The must be something else has happen which we are not being told about otherwise the company will be taken to the cleaners should it get to a tribunal.
The must be something else has happen which we are not being told about otherwise the company will be taken to the cleaners should it get to a tribunal.
S
Silly Sausage
Taking your story at face value, I would take it to Tribunal for unfair dismissal.
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismissal
https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/unfair-and-constructive-dismissal
O
Octopus
I dunno about locking off but "I'm off" - time to get my coat
U
urmy132
What ive heard is very petty from your employers take them to court
just seen the ideal lockoff kit in eddied, £90 for the pro or 50 for the other version.
what brand kits do you guys use?
what brand kits do you guys use?
N
newtothis
Mate, sorry you’ve lost your job, it must have been a real hammer blow after 4 years
Good you have found work, It takes the sting out of the thing.
Given that much of the training by employers is a box ticking / arse covering exercise. I find it a bit weird, they’d let you skip training sessions.
I’m working as an electrician’s mate and I know what it says in the EWR regarding working live.
How would you go about proving it would be unreasonable to lock off and test to make sure it’s dead.
What makes your case more serious is that you weren’t taking any risk yourself, you were telling someone else to do it.
Was your dismissal unfair ?
Get legal advice from a solicitor specialising in employment law. You could get this from the CAB
The CAB has changed a little bit, solicitors will give you free advice, the pay-back for them is; leads for fee paid work. It’s a little bit like ambulance chasing.
To get credible advice provide the following.
Suspension notice, and Invitation to the investigation meeting.
Notes/recordings, and Outcome letter from the above meeting.
Invitation to disciplinary meeting.
Notes/recordings from the disciplinary meeting.
Written Outcome of the disciplinary meeting.
Appeal meeting invitation, Notes/recordings and appeal outcome letter.
Any evidence your ex employer produced against you with , eg not hearsay - hard evidence.
A word of caution, outcomes of employment tribunals will come into the wider public domain.
You must decide if that would help you, with the 4 year hole in your CV and moving on.
Good you have found work, It takes the sting out of the thing.
Given that much of the training by employers is a box ticking / arse covering exercise. I find it a bit weird, they’d let you skip training sessions.
I’m working as an electrician’s mate and I know what it says in the EWR regarding working live.
How would you go about proving it would be unreasonable to lock off and test to make sure it’s dead.
What makes your case more serious is that you weren’t taking any risk yourself, you were telling someone else to do it.
Was your dismissal unfair ?
Get legal advice from a solicitor specialising in employment law. You could get this from the CAB
The CAB has changed a little bit, solicitors will give you free advice, the pay-back for them is; leads for fee paid work. It’s a little bit like ambulance chasing.
To get credible advice provide the following.
Suspension notice, and Invitation to the investigation meeting.
Notes/recordings, and Outcome letter from the above meeting.
Invitation to disciplinary meeting.
Notes/recordings from the disciplinary meeting.
Written Outcome of the disciplinary meeting.
Appeal meeting invitation, Notes/recordings and appeal outcome letter.
Any evidence your ex employer produced against you with , eg not hearsay - hard evidence.
A word of caution, outcomes of employment tribunals will come into the wider public domain.
You must decide if that would help you, with the 4 year hole in your CV and moving on.
quote
What makes your case more serious is that you weren’t taking any risk yourself, you were telling someone else to do it.
I am absolutely bewildered that people working with electricity equate the action described with risk
Yes there may be a procedure for a --- covering exercise or a box ticking jaunt to satisfy a H+S administrator,but risk?
What makes your case more serious is that you weren’t taking any risk yourself, you were telling someone else to do it.
I am absolutely bewildered that people working with electricity equate the action described with risk
Yes there may be a procedure for a --- covering exercise or a box ticking jaunt to satisfy a H+S administrator,but risk?
T
trev
Please explain exactly where the risk was.
The accessory had one bolt in it which, from what I can make out was holding it back reasonably securely. As a temporary measure the OP decided to put another one in to hold it back properly. Anyone would have had to try really, really hard to get hold of any live parts.
