Part P

[Guest77]

It is a Building regulation, thats right a Building regulation, not a Electrical qualification. If you read it (you can download it on-line) then you will see that some works, and only some as it is getting less now needs to be notified to the local building control. Now there is nothing to suggest an Electrician need notify the local building control authority, nothing at all anywhere, this is a myth, and a myth we are all getting fed up with. The customer is duty bound to do this just like if they decided to have a loft conversion or indeed a extension on their home. To be competitive some electricians join a scheme so they can notify for the customer on their behalf and the fees are usually a couple of quid instead of the 2-300 the local authority would charge the customer if an Electrician didn't do it for them, this way the customer gets to save some money and the Electrician wins work. The schemes have a policy which they suggest if they get people to join them they will guarentee to the local authority the people they approve are competant, for this privilage they take 400-500 off these people, usually Electricians, but some Plumbers and Kitchen Fitters join as well, The local authority building control then accepts the fact the people on these schemes are competant and do not go out to site to inspect the works, this is why the cost is just an administrative one at a few quid and not hundreds. If you are a competant Electrician for example with a Gold card and plenty of experience why do you need to pay a scheme hundreds of pounds a year to have them tell the Local authority you are competant? If you are Competant then get stuck in and start work. If the work you do does need to be notified then you can ask the customer to do it or include an extra couple of hundred on top of your quote for you to do it. There is no judge in the whole of the UK who will find you guilty of anything wrong doing if you carry out work to BS7671 correctly without being a member of a scheme, we don't need them do we? so why are we paying them 500 a year? I can confirm I no longer pay them, I have left the NICEIC, I am competant, I have over 30 years experience, I will not give them 500 quid to tell someone else I am competant.


Please do not keep going on about being part p qualified, it is all Rollocks, rant over.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

You're wasting your time Glenn, too many sheep around.

looks that way...i`m afraid..

 

[Guest111]

It's all a load of cobblers,we all saw that garbage done by a so called "professional registered electrician" posted on here the other week! Now I was with Glenn when he tackled the NI guy about it at Elex and he just got nowhere.Now Glenn does go at things like a bull at a gate,I know he won't mind me saying that so I tried being as I can be very diplomatic when I want and all I got was a load of rubbish about how they'd only act if the customer complains and refusing to answer questions due to the data protection act!Which incidentally doesn't apply to what I was asking.It's a load of rubbish, nothing has been thought through properly and the whole thing is just a way of separating electricians from their hard earned cash.Incidentally from August the 1st 2014 it will be an offence for any electrician to carry out any work without being registered with me under the new INMC ruling all members must be deemed competent and have appropriate test gear (neon screwdriver and voltstick) send your cheques now guys and beat the rush.
What do you think guys,could I be onto a nice little earner here?lol



INMC=i need more cash

 

[stevethesparks]

Incidentally from August the 1st 2014 it will be an offence for any electrician to carry out any work without being registered with me under the new INMC ruling all members must be deemed competent and have appropriate test gear (neon screwdriver and voltstick) send your cheques now guys and beat the rush.

Can you advise of the address to send my cheque to, and will I get a nice sticker to put on my vehicle?

 

[UNG]

Can you advise of the address to send my cheque to, and will I get a nice sticker to put on my vehicle?

You might get a nice sucker to attach to your vehicle

 

[telectrix]

who wants to join my new scam? Northern Independent Competent Electrical Installation Contractors. (NICEIC for short). Please make cheques payable to Campaign Against Segregated Horsesh!t ( CASH for short)

 

[Geordie Spark]

Gavin you just talked a hell of a lot of sense. A lot of that is exactly what I want to see but (and it's a huge but) the scams will not allow that to happen because it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg/ the gift that just keeps giving.
That's why I and many others want to see them out of the equation because all they're interested in is their salary and pension schemes. They don't give a flying fig about what they are supposed to do and claim to be doing. Driving up standards.
I'll respond point by point in the morning because just now I've had a few and I'm watching Biffy Clyro from T in the Park (fantastic btw) and I'd probably struggle to be coherent

A Geordie struggling to be coherent???

That'll be a first!!

 

[telectrix]

there is a difference between coherent and gobby.

