Part P

[trev]

Gavin you just talked a hell of a lot of sense. A lot of that is exactly what I want to see but (and it's a huge but) the scams will not allow that to happen because it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg/ the gift that just keeps giving.
That's why I and many others want to see them out of the equation because all they're interested in is their salary and pension schemes. They don't give a flying fig about what they are supposed to do and claim to be doing. Driving up standards.
I'll respond point by point in the morning because just now I've had a few and I'm watching Biffy Clyro from T in the Park (fantastic btw) and I'd probably struggle to be coherent

 

[Guest77]

The point is we don't need them, if we need to notify building control for the bits left that need notifying and the customer wants us to notify we can do directly without any of the schemes being needed, we submit our certificate, send a copy to the building control and pay the fee to them if they require us to do so, we just do not need the schemes, the whole thing needs a rethink and fast

 

[telectrix]

problem is that we have to abide by the rules. in part p doc. it states that the BC should take into account the quals. and competence of the installing spark, base any fee on what test/inspection they need to do, if any. so why do they demand £300 when they accept that the spark is competent to install and certify the work?

 

[Silly Sausage]

It's the way it's worded, it allows them (Councils) to do WTF they like.

 

[telectrix]

so i won't bother them if they don't bother me. sweet.

 

[Gavin A]

Gavin, I think you're missing the point.
To reiterate Trev's and many others, it's not Part P as such, it's the Councils and Schemes using Part P, the invention of the 'DI', and the such EASY ability to get registered as 'Competent' then allowed on a register, that annoys.
You can't learn a trade in a few weeks.
The market is being flooded to saturation with novices.

yes, I get it (I figured that out myself the hard way, prior to employing a spark instead for that side of things 4 years ago after realising it wasn't as simple outside the classroom) but as trev asked, what are you going to do about it?


ps as a comparison, the MCS scheme for renewables that used to be a piece of **** to get into, introduced competency requirements in March that mean that a new entrant to any of the renewables schemes has to at last have an NVQ level 3 in the core competency involved, eg electrical or plumbing / heating, or 3 years relevant experience. Now personally I'm not entirely convinced by this approach, as it would allow a spark to become certified for solar PV after just doing a 3 days course in it, which for me is nothing like enough training in that technology, but at least it's better than the previous situation. It probably would have meant that I and many others would never have been able to start up our companies as we merely had degrees in the renewables side of things (and over a decade since I'd worked with my first solar system), and that apparently counts for nothing, but that's one side of the industry that is policed by the exact same competent persons schemes that has introduced this requirement recently, so it might not actually be that difficult to get them to introduce something more stringent on the electrical side as well.

They're also introducing random inspections of something like 1000 installations a year, which is about 1%, so not brilliant, but a lot better than none.

 

[Silly Sausage]

She has mate I can vouch for that

Are they covered in silky black fur as well?

 

[Gavin A]

Gavin you just talked a hell of a lot of sense. A lot of that is exactly what I want to see but (and it's a huge but) the scams will not allow that to happen because it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg/ the gift that just keeps giving.
That's why I and many others want to see them out of the equation because all they're interested in is their salary and pension schemes. They don't give a flying fig about what they are supposed to do and claim to be doing. Driving up standards.
I'll respond point by point in the morning because just now I've had a few and I'm watching Biffy Clyro from T in the Park (fantastic btw) and I'd probably struggle to be coherent

Fair enough, and thanks, I was hoping i wasn't wasting my time entirely with that post.

The schemes also owe their existence to part p legislation, without this giving them a virtual monopoly on this process they'd cease to exist pretty fast.

I get the impression that they're aware they took a beating at the recent commons inquiry, and that they realise they need to up their game to avoid the potential for a repeat performance not accepting their assurances, and deciding to maybe go down the JIB route instead, or set it up for electricians to register directly with building control etc.

That's what scares them IMO, not the potential for a few experienced sparks to just drop off their books and just give up on the whole notifications thing, as those sparks would be easy to dismiss and paint as being in the wrong for operating illegally.

 

[amckay]

GavinA I think you need to re-read that.
First sentance is all you need to know.

I really don't.

Well your clearly missing the point that is made and valid.

As for your second to last post I can agree with that but I think the method in their madness of doing a 3day course in PV was to give people a bit of knowledge (albeit not enough) to get into it. Once working you gain knowledge. I'm not saying its right and I'm not saying its wrong.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Tony and others are calling for sparks to break the law in order to make a point.



Except that Tony's trying to make out that they wouldn't actually be breaking the law when they clearly would.

yet more rubbish.

again:

ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PROPERTY OWNER/PERSON ORDERING THE WORK TO NOTIFY LABC...NOT THE ELECTRICIAN.

