Electrical sockets flames from old wiring? (for a friend)

[_q12x_]

This is more an 80's question:
A friend of mine come to me with a bizarre problem that perplexed me. I don't know what to think. And I need some advice from you.
I am not an electrician but I have some electrical knowledge and experience.
He lives in apartment (in a 4 level building)...this kind of concrete beauty:

(these are comunist buildings made in 1960-70-80) so they are pretty old and their respective electrical wiring is as old as the building is.
He said that has 4 electrical sockets in his apartment, that are making flames and smoke every time he is plugging in, any electrical device.
He called in an electrician, and that guy said is "because the wiring is OLD" and all the wiring in the concrete walls must be REPLACED.
The old original wiring is made from aluminium and is thick aproximatively 1cm diameter (he didnt check). They are heavy duty wires in a word. The electrician said they MUST be replaced with copper wires.
I say is total bulshit.
From my knowledge, any flame that are occurring at the socket is because of a short in the device you plug in.
Another reason I can think of but I really have no means to check it, it may be from the outside power supply, that is powering the appartment. So it's the electrical supplier device outside somewhere. This part I am imagining it may be. I dont know for sure.
So, what is your advice and experience with such a problem?
Thank you very much !

 

[littlespark]

Communist??? Or communal buildings???

Tell your friend, if there’s flames and smoke coming from sockets… STOP USING THISE SOCKETS!

If it’s just a bright flash when unplugging, it may be that they are pulling out the plug when the appliance is still on, and drawing power.

If they have been doing that a lot, then, yes the sockets are probably failing anyway.


A “good” electrician will pull out his handy dandy multi function tester and actually take readings from the wires in the wall.

It may be difficult for you, but taking photos of the electrical installation and posting on here, we can give a best guesstimate for age of installation, possible problems, best practice for improvements..etc

Even a photo of the distribution board can give us a lot of information..

 

[littlespark]

Ah… ignore the multi function tester part above. I didn’t realise you were stateside. I don’t believe American electricians use them.

We may not be able to tell condition by viewing photos either, unless @Megawatt really knows his stuff.

 

[_q12x_]

Communist??? Or communal buildings???

Until 1989, we were a communist block here. Very proud of it, haha (sarcastically)
Yes, I am doing exactly this right now, I am going to my friend home, equipped with my trusty multimeter, and a very long - 14meters wire long for testing the cable in the wall continuity. Its my best preparation at this point. Haha.
But thank you so much for your very fast response.

 

[DPG]

Until 1989, we were a communist block here. Very proud of it, haha (sarcastically)
Yes, I am doing exactly this right now, I am going to my friend home, equipped with my trusty multimeter, and a very long - 14meters wire long for testing the cable in the wall continuity. Its my best preparation at this point. Haha.
But thank you so much for your very fast response.

A communist area of New York?

 

[Megawatt]

Until 1989, we were a communist block here. Very proud of it, haha (sarcastically)
Yes, I am doing exactly this right now, I am going to my friend home, equipped with my trusty multimeter, and a very long - 14meters wire long for testing the cable in the wall continuity. Its my best preparation at this point. Haha.
But thank you so much for your very fast response.

Is every receptacle shooting flames then as stated by @littlespark unplugging loads being used will have an arch. Common sense tells me since you have aluminum wiring then all the receptacles need to be took out of the wall and tighten up all the wires. At this time of year people use space heaters which really heats up the wiring. Your electrician needs to break out his meter and check your voltage first. It sounds to me like this would be an easy fix. The wiring in the walls should be fine. If he is a good electrician he also take the wiring loose and check continuity between the receptacles.

 

[Megawatt]

Is every receptacle shooting flames then as stated by @littlespark unplugging loads being used will have an arch. Common sense tells me since you have aluminum wiring then all the receptacles need to be took out of the wall and tighten up all the wires. At this time of year people use space heaters which really heats up the wiring. Your electrician needs to break out his meter and check your voltage first. It sounds to me like this would be an easy fix. The wiring in the walls should be fine. If he is a good electrician he also take the wiring loose and check continuity between the receptacles.