Seems to me like they wanted rid of him and used this as the excuse.
he was asked to put the bolt into an already earthed fascia plate so as soon as it touched the plate before it got anywhere near live cables it was earthed so perfectly safe.
electricity is like a plumber it takes the easiest route possible and **** everyone else
K
Knobhead
So due to avoiding safety talks he didn’t know the rules he subsequently broke.
Don’t give me the guff about not knowing about or being too busy to attend the safety talks. A reasonable company won’t let you miss the talks.
You mentioned joining a union, if you’re in the wrong, they won’t help. Not that they would if you joined after the event.
I spent a good few years as a steward and later a convenor and I’ve heard nearly every story going. I would interview the person and take legal advice from the union days before the enquiry. If needs be get the unions full time officials involved.
If the company was in the wrong, I’d fight tooth and nail.
But more than once I’ve gone in to an enquiry as “condemned mans friend”, purely to ensure things were done legally.
Don’t give me the guff about not knowing about or being too busy to attend the safety talks. A reasonable company won’t let you miss the talks.
You mentioned joining a union, if you’re in the wrong, they won’t help. Not that they would if you joined after the event.
I spent a good few years as a steward and later a convenor and I’ve heard nearly every story going. I would interview the person and take legal advice from the union days before the enquiry. If needs be get the unions full time officials involved.
If the company was in the wrong, I’d fight tooth and nail.
But more than once I’ve gone in to an enquiry as “condemned mans friend”, purely to ensure things were done legally.
P
Plonker 3
The burning question though still needs answering.
Did you, read, understand and follow the RAMS?
Did you, read, understand and follow the RAMS?
B
Breeze
sorry to join so late, I agree it is overkill as you would remove the consumer unit in order to take Ze reading. But were I work you only take Zs readings on a circuit with a socket outlet, it is an agreed limitation that any circuit will be calculated Ze plus R1+R2.
i would possibly raise the issue of why you weren't at the toolbox talks,
B
Breeze
Sorry the lid of the consumer unit
N
newtothis
I’m sorry for writing that. It’s basically what they’re saying to justify your dismissal.
Something doesn’t add up about your case.
You say you brought up the issue of lack of training during your appeal. Any grievance raised or that comes to light during the course of a disciplinary has to be investigated, if the company wants to adhere to best practice set out by ACAS.
Why did this not happen ?
Were you only accused of one thing are a few items ?
The peculiar thing is. if they could prove you skived the training, they be admitting the let someone without proper training - supervise an unqualified person.
Immediately they assigned this mate to you, you should have texted your line manager pointing out you’ve no experience supervising unqualified mates.
By dismissing you for the reason you’ve stated, they’ve opened the door for the “37 year old Electricians mate” to throw in a grievance - or just report the whole thing to the H&S executive.
If you’re concerned about the info they hold about you put in a subject access request - it will cost you a tenner and they will have 40days to comply
Go to the ICO website for pro forma letter and info.
Trev and Des 56
I don’t know what the risk is to be totally honest with you.
All I know is if I go the through safe isolation procedure it reduces risk.
In the work situation it’s as much to do with what the employers insurer will pay out on - pure common sense is not the sole factor.
I’ve read the EWR (just the PDF guide) and they say no live working unless unreasonable to isolate.
The company I’m temping for hammered that point home in no uncertain terms during the induction.
Live testing is only supposed to be carried out by a competent person or unqualified under the supervision of a competent person - have I got that one wrong too ?
Confused of Sussex
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N
newtothis
I'm not even sure why you lads a talking about testing - it's about an unqualified mate instructed to work on an energised circuit with no safe isolation.
T
trev
Let's get this in perspective. The guy was putting a retaining bolt in an accessory that already had one in.
L
Leesparkykent
Deleted.
L
Leesparkykent
And the back box was plastic with white socket lol
My HR manager other half says that assuming the company has followed their disciplinary policy procedure to the letter, and wesaston has a face to face meeting (e.g. accompanied by another) and the company are not going to uphold his appeal, and in their opinion it still constitutes gross misconduct, there is no other option to but sack wesaston. They do have the descreation in the appeal to overturn that sanction, the appeal should be heard by someone else other than who carried out the initial investigation. You could go to an ET, but that should be carried out within 3 months of the appeal. What did your solicitor say? Have you informed your new employer of your gross misconduct, there is no requirement, but they would of taken a reference. Best to inform them up front, 'cos they might decided to finish your employment should they find out retrospectively, again seek advise from your solicitor, or seek advice from CAB or ACAS.