Honestly Gavin.....you really need to keep a lid on some of these ridiculous statements your making.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So what do we do to fight the malaise within the trade Gavin?
Just sit down and let the likes of Emma Clancy tickle our tummys?

It's the scams that have caused this mess that we're faced with now mate, and everyone who continues to pay them is complicit as far as I'm concerned.

They need electricians, electricians don't need them.

she can tickle my tummy.....as long as i can tickle her fancy...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and if she rubs my belly and makes a wish...it might come true...

 

[trev]

she can tickle my tummy.....as long as i can tickle her fancy...

I'd rather stick pins in my eyes mate. She's the enemy!
I wouldn't touch her with a borrowed one. Dirty!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

What's the line...give the installer a chance to rectify before going further?
Hahahaha...not much chance in that particular case!
Wonder what happened?

ask Paul Daniels...

 

[telectrix]

talking a bout emma clancy........ if you stop feeding the troll, it will wither and die.

 

[Gavin A]

yet more rubbish.

again:

ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PROPERTY OWNER/PERSON ORDERING THE WORK TO NOTIFY LABC...NOT THE ELECTRICIAN.

Honestly Gavin.....you really need to keep a lid on some of these ridiculous statements your making.

which bit of the legislation are you having trouble with?

you're the person who's carrying out the work, not the person who requests the work to be done, therefore it's your responsibility to ensure building control are notified,

It's about as clear as it can get in the legislation without specifically spelling it out for each trade individually, and there have been sparks successfully prosecuted for failing to notify building control, so I really don't understand why this seems so hard for you to grasp.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

talking a bout emma clancy........ if you stop feeding the troll, it will wither and die.

i thought she was being painted as a beautiful flower by her employers...

 

[Engineer54]

The electrical side of the LABC's is and always has been weak in their own right. The Engineers they employ are generally those that just couldn't make the mustard out in the real world. Same goes for the electricians they employ. Most of the apprentices that went through their training with the old LABC set-up's left as soon as they became qualified, as it was a dead end job with little to no chance of progression.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

which bit of the legislation are you having trouble with?

you're the person who's carrying out the work, not the person who requests the work to be done, therefore it's your responsibility to ensure building control are notified,

It's about as clear as it can get in the legislation without specifically spelling it out for each trade individually, and there have been sparks successfully prosecuted for failing to notify building control, so I really don't understand why this seems so hard for you to grasp.

read this:

[h=1]Building Regulations in England[/h][h=3]What is Part P of the building regulations?[/h]Since 2005, all electrical work in dwellings in England and Wales whether carried out professionally or as DIY, and whether or not the work is notifiable to a building control body (see below), must meet the requirements of Part P of the Building Regulations. In April 2013 the requirements for England were amended.
Compliance with Part P is intended to keep you and your family as safe as possible from electrical hazards.
The requirements of Part P apply to new dwellings and to any alterations or additions to the electrical installations of existing dwellings, including full or partial rewires.
Part P states that anyone carrying out electrical work in a dwelling must ensure that reasonable provision has been made in the design and installation of the electrical installations in order to protect any persons who might use, maintain or alter the electrical installation of that dwelling from fire and injury, including electric shock.
[h=3]Who is responsible for making sure that electrical work in your home meets the requirements of Part P?[/h]By law, the homeowner or landlord must be able to prove that all electrical installation work meets Part P, or they will be committing a criminal offence.
Local authorities have the power to make homeowners or landlords remove or alter any work that does not meet the requirements of the Building Regulations.
[h=3]What electrical work is notifiable?[/h]From April 2013 electrical work in a dwelling, or associated with its surroundings, is notifiable to a local building control body where the work includes:
• the installation of a new circuit, whether at low voltage (typically 230 V) or extra-low voltage); or
• the replacement of a consumer unit (fusebox); or
• any alteration or addition to an existing circuit in a special location*, whether at low voltage (typically 230 V) or extra-low voltage
*A special location is a room containing a bath or shower, swimming pool or a sauna heater.
An alteration or addition to an existing circuit in a room containing a bath or shower is notifiable only where carried out in the space surrounding a bath or shower.
An alteration or addition anywhere within a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater is notifiable.
[h=3]What do I need to do before electrical installation work can be carried out in my home?[/h]You must first check whether the work is notifiable. If it is then you must either;
• employ an electrician who is registered with one of the Government-approved scheme providers; or tell (‘notify’) your local-authority building-control about the installation work before work begins.
From April 2014 you will also be able to employ a non-registered electrical installer who has appointed a registered third party certifier to carry out the required inspection and testing of the work both during and on completion.
[h=3]The benefits of using a registered electrician[/h]We strongly recommend that you use a registered electrician to do any electrical work in or around your home. If you use a registered electrician, you can expect to have safe electrical installation work done, as the work should meet the UK national standard, BS 7671 (Requirements for Electrical Installations). You will not have to deal with building control directly and when the work is finished you should receive:

• an Electrical Installation Certificate or, where applicable, a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate that confirms the work meets BS 7671; and

• a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate that confirms the work meets the Building Regulations.