Put a tone generator on your wiring to check continuity. As stated above you could help us a lot by taking pictures of inside his panel

 

[_q12x_]

--Problem solved--. An interesting story as well.
His mother plug in a washing machine into the same electrical socket for about 8 years. I opened the socket and take it out, to discover it was made from one big ceramic element inside, for isolation purposes, but it was shattered pieces now inside. Probably from forced plug ins along the time. The contacts seem OK, where you screw the wall wires,I didnt see that much play in there, but I didnt give it a thorough inspection, I took the wires out a bit too quickly. Again, it was shattered as well. But nothing was touching wrongly. Everything seem fine.
Only one aluminium wire (left one) was having its isolation heavily burned, and melted a little bit. The mother cut off the power of the washing machine in time. (she is using the same electrical socket for ~8 years).
The melted plastic isolation was melted in the oposite side plastic, they joined toghether, but on the same wire. I drag it out from its plastic melted shape and reveal the full wire. You can see the bottom and the upper side of the wire are burned but its middle isn't !!! - because it was like an O there.

I measured the wires before and after the change, and they all showing 230VAC. They are ok.
I installed a new power socket and screwed good the wires in there.
- My educated guess says that the wire was playing in the screw socket, and got hot from loose contact (over 8 years), until it got hot enough to melt the plastic, and because everything is pushed together, the 2 sides of the same wire got close enough and melted together.
After I installed the new electrical socket, I tested the washing machine for 30min running as usual.
After this time I put my palm on the wall and on the plastic case to feel if is hot or warm. It was cold, sign that everything is as 'new'.
Oh, and I was impressed that the power socket didn't melted at all inside, but that was because the ceramic body shielded and directed the heat towards the wire. And also the plug-in wire was not melted either,or its cord, only the wire inside the socket.
I put in this entire story and the solving of it here, because the way they explained the situation was terrible and absurd. They said that the electrical guy wanted to take out the wires from the wall, and also they had multiple power sockets with numerous sparks and problems. In reality it turned out to be only this major incident because of the big consumer (the washing machine) , and the other power outlets were having its own little electrical tweaks and stories, one was used to power a old black brick transformer for a laptop, that every time you plug it in, was making a spark, and that is usually comming from inside this little 'sh*it' filtering capacitor in the input. And another power socket with a safe plastic guard inside the plug holes, that sometimes was working, sometimes was not working, (letting you insert any plug inside it) so I eliminated that safe plastic element usually for kids and cats, to leave direct path of the holes. Also it was having an earth pin bend inside the entire socket hole, and they were complaining that nothing get powered from that socket either. I loughed and show them the problem, by bending the earth pin who was physically blocking the full insert of the input plug. That was ... something. Haha.
One they tell you and another thing is on the place. Oh boy. But I was upset on that individual that wanted to perform a cement 'disco-fun' hole, to take out the old very good and solid wires. What people...
Another free work with soul satisfaction of the things well made.
Anyway, mister @Megawatt was wright with his "tighten up all the wires"
Thanks for your rapid responses.
Have a nice 2022 year.

 

[Megawatt]

