Discuss No CPC in lighting circuits / Fire damage in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Aha, gotcha there. I’ve freely always stated, never did EICR’s as having returned to the industry in the last few years, I didn’t have the necessary experience IMO, as it’s so subjective.

But I do have experience in reading and absorbing regulations & laws etc.

Anyway, why should I answer your question before you answer mine. I sense a trap.
Because I asked first, twice actually. You're dead right it's a trap, why do you think no one else has answered?
 
Problem with an EICR you are basing an opinion on what you can see, which is fine in some circumstances. In this scenario you say all fittings are Class II or all insulated which is again fine if you are 100% sure you have accessed all parts of the circuit.
 
That's true Westward, but there are a number of different faults that could go undetected if you weren't thorough, regardless of whether a CPC is present or not. The guidance recommends carrying out an EICR in preparation for a board change
Recommends, being the operative word.
 
Faced with conflicting information and guidance you have a choice between taking the job or insisting on rewiring with the possibility of losing it and future work.
Ultimately the decision is yours.
Like everything in life it comes down to risk Vs reward.
 
PS @Pretty Mouth have you ever installed a new CU in such circumstances?
You answer mine, I'll answer yours :)

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated/class2 fittings what would you code it?

C1 immediate danger?
C2 Potential danger?
C3 Improvement recommended?

Based on that, would you give a unsatisfactory or satisfactory outcome?
So, as I’m unqualified to answer, I’ve answered yours, so can you answer mine? :)
 
So, as I’m unqualified to answer, I’ve answered yours, so can you answer mine? :)
It would be a pleasure :)

Before I answer, I might point out that it may be perceived by some that you asking this is a low, dirty tactic, designed to both pull rank, and expose inexperience in your opponent. Typically deployed by someone who is already on the ropes in an argument, it's a last ditch attempt to save face before they flounce off in a huff. The danger with using this tactic, is once the opponent's inexperience is exposed, it highlights the attacker's own short comings should he/she fail to win the argument.

As you are an esteemed member of the forum I will assume that this is not the case, and that you are merely curious.

I have never changed a board to an installation with missing CPCs on lighting circuits, in fact I have only done one board change, and that was more than a year ago. I don't do EICRs either, unless you count the one I did before the board change. I have just 3 short weeks training, about 2.5 years ago, and consider myself mainly self taught. I am not on a competent person scheme, and use a 3rd party certifier for any notifiables. The bulk of my electrical work is minor stuff, extra lighting, sockets and so on, the odd bathroom or kitchen, plus some fault finding. I still do general handyman work as well, boarding lofts, repointing and so on, as I don't yet have enough regular electrical work to live off.

So a relative newcomer to the industry I'm sure we would all agree. I hope that answers your question, plus a bit more, just in case you were curious.

Now, what about my questions. No need to be qualified to do EICRs Midwest, just competent, so I hear. I'll give you a clue. You can find the answer to the coding question on P15 of the Best Practice Guide 4:

 
Of course I'm just curious, anything else would be just trolling and against forum rules.

I've done quite a few CU replacements, but none with lighting circuits without a cpc. I did start to do a bathroom refurbishment once, where I discovered that the cpc for the bathroom light was actually a green single, clamped to a water pipe in the loft. So it went from down lighting, vanity mirrors etc, to just replacing the bathroom light with Class 2 fitting. I advised the customer to consider having a re-wire, something I wouldn't take on. The property was rewired some time later. I have come across other installs, but declined the work, as the customer was ill-inclined to have remedial work carried out to rectify. So I left that to others.

I was just wondering, about replacing a CU where the existing wiring is over 60 years old. Not something I would of considered doing, but thats my opinion.

As regards doing EICR's, when I retrained I did the initial testing & inspection course, as my skills were somewhat ancient. My Scheme suggested I could do EICR's with that course, but I wasn't sure how any insurance claim would go, if it were to happen, without a 2395 or equivalent. Then there's the additional indemnity insurance. It just didn't make business sense for me.

PS I guessed right. Guess I'm good at quizzes :)
 
Good at quizzes huh? Well I've got one you'll like:

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated... ah forget it. You're obviously not going to answer, none of you, because you know if you do it'll be impossible for you to argue your case any longer.

I had a table of theoretical life expectancies for PVC cables operating at various temperatures for various durations per day. You would be surprised at how long they're expected to last. IIRC running at 70 deg for 8hrs a day it was 69 years. I wish I still had that table, but I'm damned if I can find it.

I've not come across anything that I'd estimate at being over 60 yrs that was still in good nick, but certainly some mid 1960s cables, without the CPC on the lighting circuit that have been in very good condition.
 
I had a table of theoretical life expectancies for PVC cables operating at various temperatures for various durations per day. You would be surprised at how long they're expected to last. IIRC running at 70 deg for 8hrs a day it was 69 years. I wish I still had that table, but I'm damned if I can find it.

I've not come across anything that I'd estimate at being over 60 yrs that was still in good nick, but certainly some mid 1960s cables, without the CPC on the lighting circuit that have been in very good condition.
It all depends on who you speak to;





Everything has a life span. I've said many times on this forum, that if I was refurbishing an old house, I would have it rewired come what may regardless of the test results, same as I would have the CH pipes etc replaced. But thats just my personal opinion, as I said before.
 
Good at quizzes huh? Well I've got one you'll like:

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated... ah forget it. You're obviously not going to answer, none of you, because you know if you do it'll be impossible for you to argue your case any longer.

I had a table of theoretical life expectancies for PVC cables operating at various temperatures for various durations per day. You would be surprised at how long they're expected to last. IIRC running at 70 deg for 8hrs a day it was 69 years. I wish I still had that table, but I'm damned if I can find it.