If the work carried out by the registered electrician doesn’t meet the requirements of the Building Regulations, you will have access to a formal complaints procedure.
You can also choose to take out an insurance-backed guarantee when you have the work done, and, if the work is later found not to meet Building Regulations, you can make a claim.
[h=3]What if I don’t use a registered electrician?[/h]If you use an installer who is not a registered competent person, he or she must notify the registered third-party certifier within five (5) days of completing the work. The registered third-party certifier will then, subject to the results of the inspection and testing being satisfactory, complete either an Electrical Installation Condition Report (based on the model shown in BS 7671) or one that has been specifically developed for the purposes of Part P and give it to the person ordering the work.
[h=3]How do I find a registered electrician?[/h]We recommend that you follow some simple suggestions before you choose an electrician. Click here to find the best way to search for a competent electrician.
For more information on Part P, click here to visit the planning portal on the Department for Communities and Local Government website.

then get back to us.

(copied & pasted from electrical safety first website).

Building Regulations in England - Electrical Safety First

 

[Silly Sausage]

You're wasting your time Glenn, too many sheep around.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

You're wasting your time Glenn, too many sheep around.

looks that way...i`m afraid..

 

[Guest111]

It's all a load of cobblers,we all saw that garbage done by a so called "professional registered electrician" posted on here the other week! Now I was with Glenn when he tackled the NI guy about it at Elex and he just got nowhere.Now Glenn does go at things like a bull at a gate,I know he won't mind me saying that so I tried being as I can be very diplomatic when I want and all I got was a load of rubbish about how they'd only act if the customer complains and refusing to answer questions due to the data protection act!Which incidentally doesn't apply to what I was asking.It's a load of rubbish, nothing has been thought through properly and the whole thing is just a way of separating electricians from their hard earned cash.Incidentally from August the 1st 2014 it will be an offence for any electrician to carry out any work without being registered with me under the new INMC ruling all members must be deemed competent and have appropriate test gear (neon screwdriver and voltstick) send your cheques now guys and beat the rush.
What do you think guys,could I be onto a nice little earner here?lol



INMC=i need more cash

 

[stevethesparks]

Incidentally from August the 1st 2014 it will be an offence for any electrician to carry out any work without being registered with me under the new INMC ruling all members must be deemed competent and have appropriate test gear (neon screwdriver and voltstick) send your cheques now guys and beat the rush.

Can you advise of the address to send my cheque to, and will I get a nice sticker to put on my vehicle?

 

[UNG]

Can you advise of the address to send my cheque to, and will I get a nice sticker to put on my vehicle?

You might get a nice sucker to attach to your vehicle

 

[telectrix]

who wants to join my new scam? Northern Independent Competent Electrical Installation Contractors. (NICEIC for short). Please make cheques payable to Campaign Against Segregated Horsesh!t ( CASH for short)

 

[Geordie Spark]

Gavin you just talked a hell of a lot of sense. A lot of that is exactly what I want to see but (and it's a huge but) the scams will not allow that to happen because it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg/ the gift that just keeps giving.
That's why I and many others want to see them out of the equation because all they're interested in is their salary and pension schemes. They don't give a flying fig about what they are supposed to do and claim to be doing. Driving up standards.
I'll respond point by point in the morning because just now I've had a few and I'm watching Biffy Clyro from T in the Park (fantastic btw) and I'd probably struggle to be coherent

A Geordie struggling to be coherent???

That'll be a first!!

 

[telectrix]

there is a difference between coherent and gobby.

 

[Geordie Spark]

there is a difference between coherent and gobby.

Of course there is Tel - a Geordie is coherent and a Scouser is just gobby.

 

[tidyboiler]

Of course there is Tel - a Geordie is coherent and a Scouser is just gobby.

Whereas a Staffie is just...................... :dita:

 

[telectrix]

staffie?

 

[Geordie Spark]

staffie?

View attachment 25548

NOT Staffie dog Tel ........... She means Staffie Pikey. Not very tall with short nose & broad ... hindquarters.