 

[Geordie Spark]

there is a difference between coherent and gobby.

Of course there is Tel - a Geordie is coherent and a Scouser is just gobby.

 

[tidyboiler]

Of course there is Tel - a Geordie is coherent and a Scouser is just gobby.

Whereas a Staffie is just...................... :dita:

 

[telectrix]

staffie?

 

[Geordie Spark]

staffie?

View attachment 25548

NOT Staffie dog Tel ........... She means Staffie Pikey. Not very tall with short nose & broad ... hindquarters.

 

[tidyboiler]

NOT Staffie dog Tel ........... She means Staffie Pikey. Not very tall with short nose & broad ... hindquarters.

Erm.................. you know what I promised you Monday night....................... well.............. :dita:



edited to add "you can make your own dinner now"

 

[Geordie Spark]

Erm.................. you know what I promised you Monday night....................... well.............. :dita:



edited to add "you can make your own dinner now"

Awww ............ Buggeritt!!

 

[edrobbo8]

MDJ,

You are bang on. I was with ELECSA until last March (2013), when my renewal came up I wasn't doing a lot of domestic jobs, they kept calling me for payment and to organise an assessment date. I told them to look at my history of notifications, and there weren't many over the 2 previous years, and since I refused to renew my membership, I have done dozens of jobs where Building Control (Gloucester, Cheltenham and Cotswolds) have been involved with the building works, and not once has one of the many inspectors asked am I Part P registered! They have all said the same - as long as the work is done to 17th standards and cables are run in safe zones etc (which they can normally see as they appear at different stages of building work) then complete an EIC and they are happy. In fact, as long as there is an extractor fan in every bathroom and plenty of smoke alarms they seem to be happy!

The scams are just that - a scam. I haven't had a customer ask me if I am Part P registered since 2011, when that customer happened to work in local government.

Crack on and get the jobs done safely, quickly and to a good standard to keep up your good reputation!!!

 

[telectrix]

Hello, fellow sparkies. I’m a fully qualified electrician having done a 5 week course , got my Part P and everything. Got my NICEIC domestic installer inspection in 2 weeks. Going to rewire my parents house for the inspector to see. It’s a prefab, all concrete, built about 1950 and is wired in that awful round copper covered cable that fits into the boxes with brass nuts. It’s all 2 core cable, so there’s no earth. I’m going to do it all in stickyback plastic trunking, should only take me about a week. The niceic want a small job as well, so I plan to fit a circuit for washing machine and tumble dryer in the only place in my small flat where they will fit. The bathroom. As the floor is tiled, I can’t get to the socket cables, so I plan to come from the bathroom light in the attic, down the corner of the bathroom in trunking, under the bath, and fit a double socket under the bath where the taps are. I’ve looked up in the regulations, and that’s OK because you need a screwdriver to get the panel off. Also it makes the plumbing easy, straight from the tap pipes. And, because there’s no earth on the lighting, I can fix a wire from the earth of the socket to the cold water pipe. One thing I could not understand from the course is why I need to use thick cable on showers and cookers. Is it something to do with the bigger cable allowing the amps to flow faster, like bigger water pipes allow faster water flowing?

 

[Guest77]

Hello, fellow sparkies. I’m a fully qualified electrician having done a 5 week course , got my Part P and everything. Got my NICEIC domestic installer inspection in 2 weeks. Going to rewire my parents house for the inspector to see. It’s a prefab, all concrete, built about 1950 and is wired in that awful round copper covered cable that fits into the boxes with brass nuts. It’s all 2 core cable, so there’s no earth. I’m going to do it all in stickyback plastic trunking, should only take me about a week. The niceic want a small job as well, so I plan to fit a circuit for washing machine and tumble dryer in the only place in my small flat where they will fit. The bathroom. As the floor is tiled, I can’t get to the socket cables, so I plan to come from the bathroom light in the attic, down the corner of the bathroom in trunking, under the bath, and fit a double socket under the bath where the taps are. I’ve looked up in the regulations, and that’s OK because you need a screwdriver to get the panel off. Also it makes the plumbing easy, straight from the tap pipes. And, because there’s no earth on the lighting, I can fix a wire from the earth of the socket to the cold water pipe. One thing I could not understand from the course is why I need to use thick cable on showers and cookers. Is it something to do with the bigger cable allowing the amps to flow faster, like bigger water pipes allow faster water flowing?