--Problem solved--. An interesting story as well.
His mother plug in a washing machine into the same electrical socket for about 8 years. I opened the socket and take it out, to discover it was made from one big ceramic element inside, for isolation purposes, but it was shattered pieces now inside. Probably from forced plug ins along the time. The contacts seem OK, where you screw the wall wires,I didnt see that much play in there, but I didnt give it a thorough inspection, I took the wires out a bit too quickly. Again, it was shattered as well. But nothing was touching wrongly. Everything seem fine.
Only one aluminium wire (left one) was having its isolation heavily burned, and melted a little bit. The mother cut off the power of the washing machine in time. (she is using the same electrical socket for ~8 years).
The melted plastic isolation was melted in the oposite side plastic, they joined toghether, but on the same wire. I drag it out from its plastic melted shape and reveal the full wire. You can see the bottom and the upper side of the wire are burned but its middle isn't !!! - because it was like an O there.
View attachment 94108
I measured the wires before and after the change, and they all showing 230VAC. They are ok.
I installed a new power socket and screwed good the wires in there.
- My educated guess says that the wire was playing in the screw socket, and got hot from loose contact (over 8 years), until it got hot enough to melt the plastic, and because everything is pushed together, the 2 sides of the same wire got close enough and melted together.
After I installed the new electrical socket, I tested the washing machine for 30min running as usual.
After this time I put my palm on the wall and on the plastic case to feel if is hot or warm. It was cold, sign that everything is as 'new'.
Oh, and I was impressed that the power socket didn't melted at all inside, but that was because the ceramic body shielded and directed the heat towards the wire. And also the plug-in wire was not melted either,or its cord, only the wire inside the socket.
I put in this entire story and the solving of it here, because the way they explained the situation was terrible and absurd. They said that the electrical guy wanted to take out the wires from the wall, and also they had multiple power sockets with numerous sparks and problems. In reality it turned out to be only this major incident because of the big consumer (the washing machine) , and the other power outlets were having its own little electrical tweaks and stories, one was used to power a old black brick transformer for a laptop, that every time you plug it in, was making a spark, and that is usually comming from inside this little 'sh*it' filtering capacitor in the input. And another power socket with a safe plastic guard inside the plug holes, that sometimes was working, sometimes was not working, (letting you insert any plug inside it) so I eliminated that safe plastic element usually for kids and cats, to leave direct path of the holes. Also it was having an earth pin bend inside the entire socket hole, and they were complaining that nothing get powered from that socket either. I loughed and show them the problem, by bending the earth pin who was physically blocking the full insert of the input plug. That was ... something. Haha.
One they tell you and another thing is on the place. Oh boy. But I was upset on that individual that wanted to perform a cement 'disco-fun' hole, to take out the old very good and solid wires. What people...
Anyway, mister @Megawatt was wright with his "tighten up all the wires"
Thanks for your rapid responses.
Have a nice 2022 year.

I’m proud of you my friend. Sometimes you cant listen to no one and you have to go check it yourself.

 

[_q12x_]

I’m proud of you my friend. Sometimes you cant listen to no one and you have to go check it yourself.

Thank you !

 

[marconi]

Hello and happy new year. Well done. You demonstrated your dogged determination once again to solve a problem. (I cannot help though worrying whether you check wires are safe before touching them and what you use to do that. There is plenty of advice available from people in the EF on the best way to check using which devices.)

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/dogged-determination#:~:text=If%20you%20describe%20someone's%20actions,it%20becomes%20difficult%20or%20dangerous.

Anyway - I wondered if you had an update on your interesting wings project?

 

[_q12x_]

Oooh, thank you, thank you mister @marconi , always nice to hear from you ! Hello from Romania and a very good year 2022 from me to you, with dedication ! Haha. I always love your involvement and your spirit !

I cannot help though worrying whether you check wires are safe before touching them and what you use to do that.