I've not come across anything that I'd estimate at being over 60 yrs that was still in good nick, but certainly some mid 1960s cables, without the CPC on the lighting circuit that have been in very good condition.
Personally I’d C3 it for absence of a cpc in an all insulated lighting circuit, warning label attached to the CU
 
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24 hours a day running at 70deg will last 25 years according to your Prysmian link, in excess of 40 years at 8hrs a day. I wonder how often correctly installed T+E reaches 70deg in a domestic environment, even for a moment?

I worked on some on Friday. A bungalow, about 1968, imperial twin and earth. Cut into it in the loft to spur to a socket in the porch. IR tested fine, as good as new.
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Personally I’d C3 it for absence of a cpc in an all insulated lighting circuit, warning label attached to the CU
That's what the guidance says too, C3. The absence of any C1s or C2s (or FIs) for any other reason, would lead to a satisfactory outcome on the report. It would then be difficult for someone to argue that the circuits needed rewiring based on that outcome.
 
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I worked on some on Friday. A bungalow, about 1968, imperial twin and earth. Cut into it in the loft to spur to a socket in the porch. IR tested fine, as good as new.
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That's what the guidance says too, C3. The absence of any C1s or C2s (or FIs) for any other reason, would lead to a satisfactory outcome on the report. It would then be difficult for someone to argue that the circuits needed rewiring based on that outcome.

Granted, I’ve worked on some properties from the 60’s where the installation is in the same excellent condition since it was installed.

But I’ve also worked in some properties half that age, which have been hacked to bits by DIY’s, and because of its nature, most the mess lies hidden under the floor. No amount of testing will reveal that.

Thats why, if was to move into an older property, along with the kitchen & bathroom refurbishment, it would get a rewire. No point in fancy refurbishment, without looking after the infrastructure.

But that’s my personal opinion.
 
Granted, I’ve worked on some properties from the 60’s where the installation is in the same excellent condition since it was installed.

But I’ve also worked in some properties half that age, which have been hacked to bits by DIY’s, and because of its nature, most the mess lies hidden under the floor. No amount of testing will reveal that.

Thats why, if was to move into an older property, along with the kitchen & bathroom refurbishment, it would get a rewire. No point in fancy refurbishment, without looking after the infrastructure.

But that’s my personal opinion.
I can't argue with that, you do see some bad work. Like you say, DIY, or kitchen fitters often too.
 
I can't argue with that, you do see some bad work. Like you say, DIY, or kitchen fitters often too.
I’ve just read all of these messages all very smart in the way you interprete the regs. It all comes down to the simple fact the property needs to be rewired or the lights at least but may aswell do the sockets aswell. Why look for reasons to not Rewire the property, I’ve been in the industry only 14 years and been fortunate to learn from a lot of excellent sparkys over the years always had same advice don’t over complicate it. In this instance to avoid all these messages it would be to REWIRE IT simples
 
I take your point Westward, but I don't think the IET would allow the ESC produce a document which is essentially a guide, to print information that doesn't comply with BS 7671 or any other BS come to that.

I doubt the IET have any control over what the ESC print, we in this country have the freedom to put whatever we like into print.

Someone could publish guidance advising people that in the absence of a cpc they should connect all exposed metalwork to neutral and the IET couldn't do a thing to stop them.
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BS7671 18th ed is the current standard for safety. Ok, let's go circular. When changing a CU, does everything in the installation have to be to current regulations? No.

When doing an EICR, if you found a lighting circuit without CPC, with all insulated/class2 fittings what would you code it?
C1 immediate danger?
C2 Potential danger?
C3 Improvement recommended?
Based on that, would you give a unsatisfactory or satisfactory outcome?

You are trying to mix two different concepts here, how an item is coded on an EICR and what I would do when required to carry out an alteration to an existing installation.

On an EICR, and if everything on the circuit is designated by the manufacturer as being class 2 (I don't think I've ever seen a switch which is marked as being class 2) and is in good condition without any deterioration then I would code it C3, I may still give an overall unsatisfactory assessment (yes this is allowed, C1 and C2 are automatic unsatisfactory results, but nothing prevents you giving an unsatisfactory result without a C1 or C2 item being present)
And I would certainly give a strong recommendation to rectify this in my covering letter.

However if I was asked to carry out an alteration to the circuit, including changing the CU which feeds it, I would advise that the circuit be rewired, and if this is not agreed by the customer I would decline to do the job.
 
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I have to agree that there are different concepts going on here, and academic as they may be, they are valid concepts for consideration. I have read every post, and find myself somewhat torn...
My mentor in life taught me a valuable lesson...well, 3 of them:
1. If it is complicated and might get you into bother, decline, walk away, sleep well
2. If you can help, do it

Still no idea what i would do in the current scenario though!
probably recommend the improvements, and walk away if not instructed to do so.
Line of least resistance and line of least liability.

My mentor also taught me the third valuable lesson:
3. Don't get caught up in a client's crusade...it will end badly, you won't get paid and you will look bad.

Here endeth tonight's lesson! LOL!
 
A great debate guys, what this forum is all about!!
If, on inspection, there are any class 1 pieces of equipment on the lighting circuit, you are not permitted to connect that circuit to the consumer unit if there are no cpcs present and the EICR would merit a C2.
If all equipment is class 2 then there are a number of tests that would need to be carried out to establish that there are no connections to earth and that the insulation resistance tests meet the regs (>1meg ohm).
putting up warning notices would also be required.
I would also document a risk assessment for the client to sign. Having said all that, I would be uneasy with leaving the circuit with no cpc - might you just tell the insurance company that the cable has also suffered from fire damage upon further inspection? Or that the insulation resistance test is coming in well under 1 meg so will need to be replaced?? Just sayin.....
 

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