N
newtothis
I’m keeping in perspective The OP is saying he has actually been dismissed for gross misconduct for instructing and unqualified person to work of a live circuit. The appeal as been and gone.
Because I’m not saying, “that was harsh mate, take them to court“, doesn’t mean I don’t think that the OP may have been fitted up, far from it.
K
Knobhead
In a dismissal case a company will make sure its case is watertight. They can’t afford not to.
Fortunately it wasn’t me, one of the other shift managers. Summarily dismissed one of the operatives on the spot, the case went to tribunal and we lost. I don’t know what it cost the company but all management had to endure courses on employment law, it wasn’t going to happen again.
They put him on my shift when he came back. He hadn’t changed in fact he became really cocky thinking he was fireproof.
It was watertight when he did go. I suspended him there and then, pending an enquiry. This was about midnight, straight on the phone to head of HR who came in. By 02:00 gross misconduct proved he was on his way. He had the right to appeal so he consulted a solicitor who told him to drop it otherwise it will cost him a lot of money for no return.
So I’ve seen it from both sides, as a shop steward and a line manager. When it comes to disciplinary maters I’d rather not be either. I heard most stories and this one to misquote Shakespeare’s Queen Gertrude, Hamlet's mother. “The gentleman doth protest to much, methinks”.
Fortunately it wasn’t me, one of the other shift managers. Summarily dismissed one of the operatives on the spot, the case went to tribunal and we lost. I don’t know what it cost the company but all management had to endure courses on employment law, it wasn’t going to happen again.
They put him on my shift when he came back. He hadn’t changed in fact he became really cocky thinking he was fireproof.
It was watertight when he did go. I suspended him there and then, pending an enquiry. This was about midnight, straight on the phone to head of HR who came in. By 02:00 gross misconduct proved he was on his way. He had the right to appeal so he consulted a solicitor who told him to drop it otherwise it will cost him a lot of money for no return.
So I’ve seen it from both sides, as a shop steward and a line manager. When it comes to disciplinary maters I’d rather not be either. I heard most stories and this one to misquote Shakespeare’s Queen Gertrude, Hamlet's mother. “The gentleman doth protest to much, methinks”.
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N
newtothis
12.00 am Suspended - but not asked to leave building.
Investigation meeting arranged by Head of HR, who's now racing to the scene in his pyjamas.
Disciplinary meeting arranged with insufficient time for the employee to get legal advice and arrange to be accompanied at approx 1.00am in the morning
2.00am
Bad employee is dismissed, and leaves - taking on board his ex-employer’s advice that appeal would be futile and cost money.
That seems a bit quick, then again I don’t have all the facts.
What decade was this, and was it in the UK ?
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Most of been really serious for HR manager to come out at 2 in the morning, do you think 'due process' took place at that time of day? Anyhow suppose we are going off track, we'll see if wesaston comes back.
K
Knobhead
Suspended and escorted to the canteen by security.
Evidence:
A breathalyzer test. He declined an independent blood test.
Part of the companies employment T&C’s was drug and alcohol testing.
The legal advice was from the solicitor that advised him in the first case.
BTW, I wish the head of HR had arrived in her nightie.
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G
GeordieSparky
New here but, the last company I worked for, if the person isn't a competent person in their field, I.E your unqualified mate, they were not allowed to screw any accessories back whilst the circuit was live, that was part of the companies policies, I'm guessing yours had similar, therefore instructing him do so broke company policy.
But to be fair, its ridiculous, before long you'll not be able to leave your house on a morning because its against H&S
But to be fair, its ridiculous, before long you'll not be able to leave your house on a morning because its against H&S
N
newtothis
depends, ive worked in a bar and your encouraged to drink while you workLOL rolling up to work ****ed - never a good career move
Just bumping some threads in the Electrical Wiring Theories and Regulations forum category here on our Electricians Forums. If this specific topic isn't current, just ignore it, it'll drop off the list in no time. However, if it's something you'd like to contribute to, feel free to reply and bring it back into current discussion.
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