Well....here is how I did it:
- Yes, I was equipped from my home with a longass wire cord, actually I had 4 extension cables, but sum up to 14meters. I actually measured them with my reel meter. And they were a bit heavy for my comfort to transport. I planned to use this very long wire, to check continuity in the wall wires. Basically from 1 end of the appartment to another end of the appartment. But it didnt come to this last extreme measure, because I used my old and trusty DMM (digital multimeter) to check if alternative voltage is present at the wall socket contacts. And it was. So that told me the wire inside the wall is well and fine, no need to touch it in any perverted way, like that other guy suggested before me. What a shitbrain that guy. It really annoyed me. For one moment, from my friend and his mother explanations, they really made me believe that is ---the same--- problem for each electric socket in the house, doesn't matter where you plug something in which socket, that power socket will burst in flames and sparks and loud sounds, and they all very afraid of this invisible dragon inside their electrical sockets. This is their ways of explaining the problem in the very beginning, and for a moment I thought, the proverbial "what the hell"? Really? That was the moment that I start to write here on this forum with my OQ (Original Question). That's the price that you pay when you are too trusty and actually believe every word your stupid friend is telling you. He is an electrical moron in general (but not only electrical). So based on his "best explanation" of the situation, I told him, it must be from a certain consumer, but he keep saying "no,no, its the same everywhere"... and that was extremely intriguing for me especially, because I am not a certified or even schooled electrician, I am a hobby electrician, its the stuff I know on the side of my usual stuff, and I know I dont know everything, so I consider it a very good lesson to get into it, very intriguing problem - now, in retrospect, I am a bit dissapointed of the real cause, I really wished it was like I believed in the begining, that every power socket in the house will get kaboom. Haha. Here is a funny episode, I was so entuziastic on the problem, that when I stepped into their house, I asked which is the principal problem socket and his mother pointed me "that one" and I put the washing machine in the socket to see for myself when and how is making the kaboom, and of course it didnt do anything, but his mother was all "no,no, it will go in flames, kaboom" while hugging the other wall and watching me from behind it, only her eyes were visible. Haha. Woman's, they panic easily, right? Haha.
So this was my very cheap and efficient way of diagnosing and solving the problem.

There is plenty of advice available from people in the EF on the best way to check using which devices.

Yes, I am all ears! I am very curious how you guys were diagnosing this issue, especially in the beginning, when you were believing your stupid friend that ---every socket in the house--- has the same problem as he insistently repeated to you. I am more curious what is your routine, dont invent something that you dont use, just tell me -what you usually do with what you have. Also what you wish to have more that what you already have.

Anyway - I wondered if you had an update on your interesting wings project?

(thank you for the expression "dogged determination" explanation) - I really had no idea of its existence and usage. And is a bit strange how it sounds. I am -literally- reading it, not contextual, so that's the hard part for me. Even with your examples from the link, still, weird for me.
- Yes, my led wings project... Very beautiful, right? .... I am sorry to cut the last time conversation with you. I notice you continued to build something further. Please show me.
- At this point, my led wings project is official closed. In the sense that yes, is still IN USE, still working, and proudly I am bragging: without any errors or problems of absolutely any kind along this time. I am also still using the same remote control with the same battery in it, and I am smiling every time I am remotely closing my room light from my chair. Aaaah. Life. Haha. Extremely practical and nice to look at, especially when is my own work, my own baby.
The only issue I still have, is it's temperature dependent sensitivity and also its sphere of sensing around the antenna.
By "temperature dependent sensitivity" I mean that --only-- in the middle of the summer, june-july, when its very hot atmosphere and also very dry air, this circuit is Hyper-Sensitive. I added a potentiometer to dial down and up specifically its sensibility. My American friend on the other forum was laughing back then when we were in the flames of the project, he thought I will dial that potentiometer every time the temperature is changing, but that was how he was imagining. In reality, ONLY in the very and most hot days is too damn sensitive. The rest of the time, like 95% of the entire year, I dial its sensitivity in the middle, and now in the winter, I increase its sensitivity. But if you count how many times you have to deal with that potentiometer in a year, its exactly when the season is changing, like 2 or 3 times per year, which is very acceptable. For me it is. I dont mind. I do have a wicked idea to use a PIC mcu... but I had some problems on the PIC forums, I mean in a sense I managed to gather the most that I was interested, but in general, unsatisfied of the evolution that happened there. Those guys that are saying they 'help you', they are making fun in reality from a guy like me, that wants to learn more in depth the misteries of the PIC. I remained with a VERY bitter taste from the discussion with them. Maybe I am the only one who get it wrong like that with them, but it was not fair. Anyway.... the full side of the glass, i'ts good what I manage to get from them, at least. So... yes, it might be a solution to even bypass the potentiometer manual dialing, and automate completly temperature sensitivity normalization functionability of the circuit. Ghhh, not my best english but it will have to do. Haha.
Im already explaining too much and too many... sorry for the long thing. Thank you for reading !

