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Hello,

I applied for a retrospective completion certificate for kitchen relocation. The work was done about 7 years ago. The building standard surveyor says that I need to install interlinked smoke and heat alarms to comply with the new fire regulations. I got in touch with different electricians and they recommend installing wireless interlinked detectors.

However, the surveyor said that "the smoke detectors are required to be hard wired and interlinked when the works form part of a Building Warrant application. Battery powered alarms are not suitable."

I read the government "Fire and smoke alarms : changes to the law" documents and it says that wireless interlinked alarms are acceptable. I don't understand why the surveyor is insisting on hard wired alarms.

Any thoughts?

Many thanks in advance.

 
Legacy regulations that haven’t caught up with the new products.

Building regs also assume if you’re doing a lot of work that requires building control, there’s no reason NOT to have it hardwired… that doesn’t help retrospectively.

You might be able to get a mains power to the detector, but use radio to link inbetween? That might be acceptable to them?
 
Legacy regulations that haven’t caught up with the new products.

Building regs also assume if you’re doing a lot of work that requires building control, there’s no reason NOT to have it hardwired… that doesn’t help retrospectively.

You might be able to get a mains power to the detector, but use radio to link inbetween? That might be acceptable to them?
As I said the kitchen work was completed 7 years ago. so there's no building work involved now. just fire alarms. The surveyor seems harch not to allow wireless ones even though the new regulation recommend them.

I thought about hard wiring one then wirelessly linking others to it but the surveyor I think wants every alarm to be hard wired.
 
Just to help people who might be asking same question.
It turns out that the surveyor is using BS5839(link below) which states that detectors must be hard wired etc. The Scottish government guidelines on website are confusing people like me. I am glad I am not an electrician but through my job, I had my share of confusing initiatives, guidelines and buraucratic nonsense.

Best wishes.

 
We may be talking on cross purposes here, is it Mains wiring the surveyor is insisting upon, i.e. the type of alarm that requires mains connection to charge the Battery and maintain its 10year life, or is it the interlink that the surveyor is insisting is hard wired?

Your avatar says Manchester, but you are quoting Scottish regulations, where is the property?
 
Sorry Manchester was along time ago. Now Edinburgh.

The surveyor want hard wired detectors but interlinking can be through RF.

The good honest electrician doing the work said that he installed 100s of grade F alarms and he doesn't understand why the surveyor says this " Unfortunately, the detectors are required to be hard wired, battery detectors do not meet the requirements of BS 5839. There is an option for radio linked alarms but these still require mains power.""

So to make life easy I asked the elctrician to install hard wired Aico EI3014 heat detectors and Aico EI3016 optical smoke alarms. He said he will get in touch with the surveyor to see why grade F are not allowed.
 
And herein lies the problem. There are multiple sets of standards when it comes to domestic fire detection and alarm systems in dwellings in England. Which leads to some building inspectors insisting on compliance with BS5839 part 6, which is not a statutory document. The only statutory document is the 2015 regulations for smoke alarms in dwellings, which doesn't really go far enough in my opinion, as it only requires that smoke alarms be fitted in certain locations within tenanted dwellings, but does not say mains powered battery powered, not does it say they should be interlinked.
I personally choose to recommend to my landlord clients that they work to BS5839, as fire safety is such an important consideration.
 
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Sorry Manchester was along time ago. Now Edinburgh.

The surveyor want hard wired detectors but interlinking can be through RF.

The good honest electrician doing the work said that he installed 100s of grade F alarms and he doesn't understand why the surveyor says this " Unfortunately, the detectors are required to be hard wired, battery detectors do not meet the requirements of BS 5839. There is an option for radio linked alarms but these still require mains power.""

So to make life easy I asked the elctrician to install hard wired Aico EI3014 heat detectors and Aico EI3016 optical smoke alarms. He said he will get in touch with the surveyor to see why grade F are not allowed.
Why have you not specified Ei3024's?
 
I really feel sorry for anyone trying to understand the guidelines. They are all confusing and contradicting each other. Just like "Curriculum for Excellence" a load of tosh.

I think safety is the last concern for the people above. Everytime there are new products you get new legislation. Back handers and greed are always involved.
 
Can't agree with that, legislation is not driven by products its driven by experience and circumstance's arising, product are then produced to fit in with the legislation, not the other way around.
 
Why have you not specified Ei3024's?
Ei3024 are for both heat and CO2. The boiler is in a different room not in the kitchen and there's a CO2 detector there. The oven in the kitchen is induction and oven electric.
Can't agree with that, legislation is not driven by products its driven by experience and circumstance's arising, product are then produced to fit in with the legislation, not the other way around.
Legislations need to be clear and fair. For example interlinked wireless alarms with tamper proof 10 year lithium Ion batteries are accepted/allowed by the Scottish governmentand and they say prefered by home owners , it should apply to everyone, it is not the prerogative of the council to pick and chose which legislation to apply to each person.

Grade D2 for some, Grade F for others etc. I am not an electrician nor do I u fully understand the legislation. But for a surveyor to insist on hard wired alarms while Grade F is accepted is very unfair to me. As simple as that.
 
Not quite right, the heat and CO detector is the Ei3028, the Ei3024 is a Heat and Smoke detector, when connected to the mains they have a ten year back up battery.

I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.
 
There’s been a number of threads on the new scottish legislation, but I can see the council digging their heels in if you start arguing about using the 10 yr battery units.
 
There’s been a number of threads on the new scottish legislation, but I can see the council digging their heels in if you start arguing about using the 10 yr battery units.
If it went to court I can't see councils having a leg to stand on. You just have to prove you're providing the adequate level of protection for the stated grade in 5839-6. PRS/HMO types may have additional licensing requirements but you could challenge so long as you can prove you're providing adequate protection for the grade of system required.

If the council try and insist on a particular implementation (mains & 10year sealed backup Vs just a sealed 10yr unit), they have to provide evidence to support it.
 
...
I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.
This, sort of.

The current regulations are clear and available for free on the Scottish government website.

However, they are current regulations, when the building work was undertaken ~7 years ago, they were not in place at that time.

The inspector may be applying the standards as identified by the warrant at the original time.

There is of course the possibility that he is not up to date with the recent legislation!

To the OP, you could ask him the direct question via email "we expected to adhere to the Scottish government's published legislation in respect of fire and smoke alarms ( Fire and smoke alarms: changes to the law - https://www.gov.scot/publications/fire-and-smoke-alarms-in-scottish-homes/), could you please confirm your instructions that these are not to be followed and instead a wired system is to be installed and the 10 year sealed battery type defined as acceptable in the legislation is not acceptable to you"

Or similar.

Of course this is only really worthwhile if you have indeed used suitable alarms i.e
Not removable battery types etc.


EDIT:
don't forget the Scottish building regulations do actually recommend wired in detectors, but local authorities do have the ability to apply local policies and/or accept variations where a strong and reasonable argument is made.
 
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Not quite right, the heat and CO detector is the Ei3028, the Ei3024 is a Heat and Smoke detector, when connected to the mains they have a ten year back up battery.

I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.
@Mike Johnson @brianmoooore You're both correct my mistake.
@Julie. Sorry I am done with the surveyor.I'll do what he asks and carry on with my life.
 
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I think the legislation is clear, it's the interpretation br the councils that's skewed.
Agreed... a classic example of this was when schools banned the playing of conkers. The schools (the council) claimed that it was due to H&S regulations... which made no reference to conkers whatsoever. It was actually the risk of someone prosecuting the school should there be an accident that prompted them to ban the traditional school game !
 

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