 

[tidyboiler]

NOT Staffie dog Tel ........... She means Staffie Pikey. Not very tall with short nose & broad ... hindquarters.

Erm.................. you know what I promised you Monday night....................... well.............. :dita:



edited to add "you can make your own dinner now"

 

[Geordie Spark]

Erm.................. you know what I promised you Monday night....................... well.............. :dita:



edited to add "you can make your own dinner now"

Awww ............ Buggeritt!!

 

[edrobbo8]

MDJ,

You are bang on. I was with ELECSA until last March (2013), when my renewal came up I wasn't doing a lot of domestic jobs, they kept calling me for payment and to organise an assessment date. I told them to look at my history of notifications, and there weren't many over the 2 previous years, and since I refused to renew my membership, I have done dozens of jobs where Building Control (Gloucester, Cheltenham and Cotswolds) have been involved with the building works, and not once has one of the many inspectors asked am I Part P registered! They have all said the same - as long as the work is done to 17th standards and cables are run in safe zones etc (which they can normally see as they appear at different stages of building work) then complete an EIC and they are happy. In fact, as long as there is an extractor fan in every bathroom and plenty of smoke alarms they seem to be happy!

The scams are just that - a scam. I haven't had a customer ask me if I am Part P registered since 2011, when that customer happened to work in local government.

Crack on and get the jobs done safely, quickly and to a good standard to keep up your good reputation!!!

 

[telectrix]

Hello, fellow sparkies. I’m a fully qualified electrician having done a 5 week course , got my Part P and everything. Got my NICEIC domestic installer inspection in 2 weeks. Going to rewire my parents house for the inspector to see. It’s a prefab, all concrete, built about 1950 and is wired in that awful round copper covered cable that fits into the boxes with brass nuts. It’s all 2 core cable, so there’s no earth. I’m going to do it all in stickyback plastic trunking, should only take me about a week. The niceic want a small job as well, so I plan to fit a circuit for washing machine and tumble dryer in the only place in my small flat where they will fit. The bathroom. As the floor is tiled, I can’t get to the socket cables, so I plan to come from the bathroom light in the attic, down the corner of the bathroom in trunking, under the bath, and fit a double socket under the bath where the taps are. I’ve looked up in the regulations, and that’s OK because you need a screwdriver to get the panel off. Also it makes the plumbing easy, straight from the tap pipes. And, because there’s no earth on the lighting, I can fix a wire from the earth of the socket to the cold water pipe. One thing I could not understand from the course is why I need to use thick cable on showers and cookers. Is it something to do with the bigger cable allowing the amps to flow faster, like bigger water pipes allow faster water flowing?

 

[Guest77]

Hello, fellow sparkies. I’m a fully qualified electrician having done a 5 week course , got my Part P and everything. Got my NICEIC domestic installer inspection in 2 weeks. Going to rewire my parents house for the inspector to see. It’s a prefab, all concrete, built about 1950 and is wired in that awful round copper covered cable that fits into the boxes with brass nuts. It’s all 2 core cable, so there’s no earth. I’m going to do it all in stickyback plastic trunking, should only take me about a week. The niceic want a small job as well, so I plan to fit a circuit for washing machine and tumble dryer in the only place in my small flat where they will fit. The bathroom. As the floor is tiled, I can’t get to the socket cables, so I plan to come from the bathroom light in the attic, down the corner of the bathroom in trunking, under the bath, and fit a double socket under the bath where the taps are. I’ve looked up in the regulations, and that’s OK because you need a screwdriver to get the panel off. Also it makes the plumbing easy, straight from the tap pipes. And, because there’s no earth on the lighting, I can fix a wire from the earth of the socket to the cold water pipe. One thing I could not understand from the course is why I need to use thick cable on showers and cookers. Is it something to do with the bigger cable allowing the amps to flow faster, like bigger water pipes allow faster water flowing?

Ah so you own a white card with "ELECTRIC" written on it as well then?

 

[Midwest]

Pheeewwww. Just read this thread from being to end, not word for word mind, I need a beer or GT. Interesting, see both sides. It's been a bit quiet on here for a few days, so I thought I would stir things up again. Quoting; employ an electrician who is registered with one of the Government-approved scheme providers; or tell (‘notify’) your local-authority building-control about the installation work before work begins.
From April 2014 you will also be able to employ a non-registered electrical installer who has appointed a registered third party certifier to carry out the required inspection and testing of the work both during and on completion.
Out of interest, those of us not enrolled in a scam, sorry scheme, what happens when you tell your customer to notify the LABC? My LABC wants £400 for the privilege, not that I have any evidence they have charged that (but me the customer ain't gonna pay it). So what about third party inspection; you get stuffed I pay £500 a year to be a GASP registered electrician. Or just say nothing, easy option till it goes wrong, you'll be gripping the bars alone answering questions to some Michael Mansfield QC cos you PL insurance is null & void (dam insurance companies always try wriggle out of their responsibilities). So we are stuffed then really, or you just do commercial instead? By the way, it was a G&T, but I am just a big southern softy.