 

[brianmoooore]

View attachment 94108

Is that a blue neutral and two brown lives (hot) ? 120V - 0 - 120V
UK/European wiring colours in the USA?

 

[_q12x_]

To mister @brianmoooore
White (left) and white (middle) and blue (right).
The white (middle) is the ground. white (left) and blue (right) are the 230V here in Romania.
Yes 120V - 0 - 120V. You are right. In america must be 60 - 0 - 60, right? but with bigger amperage than here. In the end its the same power distribution, which im not sure how much it is per appartment or home...im guessing 1or2kW?
Like I said, its not the standard of today, its what they had back then, in the 80's comunism when they were following an agenda of rapid urbanization. There were not that serious rules like today. I know a little from that time. Only UE impose color coding rules, and we followed them but from 2010 i think... i really didnt give attention to this detail. Im not sure in america if your color codes are the same as before 2010 or 2000.
I know for sure UK (also the entire UE) color codes are different than in america color codes..which is not cool if you ask me. Im watching -big clive- on youtube and he is pointing this difference very clearly.

 

[DPG]

Is that a blue neutral and two brown lives (hot) ? 120V - 0 - 120V
UK/European wiring colours in the USA?

He's from Romania, not the US.

 

[brianmoooore]

There's a New York in Romania?

 

[DPG]

There's a New York in Romania?

Apparently so!

More words here

 

[marconi]

q12 good morning. I cannot remember if I posted some video clips on my pulsed IR proximity switch in the other post we were in discussion.

T save time I have attached 3 video clips below. The first shows the circuit to pulse the IR led illuminators at 25kHz. The second shows the received and summed signal from the IR photodiodes in yellow and the output of a peak voltage detector in blue on the scope. The final clip shows the output of the peak voltage detector driving the comparators and their red or green led.

The next phase was to look at the background IR signal as received by the IR photodiodes and use that to adjust the thresholds to the comparators in order to minimise background IR switching on the red or green LEDs along the ruler. I bought the components but had to put the project aside to tackle some other projects and real-life problems.

regards Marconi

 

[Megawatt]

Oooh, thank you, thank you mister @marconi , always nice to hear from you ! Hello from Romania and a very good year 2022 from me to you, with dedication ! Haha. I always love your involvement and your spirit !

Well....here is how I did it:
- Yes, I was equipped from my home with a longass wire cord, actually I had 4 extension cables, but sum up to 14meters. I actually measured them with my reel meter. And they were a bit heavy for my comfort to transport. I planned to use this very long wire, to check continuity in the wall wires. Basically from 1 end of the appartment to another end of the appartment. But it didnt come to this last extreme measure, because I used my old and trusty DMM (digital multimeter) to check if alternative voltage is present at the wall socket contacts. And it was. So that told me the wire inside the wall is well and fine, no need to touch it in any perverted way, like that other guy suggested before me. What a shitbrain that guy. It really annoyed me. For one moment, from my friend and his mother explanations, they really made me believe that is ---the same--- problem for each electric socket in the house, doesn't matter where you plug something in which socket, that power socket will burst in flames and sparks and loud sounds, and they all very afraid of this invisible dragon inside their electrical sockets. This is their ways of explaining the problem in the very beginning, and for a moment I thought, the proverbial "what the hell"? Really? That was the moment that I start to write here on this forum with my OQ (Original Question). That's the price that you pay when you are too trusty and actually believe every word your stupid friend is telling you. He is an electrical moron in general (but not only electrical). So based on his "best explanation" of the situation, I told him, it must be from a certain consumer, but he keep saying "no,no, its the same everywhere"... and that was extremely intriguing for me especially, because I am not a certified or even schooled electrician, I am a hobby electrician, its the stuff I know on the side of my usual stuff, and I know I dont know everything, so I consider it a very good lesson to get into it, very intriguing problem - now, in retrospect, I am a bit dissapointed of the real cause, I really wished it was like I believed in the begining, that every power socket in the house will get kaboom. Haha. Here is a funny episode, I was so entuziastic on the problem, that when I stepped into their house, I asked which is the principal problem socket and his mother pointed me "that one" and I put the washing machine in the socket to see for myself when and how is making the kaboom, and of course it didnt do anything, but his mother was all "no,no, it will go in flames, kaboom" while hugging the other wall and watching me from behind it, only her eyes were visible. Haha. Woman's, they panic easily, right? Haha.
So this was my very cheap and efficient way of diagnosing and solving the problem.

