his nice green stickers on them as soon as the tenant has moved in!

That's fair enough and a lot more thorough than the usual visual.

I did offer "interim" tests myself but only after I had either carried out an EICR or had a fairly recent one to look at. I based it on a visual inspection with Zs and RCD tests. It became that close to an EICR I stopped seeing the point.

 

[Midwest]

This is why you script comes out with missing spaces etc, its coded with a similar software but not identical so when you copy and paste little bits are lost in translation leading to small errors appearing.

As for your other issues if you can express what hardware (laptop, phone etc), what OS and what browser you are using it may be worth admin looking into, as far as I'm aware you are the only one to report this issue about words not appearing and having to type again, your initial copy and paste may alter the font, colour etc settings possibly making the words white if you paste from a page where the background is dark this affect may have locked in as default, Ill have a word with admin' as its not my field and I could have just been talking gobbledygook.

This happens all the time for me Darkwood. I can't cut and paste into the reply window, so it's not that. It seems that not all the key strokes are displayed, hence words get joined together. Doesn't happen when I use my laptop, which uses google chrome. Interestingly, as I've typed these couple of sentences the fault hasn't displaye itse .........spke to soon! I use othe imia forums anddon't experience the fault. I use IE 11, Win 7.

 

[Fox]

This happens all the time for me Darkwood. I can't cut and paste into the reply window, so it's not that. It seems that not all the key strokes are displayed, hence words get joined together. Doesn't happen when I use my laptop, which uses google chrome. Interestingly, as I've typed these couple of sentences the fault hasn't displaye itse .........spke to soon! I use othe imia forums anddon't experience the fault. I use IE 11, Win 7.

I was using the same setup, but I've started using Chrome and I don't have any more issues

 

[Darkwood]

Im on Chrome as I had issues a long time ago with Internet Explorer.. I take it nothing has changed.

 

[Octopus]

If it helps I binned IE due to issues using this forum. Been using Firefox for over 1 year with no issues!

 

[Midwest]

Im on Chrome as I had issues a long time ago with Internet Explorer.. I take it nothing has changed.

Yep it's still the same, I should try something else, but got all my favourites etc set up on my current browser and I can't be a***d to copy them across, so I'll have to put up with it. As I said though, it doesn't happen on a couple of other forums I use with the same format?