Ah so you own a white card with "ELECTRIC" written on it as well then?

 

[Midwest]

Pheeewwww. Just read this thread from being to end, not word for word mind, I need a beer or GT. Interesting, see both sides. It's been a bit quiet on here for a few days, so I thought I would stir things up again. Quoting; employ an electrician who is registered with one of the Government-approved scheme providers; or tell (‘notify’) your local-authority building-control about the installation work before work begins.
From April 2014 you will also be able to employ a non-registered electrical installer who has appointed a registered third party certifier to carry out the required inspection and testing of the work both during and on completion.
Out of interest, those of us not enrolled in a scam, sorry scheme, what happens when you tell your customer to notify the LABC? My LABC wants £400 for the privilege, not that I have any evidence they have charged that (but me the customer ain't gonna pay it). So what about third party inspection; you get stuffed I pay £500 a year to be a GASP registered electrician. Or just say nothing, easy option till it goes wrong, you'll be gripping the bars alone answering questions to some Michael Mansfield QC cos you PL insurance is null & void (dam insurance companies always try wriggle out of their responsibilities). So we are stuffed then really, or you just do commercial instead? By the way, it was a G&T, but I am just a big southern softy.

 

[trev]

Nowt wrong with a G&T mate, I have them in my more civilised moments.
There is the option of doing it in such a way that it's not going to go wrong, ie the right and proper way. That way the only way you can conceivably be in a court is for none notification.

 

[amckay]

Hello, fellow sparkies. I’m a fully qualified electrician having done a 5 week course , got my Part P and everything. Got my NICEIC domestic installer inspection in 2 weeks. Going to rewire my parents house for the inspector to see. It’s a prefab, all concrete, built about 1950 and is wired in that awful round copper covered cable that fits into the boxes with brass nuts. It’s all 2 core cable, so there’s no earth. I’m going to do it all in stickyback plastic trunking, should only take me about a week. The niceic want a small job as well, so I plan to fit a circuit for washing machine and tumble dryer in the only place in my small flat where they will fit. The bathroom. As the floor is tiled, I can’t get to the socket cables, so I plan to come from the bathroom light in the attic, down the corner of the bathroom in trunking, under the bath, and fit a double socket under the bath where the taps are. I’ve looked up in the regulations, and that’s OK because you need a screwdriver to get the panel off. Also it makes the plumbing easy, straight from the tap pipes. And, because there’s no earth on the lighting, I can fix a wire from the earth of the socket to the cold water pipe. One thing I could not understand from the course is why I need to use thick cable on showers and cookers. Is it something to do with the bigger cable allowing the amps to flow faster, like bigger water pipes allow faster water flowing?

Spot on that is tel. Crack on!

 

[Midwest]

That way the only way you can conceivably be in a court is for none notification.

Please expand me great mate, ran out of gin now on the vino.

 

[trev]

Please expand me great mate, ran out of gin now on the vino.

If you've done something which is notifiable but have not notified, as long as everything is compliant how can you possibly be dragged in front of a court for anything as long as you have told the customer that it is their responsibility to notify and not passed yourself of as a CPS member

 

[Midwest]

Just noticed 'Government-approved scheme providers' or GASP for short, is defined as 'To draw in the breath sharply, as from shock!

 

[telectrix]

shoulkd really be govt' related approved scheme providers.. GRASP.

 

[Midwest]

Anyhow enough banter, what about a repost to my post, before I have to get on with the BBQ?

 

[trev]

Never mind that mate just get your pinny on and get cooking

 

[Midwest]

Already there........whats wrong with wearing a pinny, manly apron?

 

[telectrix]

hope that the metalwork of the bbq is bonded.

 

[trev]

Nothing wrong with it at all mate. I just thought you should get a reminder to put it on just in case. H&S you know, concerned for your well being.

 

[telectrix]

is this your apron?

 

[jaydebruyne]

I'm probably going to get strung up here but what the hell.

