Home Reports - not worth the paper?

[Selfmade]

Hi folks

I recently found this

above a customer's bathroom false ceiling, when I went to replace some obviously unsuitable downlights with suitable ones. This mess was in use, supplying said downlights. Naturally I rewired the downlights, having agreed a price with the customer.

Now, the customer had bought the property only a few months ago, had had no electrical work done since, and the Home Report (Scotland only if I remember correctly) said the electrics were fine, with no C1s or C2s. the customer was very good and accepted my advice rather than choosing to believe the home report.

So, I thought I'd start a thread to see what are others' experiences/opinions of Home Reports.

 

[telectrix]

most reports have a disclaimer that cables under floors or in voids have not been inspected. all depends on the limitations of the report and, crucially, what the customer was prepared to pay.

 

[Risteard]

As telectrix has pointed out, it's unreasonable to assume that every defect could or would be detected. This does not negate the need to have an electrical installation periodically inspected and tested.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

I don't know what a home report covers but this is the reason I increasingly feel I'd rather not be doing EICR's. As already said it's simply not possible to find every non compliance no matter how careful you are, given the constraint of time, reasonable cost and the complexity of modern installations.
How long before one of us is dumped on from a very great height because we've missed something dangerous which rears it's head not long after a satisfactory report is issued?

 

[Selfmade]

Some interesting points and broad consensus. I can well see the concerns here. But I can't help feeling that the person inspecting this should at least have noticed the downlights were unsuitable for a bathroom. And I suspect any of us here would probably have had our suspicians raised by this and might have decided to pull one down and take a look above that ceiling (the photo was taken through one of the downlight holes, I didn't have to remove any ceiling material).

 

[Risteard]

People can be reluctant to pull down downlights unless they need to as it's far too easy to damage the ceiling/paintwork around it. Personally speaking, I prefer to drop a percentage to see how they have been connected - but as I say I dread doing it.

 

[Octopus]

But I can't help feeling that the person inspecting this should at least have noticed the downlights were unsuitable for a bathroom.

What made the existing downlights unsuitable?

 

[Selfmade]

What made the existing downlights unsuitable?

They were regular non-IP rated downlights. While they were outside the zones, they'd still have to be specified as suitable for a bathroom by the manufacturers, which, in the absence of the original packaging or instructions, I don't believe these were. There was nothing to stop steam getting drawn up past the lamps and condensing on the terminals causing a short circuit or dripping onto the hot lamp causing it to crack.

 

[Selfmade]

People can be reluctant to pull down downlights unless they need to as it's far too easy to damage the ceiling/paintwork around it. Personally speaking, I prefer to drop a percentage to see how they have been connected - but as I say I dread doing it.

Fair point and I'd probably only take a percentage down myself, at least initially, but everywhere I looked the wiring for these was a mess, with random bits of flex joined here and there and literally stretched between terminals. You'd only have to take one down to see it wasn't right.

 

[polo1]

While I agree that Home Reports have mostly proved to be worthless pieces of paper based on what they actually tell prospective purchasers, they were never intended to deliver the level of information which, for example, an EICR does.
The most commonly commented on electrical "defect" that I see in these reports is where there is a 3036 board.
Typically they always suggest prospective purchasers get a structural engineer/ electrician/ building surveyor/ rot specialist if there is a hint of a problem. Legal requirement but mostly a waste of time!

 

[Octopus]

They were regular non-IP rated downlights. While they were outside the zones, they'd still have to be specified as suitable for a bathroom by the manufacturers, which, in the absence of the original packaging or instructions, I don't believe these were. There was nothing to stop steam getting drawn up past the lamps and condensing on the terminals causing a short circuit or dripping onto the hot lamp causing it to crack.

Hum ... Not sure I agree with you. Outside zones ip rated are not required, other than by good practice ...

 

[Selfmade]

While I agree that Home Reports have mostly proved to be worthless pieces of paper based on what they actually tell prospective purchasers, they were never intended to deliver the level of information which, for example, an EICR does.