Yes, I am all ears! I am very curious how you guys were diagnosing this issue, especially in the beginning, when you were believing your stupid friend that ---every socket in the house--- has the same problem as he insistently repeated to you. I am more curious what is your routine, dont invent something that you dont use, just tell me -what you usually do with what you have. Also what you wish to have more that what you already have.

(thank you for the expression "dogged determination" explanation) - I really had no idea of its existence and usage. And is a bit strange how it sounds. I am -literally- reading it, not contextual, so that's the hard part for me. Even with your examples from the link, still, weird for me.
- Yes, my led wings project... Very beautiful, right? .... I am sorry to cut the last time conversation with you. I notice you continued to build something further. Please show me.
- At this point, my led wings project is official closed. In the sense that yes, is still IN USE, still working, and proudly I am bragging: without any errors or problems of absolutely any kind along this time. I am also still using the same remote control with the same battery in it, and I am smiling every time I am remotely closing my room light from my chair. Aaaah. Life. Haha. Extremely practical and nice to look at, especially when is my own work, my own baby.
The only issue I still have, is it's temperature dependent sensitivity and also its sphere of sensing around the antenna.
By "temperature dependent sensitivity" I mean that --only-- in the middle of the summer, june-july, when its very hot atmosphere and also very dry air, this circuit is Hyper-Sensitive. I added a potentiometer to dial down and up specifically its sensibility. My American friend on the other forum was laughing back then when we were in the flames of the project, he thought I will dial that potentiometer every time the temperature is changing, but that was how he was imagining. In reality, ONLY in the very and most hot days is too damn sensitive. The rest of the time, like 95% of the entire year, I dial its sensitivity in the middle, and now in the winter, I increase its sensitivity. But if you count how many times you have to deal with that potentiometer in a year, its exactly when the season is changing, like 2 or 3 times per year, which is very acceptable. For me it is. I dont mind. I do have a wicked idea to use a PIC mcu... but I had some problems on the PIC forums, I mean in a sense I managed to gather the most that I was interested, but in general, unsatisfied of the evolution that happened there. Those guys that are saying they 'help you', they are making fun in reality from a guy like me, that wants to learn more in depth the misteries of the PIC. I remained with a VERY bitter taste from the discussion with them. Maybe I am the only one who get it wrong like that with them, but it was not fair. Anyway.... the full side of the glass, i'ts good what I manage to get from them, at least. So... yes, it might be a solution to even bypass the potentiometer manual dialing, and automate completly temperature sensitivity normalization functionability of the circuit. Ghhh, not my best english but it will have to do. Haha.
Im already explaining too much and too many... sorry for the long thing. Thank you for reading !

Let that be a lesson on going to the American electrical forum. I’m an American and I’ve been on that forum before and they are a bunch of smart asses. I’m very happy with this forum and these folks try and help you and not make fun of you. Always come to us for advice.

 

[marconi]

q12 All the folk who have replied so far to your opening thread are respected good guys whom you can trust to provide advice. I would take it. I am not getting involved in the subject matter of your opening post.

Marconi