I'm in full support of what you said CPRFENOM, and the opinion of GavinA. Part P of the Buildings Regulations is a document which is upheld by law. It's not a guidance document like the British Standards BS7671. All BS documents do is give you guidelines to help you adhere to what the regulations expect from you when carrying out any works.

I'm a complete novice with electrics and have just completed week 1 of a stupidly short 3 week course to do Part P and 17th Edition.

Do I think it will make me competent? Not a f***ing chance.
Will I call myself an electrician. Not on your life!
But it will give me a step in the right direction, so when I find a lovely sparky in London who will let me shadow them I can start getting some actual experience.

I have also just completed a 6 week plumbing course and managed to land myself an apprenticeship with an experienced plumber. My main thing is to be a plumber BUT I would like to install electrical circuits for immersions and electric showers without having to call an extra tradesperson out.

At the end of the day, I do not want to make light of your hard earned careers by doing a 3 week course and thinking I'm on the same tier as a sparky who's been in the game for 30 years. I just want to do the little bits I want to do and that's that. But I have to abide by the law and that means getting Part P / 17th qualified and probably joining a competent persons scheme (once I've gained some experience) - although I would rather not based on how much they charge.

I DO agree, however, that these competent persons schemes are extortionately priced and seems to be a thriving business, probably earning the government a tidy sum by scaremongering newbies like myself into joining them or paying £300 a job for the building services to assess my work.

Anyway ...

We all start from somewhere, don't we!

 

[trev]

I'm in full support of what you said CPRFENOM, and the opinion of GavinA. Part P of the Buildings Regulations is a document which is upheld by law.

Therein lies the problem, it is not upheld by law. It is largely ignored by the people who are supposed to uphold it, if we were seeing prosecutions of incompetent people who are badged up by the r£gulatory bodies then maybe the rank and file electricians would get behind it because it would be driving the incompetent out of the trade. Instead we see threads started on here almost weekly with pictures that strike terror into the heart of most of us.
The schemes themselves don't appear to care because they'll do nothing (unless you're using their logo without having paid for the privilege) and when asked to explain themselves they hide behind the data protection act and the local authorities don't have the resources, knowledge or inclination to do anything.

 

[jaydebruyne]

Therein lies the problem, it is not upheld by law. It is largely ignored by the people who are supposed to uphold it, if we were seeing prosecutions of incompetent people who are badged up by the r£gulatory bodies then maybe the rank and file electricians would get behind it because it would be driving the incompetent out of the trade. Instead we see threads started on here almost weekly with pictures that strike terror into the heart of most of us.
The schemes themselves don't appear to care because they'll do nothing (unless you're using their logo without having paid for the privilege) and when asked to explain themselves they hide behind the data protection act and the local authorities don't have the resources, knowledge or inclination to do anything.

I completely see your point and agree with you.

Personally, I think it's great they have a competency scheme going but yes, it should be regulated properly like the Gas Safe Register is as they are both killers in their own right.

To the OP, maybe instead of lobbying to get the scheme shut down, you could lobby to make sure it's actually regulated properly and the have-a-go-sparkys who put peoples lives at risk are actually brought up on their shockingly bad work.

 

[trev]

I completely see your point and agree with you.

Personally, I think it's great they have a competency scheme going but yes, it should be regulated properly like the Gas Safe Register is as they are both killers in their own right.

To the OP, maybe instead of lobbying to get the scheme shut down, you could lobby to make sure it's actually regulated properly and the have-a-go-sparkys who put peoples lives at risk are actually brought up on their shockingly bad work.

Sorry Jay but the schemes and the government have had a chance to put their houses in order. What is now needed is a proper regulator with long pointy teeth and the ability to use them. The only way we are going to get that is by the existing shower being put out of business.
How do we do that? By boycotting them.
I've said it a thousand times on here but nothing ever got changed by people quietly accepting the status quo and moaning about it.

 

[jaydebruyne]

Sorry Jay but the schemes and the government have had a chance to put their houses in order. What is now needed is a proper regulator with long pointy teeth and the ability to use them. The only way we are going to get that is by the existing shower being put out of business.
How do we do that? By boycotting them.
I've said it a thousand times on here but nothing ever got changed by people quietly accepting the status quo and moaning about it.

