Discuss Install downlights - No CPC in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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There are no existing downlights there, and if there were I would replace standard (metal) downlights requiring a CPC with intergrated downlights not requiring a CPC (as I've previously done), just as I would replace a metal ceiling light for a class 2 fitting without a second thought if no cpc was present.

I also thought you couldn't borrow a conductor from another circuit, whether this be L, N or a CPC.
 
I also thought you couldn't borrow a conductor from another circuit, whether this be L, N or a CPC.

You cannot borrow a live conductor from another circuit, but the cpc isn't a live conductor.

The use of a single CPC for multiple circuits is permitted, steel trunking/conduit installations would be impossible if this wasn't the case.
 
There are no existing downlights there, and if there were I would replace standard (metal) downlights requiring a CPC with intergrated downlights not requiring a CPC (as I've previously done), just as I would replace a metal ceiling light for a class 2 fitting without a second thought if no cpc was present.

I also thought you couldn't borrow a conductor from another circuit, whether this be L, N or a CPC.
If there are no Down lights in place (so I’m guessing just one or 2 ceiling pendants) then I wouldn’t be putting a whole ceiling full of downlights up even if they were class 2. The cable linking them all would be fixed wiring and would require an earth. I really cant see any argument against this. The only reason you would do that is if you didn’t have knowledge of BS7671 and that what you were doing was potentially unsafe (by today’s standards) or if earning money was your only real concern.
 
The only reason you would do that is if you didn’t have knowledge of BS7671 and that what you were doing was potentially unsafe (by today’s standards) or if earning money was your only real concern.
I think all of us here would agree that it would be against the regs, but unsafe? No. It may become potentially unsafe in the future should the incompetent get involved by installing class 1s (in spite of the warning on the consumer unit), but the incompetent could make pretty much anything unsafe. Our concern here is liability, if someone was to do the above, a fault occurred, and someone was injured, would you be to blame or the person that fitted the class 1? Or both?

There aren't many situations I can think of where I would consider it. Little old lady wants some downlights in her kitchen but doesn't want her house carved up, perhaps. But then, could get around the issue by using SELV. Loft light, possibly.
 
Is there no way to rewire the circuit or even part of the circuit ?

2 core lighting dates back the 1960s so the place is probably due a rewire soon anyways..
 
If there are no Down lights in place (so I’m guessing just one or 2 ceiling pendants) then I wouldn’t be putting a whole ceiling full of downlights up even if they were class 2. The cable linking them all would be fixed wiring and would require an earth. I really cant see any argument against this. The only reason you would do that is if you didn’t have knowledge of BS7671 and that what you were doing was potentially unsafe (by today’s standards) or if earning money was your only real concern.
The cable does not require an earth Rather the circuit does if relying on ADS as the means of fault protection
 
Electrical safety first produce good guide covering this.
As long as the lights are class 2 i dont see the issue? As suggested run a seperate cpc from a close circuit.
 
Thanks again all for the replies. Providing the IR is still good on the conductors I don't consider it to be 'unsafe' to install class 2 downlights. I have often replaced rusty old metal class 1 downlights in a bathroom that weren't suitable for the area, and where no cpc was present, with intergrated downlights suitable for a bathroom (not requiring a cpc), and I will continue to do this should the situation arise as I have clearly improved the safety of the installation, but it appears some sparks would refuse to do this which frankly surprises me.

I find it slightly bizarre that it's acceptable for a circuit to borrow a cpc from a completely seperate circuit.

As already mentioned, I shall offer the particular customer I referred to, the quinetic solution.
 
Thanks again all for the replies. Providing the IR is still good on the conductors I don't consider it to be 'unsafe' to install class 2 downlights. I have often replaced rusty old metal class 1 downlights in a bathroom that weren't suitable for the area, and where no cpc was present, with intergrated downlights suitable for a bathroom (not requiring a cpc), and I will continue to do this should the situation arise as I have clearly improved the safety of the installation, but it appears some sparks would refuse to do this which frankly surprises me.

I find it slightly bizarre that it's acceptable for a circuit to borrow a cpc from a completely seperate circuit.

As already mentioned, I shall offer the particular customer I referred to, the quinetic solution.

Replacing damaged or otherwise unsuitable equipment on the circuit is different to altering and extending the circuit.

The new work you install must comply with bs7671, this is effectively made a legal requirement by part P.
Altering the circuit to install downlights without providing a suitable cpc does not comply.
It doesn't matter how much you feel it is no unsafe, makes it safer, or is making the best of a bad job, it simply does not comply. And it is not a justifiable departure from bs7671 because changing a single light for downlights is not an urgent or necessary repair.

Why do you find 'borrowing a cpc' bizarre? This has, as far as I know, been a part of the regulations for decades.
 
Replacing damaged or otherwise unsuitable equipment on the circuit is different to altering and extending the circuit.

The new work you install must comply with bs7671, this is effectively made a legal requirement by part P.
Altering the circuit to install downlights without providing a suitable cpc does not comply.
It doesn't matter how much you feel it is no unsafe, makes it safer, or is making the best of a bad job, it simply does not comply. And it is not a justifiable departure from bs7671 because changing a single light for downlights is not an urgent or necessary repair.

Why do you find 'borrowing a cpc' bizarre? This has, as far as I know, been a part of the regulations for decades.
I think some people consider borrowing a cpc from another circuit to be bad practice (I don't, whatever gets the job done) - if decommissioning the 'lender' circuit, you could also inadvertently lose the cpc to the 'borrower', if you weren't careful.

I was unaware there was a need to justify a reason for a departure from the regs, I can't find anything in the BBB or OSG on the matter. Is it in one of the guidance notes?
 
A cpc which serves more than one circuit is not a departure. This may hark back to the days when containment served multiple circuits as a cpc but nevertheless this is not stipulated.
 
I think some people consider borrowing a cpc from another circuit to be bad practice (I don't, whatever gets the job done) - if decommissioning the 'lender' circuit, you could also inadvertently lose the cpc to the 'borrower', if you weren't careful.

I was unaware there was a need to justify a reason for a departure from the regs, I can't find anything in the BBB or OSG on the matter. Is it in one of the guidance notes?

I too consider cpc connections from other circuits which are not obvious or easily identifiable to be a bad idea, but that doesn't stop it being permitted.

There is an implied need for justification for a departure from the regs when they require any departure to leave the installation no less safe than if the regulations were complied with. If there was no need to justify a departure then what is the point in having regulations at all?
Although ultimately the only 'need' to justify a departure is if and when something has gone wrong as a result of that departure.
 
There is an implied need for justification for a departure from the regs when they require any departure to leave the installation no less safe than if the regulations were complied with. If there was no need to justify a departure then what is the point in having regulations at all?
The regs say if departing, safety must not be less, but doesn't say that it has to be in answer to essential repair work, or indeed any sort of reason at all, that I can find. It does mention new materials or inventions might be a reason to depart.
 

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