 

[trev]

Nowt wrong with a G&T mate, I have them in my more civilised moments.
There is the option of doing it in such a way that it's not going to go wrong, ie the right and proper way. That way the only way you can conceivably be in a court is for none notification.

 

[amckay]

Hello, fellow sparkies. I’m a fully qualified electrician having done a 5 week course , got my Part P and everything. Got my NICEIC domestic installer inspection in 2 weeks. Going to rewire my parents house for the inspector to see. It’s a prefab, all concrete, built about 1950 and is wired in that awful round copper covered cable that fits into the boxes with brass nuts. It’s all 2 core cable, so there’s no earth. I’m going to do it all in stickyback plastic trunking, should only take me about a week. The niceic want a small job as well, so I plan to fit a circuit for washing machine and tumble dryer in the only place in my small flat where they will fit. The bathroom. As the floor is tiled, I can’t get to the socket cables, so I plan to come from the bathroom light in the attic, down the corner of the bathroom in trunking, under the bath, and fit a double socket under the bath where the taps are. I’ve looked up in the regulations, and that’s OK because you need a screwdriver to get the panel off. Also it makes the plumbing easy, straight from the tap pipes. And, because there’s no earth on the lighting, I can fix a wire from the earth of the socket to the cold water pipe. One thing I could not understand from the course is why I need to use thick cable on showers and cookers. Is it something to do with the bigger cable allowing the amps to flow faster, like bigger water pipes allow faster water flowing?

Spot on that is tel. Crack on!

 

[Midwest]

That way the only way you can conceivably be in a court is for none notification.

Please expand me great mate, ran out of gin now on the vino.

 

[trev]

Please expand me great mate, ran out of gin now on the vino.

If you've done something which is notifiable but have not notified, as long as everything is compliant how can you possibly be dragged in front of a court for anything as long as you have told the customer that it is their responsibility to notify and not passed yourself of as a CPS member

 

[Midwest]

Just noticed 'Government-approved scheme providers' or GASP for short, is defined as 'To draw in the breath sharply, as from shock!

 

[telectrix]

shoulkd really be govt' related approved scheme providers.. GRASP.

 

[Midwest]

Anyhow enough banter, what about a repost to my post, before I have to get on with the BBQ?

 

[trev]

Never mind that mate just get your pinny on and get cooking

 

[Midwest]

Already there........whats wrong with wearing a pinny, manly apron?

 

[telectrix]

hope that the metalwork of the bbq is bonded.

 

[trev]

Nothing wrong with it at all mate. I just thought you should get a reminder to put it on just in case. H&S you know, concerned for your well being.

 

[telectrix]

is this your apron?

 

[jaydebruyne]

I'm probably going to get strung up here but what the hell.

I'm in full support of what you said CPRFENOM, and the opinion of GavinA. Part P of the Buildings Regulations is a document which is upheld by law. It's not a guidance document like the British Standards BS7671. All BS documents do is give you guidelines to help you adhere to what the regulations expect from you when carrying out any works.

I'm a complete novice with electrics and have just completed week 1 of a stupidly short 3 week course to do Part P and 17th Edition.

Do I think it will make me competent? Not a f***ing chance.
Will I call myself an electrician. Not on your life!
But it will give me a step in the right direction, so when I find a lovely sparky in London who will let me shadow them I can start getting some actual experience.

I have also just completed a 6 week plumbing course and managed to land myself an apprenticeship with an experienced plumber. My main thing is to be a plumber BUT I would like to install electrical circuits for immersions and electric showers without having to call an extra tradesperson out.

At the end of the day, I do not want to make light of your hard earned careers by doing a 3 week course and thinking I'm on the same tier as a sparky who's been in the game for 30 years. I just want to do the little bits I want to do and that's that. But I have to abide by the law and that means getting Part P / 17th qualified and probably joining a competent persons scheme (once I've gained some experience) - although I would rather not based on how much they charge.

I DO agree, however, that these competent persons schemes are extortionately priced and seems to be a thriving business, probably earning the government a tidy sum by scaremongering newbies like myself into joining them or paying £300 a job for the building services to assess my work.

Anyway ...

We all start from somewhere, don't we!