This is much as I had thought - so I was surprised when my customer referred to there being 'no C1s or C2s' on the home report - I had previously got the impression they would just say whether or not there was a satisfactory EICR and advise the buyer to get one if not.

Typically they always suggest prospective purchasers get a structural engineer/ electrician/ building surveyor/ rot specialist if there is a hint of a problem. Legal requirement but mostly a waste of time!

And more money to surveyors for stating the obvious.

 

[ferg]

Mostly a waste of paper in my experience.

As Polo said although it's no substitute for an EICR and structural survey it was never meant to be.

 

[Selfmade]

Hum ... Not sure I agree with you. Outside zones ip rated are not required, other than by good practice ...

I'm not good at remembering reg. nos., but I'm pretty sure that while they don't have to be IP rated outside the zones, they do have to be stated by mfrs. as 'suitable for a bathroom', and from what I have seen of this design of downlights (when I've bought similar ones for other rooms) they would not have been stated as suitable, even for outside the zones.

 

[Selfmade]

Mostly a waste of paper in my experience.

As Polo said although it's no substitute for an EICR and structural survey it was never meant to be.

I can't help thinking the money spent on home reports would be better spent making simple leaflets telling buyers what to look for - a recent EICR being an example. But then of course the money would go to printers and not surveyors, lawyers and estate agents.

 

[Octopus]

I'm not good at remembering reg. nos., but I'm pretty sure that while they don't have to be IP rated outside the zones, they do have to be stated by mfrs. as 'suitable for a bathroom', and from what I have seen of this design of downlights (when I've bought similar ones for other rooms) they would not have been stated as suitable, even for outside the zones.

I don't think you will find such a reg ......

 

[Octopus]

I'm not good at remembering reg. nos., but I'm pretty sure that while they don't have to be IP rated outside the zones, they do have to be stated by mfrs. as 'suitable for a bathroom', and from what I have seen of this design of downlights (when I've bought similar ones for other rooms) they would not have been stated as suitable, even for outside the zones.

I don't think you will find such a reg ......

 

[Selfmade]

I don't think you will find such a reg ......

I'll have a look if I get time and come back on here if I find one. Not just now though - it's getting late. But I take it from your earlier comment that you personally would fit IP ones in a bathroom even outside the zones?

 

[Des 56]

Any equipment has to be suitable for the conditions its likely to encounter
512.2.1

 

[Selfmade]

Any equipment has to be suitable for the conditions its likely to encounter
512.2.1

And the lazy person's way of determining this is to read the instructions

 

[Des 56]

And the lazy person's way of determining this is to read the instrustions

Pardon me if you will,I was only trying to help with a reg number for you

 

[Octopus]

But I take it from your earlier comment that you personally would fit IP ones in a bathroom even outside the zones?

Absolutely correct, but that is me adopting a standard by which I will install .....but coding non ip rated lights outside zones is not something I would do ......I would and do comment on them.

I am doing an EICR in a couple of weeks, when I visited the flat before I agreed to do it, I noted a non ip rated light in a wet room, well inside zone 2 .... My comment at the time will ensure that its been changed before I do the report

 

[Selfmade]

Pardon me if you will,I was only trying to help with a reg number for you

Sorry Des! I was referring to myself as 'the lazy person'! I was also agreeing with you and jokingly hinting that the 'non-lazy person' might do their own type testing. I think 'one way of complying' with reg. 512.2.1 in the case of bathroom lights would be to choose ones specified by the mfrs. as suitable - then one's covered oneself, as if it ends up with water in you can point to the specifications/instructions.

 

[Selfmade]

Absolutely correct, but that is me adopting a standard by which I will install .....but coding non ip rated lights outside zones is not something I would do ......I would and do comment on them.

I am doing an EICR in a couple of weeks, when I visited the flat before I agreed to do it, I noted a non ip rated light in a wet room, well inside zone 2 .... My comment at the time will ensure that its been changed before I do the report

Sounds good - I hope they gave you the job of changing them!

 

[Octopus]

Sounds good - I hope they gave you the job of changing them!

The homeowner is going to change the offending light before I do the report ...........