But to boycott is to break the law. Is everyone really prepared not to work while you go through the process of taking this to the courts. Because if you continue to work, contravening the regulations, no court will even hear your plea as you can't abide by the regulations you are trying to get enforced.

Anyway, I fully appreciate where you're coming from and agree that it needs to be regulated by whichever body will actually DO something with it.

In the meantime, I'll start my search for a sparky to shadow to get some experience (I don't suppose you live in London do you and fancy a newbie one day a week? haha)

 

[trev]

Sorry mate I'm in the north east.
Boycotting the schemes is not breaking the law, not notifying a notifiable job is BUT suppose I go into your home and rewire it. Everything is compliant with the regs (remember they are a minimum standard)and well within the parameters.

Which court in the country is going to punish me for leaving your home in a better electrical condition than it was before I arrived?

No I'm not prepared to not work while someone challenges this in the courts because most of what I do is commercial and because of this stupidity the electricilty used in a commercial environment is less hazardous that the stuff I'm using to power my laptop at home now (sounds bloody ridiculous doesn't it) but as I say, we can either accept the situation as it is and put up with all the chancers that we have in increasing numbers infecting the trade and lowering standards or we can fight for what it should be.

 

[jaydebruyne]

Sorry mate I'm in the north east.
Boycotting the schemes is not breaking the law, not notifying a notifiable job is BUT suppose I go into your home and rewire it. Everything is compliant with the regs (remember they are a minimum standard)and well within the parameters.

Which court in the country is going to punish me for leaving your home in a better electrical condition than it was before I arrived?

No I'm not prepared to not work while someone challenges this in the courts because most of what I do is commercial and because of this stupidity the electricilty used in a commercial environment is less hazardous that the stuff I'm using to power my laptop at home now (sounds bloody ridiculous doesn't it) but as I say, we can either accept the situation as it is and put up with all the chancers that we have in increasing numbers infecting the trade and lowering standards or we can fight for what it should be.

I hear you.

I'm just gonna do my best to be the best. If I feel out of my depth with a job, I simply won't do it.

 

[trev]

Jay, you're probably clever enough to know when you're out of your depth (sorry mate but after only 15 posts there's no way of knowing so please don't take that as a dig at you) but there's shedloads out there who have been badged up by that schemes who shouldn't be allowed to wire a plugtop. Take a look at UKSparks' recent post about an install on a listed building carried out by a scheme member, it's an absolute horror story. (I think it was called I won't name and shame (something like that anyway))
Some of the lads went to a trade expo armed with the photos and asked this clown's scheme what they were prepared to do about it. They said they'd only act on a complaint by the customer and hid behind data protection.
That's what has got most of us up in arms about the crap we are fed by these idiots.
Fight The Power!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

But to boycott is to break the law. Is everyone really prepared not to work while you go through the process of taking this to the courts. Because if you continue to work, contravening the regulations, no court will even hear your plea as you can't abide by the regulations you are trying to get enforced.

Anyway, I fully appreciate where you're coming from and agree that it needs to be regulated by whichever body will actually DO something with it.

In the meantime, I'll start my search for a sparky to shadow to get some experience (I don't suppose you live in London do you and fancy a newbie one day a week? haha)

and one of the `cling to part P` club sounds off again....

 

[jaydebruyne]

and one of the `cling to part P` club sounds off again....

haha I'm not really a cling to Part P, I was sold the Part P/17th Ed courses at the same time as I booked my plumbing course and I was reeled in with their BS by them saying it's all I need to be a domestic installer. I'd already paid for it before I found out how worthless it was. So unfortunately I have no choice but to do it with a smile, learn as much as I can and try and shadow someone to gain some experience.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

haha I'm not really a cling to Part P, I was sold the Part P/17th Ed courses at the same time as I booked my plumbing course and I was reeled in with their BS by them saying it's all I need to be a domestic installer. I'd already paid for it before I found out how worthless it was. So unfortunately I have no choice but to do it with a smile, learn as much as I can and try and shadow someone to gain some experience.

Do...or do not....there is no try.

Yoda.