Approved tradesmen scheme

[oscar21]

We used to regularly have threads on here complaining about how joining the NICEIC etc is too easy and they are letting anyone in.
Many posts would be calling for the NICEIC to toughen up their membership requirements and only allow fully qualified electricians to join.


And now here we have a thread complaining that they've done what we were asking for!

Its not that we are complaining about them being too stringent, its more to do with the fact that to wire a socket in a bedroom for someone you need to jump though numerous expensive hoops but to wire a full factory with three phase and many killing machines you don't need anything, its just madness.

In my opinion every spark should be assessed just once or maybe every 10 years or so to see if they can actually do the job, if they can then they can operate as an electrician whether they have qualifications or not, they could then get a licence to operate as an electrician in any field, payable to the government, just like a driving licence. You wouldn't be able to employ anyone who didn't have a licence and use yours instead, just like a driver cant use your driving licence to drive a truck.

But where is the money in that, imagine the NICEIC faced with that scenario, they would run out of brown envelopes trying to stop it.

 

[pirate]

£700 for a cooker feed sounds about right to me! I'll run them in all day and night for that!
Anyway, just to put a different slant on paying £500 a year for joining a scheme, in a previous life my "scheme" charged £1200/year and there was no way of avoiding that. Plus, you had to show evidence of PI cover (no choice of provider, you had to use the schemes provider) and at the last count the premium was around £50k, on top of which you had to pay an excess of £9k on each and every claim, and you also had to show at least 20 hours CPD each year.
So glad I retired and just do smokes, ISITEE, minor domestic electrics and LRA for some private landlords. As I've said before, the paperwork now is minimal, thank goodness!

 

[oscar21]

Its no even the £500 a year thats the problem, I don't mind paying that if it keeps the cowboys out. Its the never ending changes to everything, all because they want to maximise their revenue stream, not to make things any safer. remember when an amendment to the regs meant printing out a bit of paper and sticking it into your book, nowadays an amendment means you have to buy an new £80 book and do a £400 update course, all so you can carry on doing exactly the same as you did before.

 

[DPG]

Its no even the £500 a year thats the problem, I don't mind paying that if it keeps the cowboys out. Its the never ending changes to everything, all because they want to maximise their revenue stream, not to make things any safer. remember when an amendment to the regs meant printing out a bit of paper and sticking it into your book, nowadays an amendment means you have to buy an new £80 book and do a £400 update course, all so you can carry on doing exactly the same as you did before.

But it's the same in a lot of other professions don't forget.

And you don't carry on exactly as you did before - you adapt to changes. Otherwise nobody would be fitting RCBOs, SPDs, etc and would still be fitting type AC RCDs.

 

[nicebutdim]

But it's the same in a lot of other professions don't forget.

And you don't carry on exactly as you did before - you adapt to changes. Otherwise nobody would be fitting RCBOs, SPDs, etc and would still be fitting type AC RCDs.

It's 100 times worse in many professions. Life in this day and age is about regulation and arse covering - we can accept this and live with it or ignore it and deal with the potential consequences.

 

[oscar21]

It's 100 times worse in many professions. Life in this day and age is about regulation and arse covering - we can accept this and live with it or ignore it and deal with the potential consequences.

With the amount of dodgy wiring I rip out (its every single job I ever go to) its plainly obvious to me the consequences are zero.

 

[nicebutdim]

With the amount of dodgy wiring I rip out (its every single job I ever go to) its plainly obvious to me the consequences are zero.

Do whatever you feel you need to do where regulations are concerned, but moaning on a forum isn't going to make any difference. You have the freedom of personal choice: comply or don't. While I agree that little seems to be done about dangerous work, it's worth remembering that you only have to be unlucky once when choosing to ignore regulations which aren't to your liking.

I do hope if you're unlucky enough to be the exception who faces consequences that you take it on the chin and not moan about how others always get away with it.

 

[oscar21]

Do whatever you feel you need to do where regulations are concerned, but moaning on a forum isn't going to make any difference. You have the freedom of personal choice: comply or don't. While I agree that little seems to be done about dangerous work, it's worth remembering that you only have to be unlucky once when choosing to ignore regulations which aren't to your liking.

I do hope if you're unlucky enough to be the exception who faces consequences that you take it on the chin and not moan about how others always get away with it.

Not sure why its gone from me not agreeing with how its all set up and accusing the part P schemers of scamming people to me being a cowboy who does dodgy work but hey ho.

 

[nicebutdim]

Not sure why its gone from me not agreeing with how its all set up and accusing the part P schemers of scamming people to me being a cowboy who does dodgy work but hey ho.

Who accused you of scamming customers or being a cowboy? I simply addressed your points about not complying with regulations.

 

[davesparks]

Its not that we are complaining about them being too stringent, its more to do with the fact that to wire a socket in a bedroom for someone you need to jump though numerous expensive hoops but to wire a full factory with three phase and many killing machines you don't need anything, its just madness.

So your issue isn't with the NICEIC then but is in fact with the building regulations?

 

[davesparks]

But where is the money in that, imagine the NICEIC faced with that scenario, they would run out of brown envelopes trying to stop it.

I think the NICEIC would carry on being what they have always been, a club which electrical contractors can join if they want to.

 

[davesparks]

With the amount of dodgy wiring I rip out (its every single job I ever go to) its plainly obvious to me the consequences are zero.

There are consequences.

I've been to A&E as a result of someones dodgy work, I know of one electrician who lost their eyesight for 3 days and the company where I served my apprenticeship had previously had an apprentice electrician die due to someone else's dodgy work.

The consequences are very serious!

 

[rewireIT]

There are consequences.

I've been to A&E as a result of someones dodgy work, I know of one electrician who lost their eyesight for 3 days and the company where I served my apprenticeship had previously had an apprentice electrician die due to someone else's dodgy work.

The consequences are very serious!

So not notifying = work that puts people in hospital? Come on you don't really believe that.

 

[davesparks]

So not notifying = work that puts people in hospital? Come on you don't really believe that.

Read the post that I was replying to, it is saying that there are zero consequences to dodgy electrical work.

 

[oscar21]

Read the post that I was replying to, it is saying that there are zero consequences to dodgy electrical work.

Zero for the person doing the dodgy work. I myself have been injured due to other peoples incompetence. There is only ever one case that made the media from what I can recal, Emma Shaw and then the tester only got a slap on the wrist, that was 10 years ago or more.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Did not the guy who wired up the outside lights in the Public house where the child was killed go to prison?

 

[LukeD]

Did not the guy who wired up the outside lights in the Public house where the child was killed go to prison?

The main reason it got media attention was along the lines of a relative was a MP?

 

[nicebutdim]

Did not the guy who wired up the outside lights in the Public house where the child was killed go to prison?

12 months.

The main reason it got media attention was along the lines of a relative was a MP?

That was a different case.


A local electrician was jailed a few months back for 45 months. Granted he was caught carrying 4kg of cocaine.



Quite a few electricians have been jailed for leaving behind dangerous work and also for causing death through negligence. I have this thing called Google and it took me seconds to find quite a few examples in recent years.

 

[ipf]

There is a certain matter conscience involved here.
Just because 'rules' are not followed or even ignored, doesn't mean they are wrong.

It is a law of the land that many domestic installations, of all kind, should be notified. If an electrician, for example, wants to bypass said law, it is up to them. If danger and problems result, let them take the consequences.......but if someone dies as a result, could they care a tinkers about conscience and taking blame?

Most of our customers request certification and, in domestic instances, registration with the local authority. So we do it, not just because it is required by law. After all, as an NICEIC member, we did everything else but register before it began. To me, it meant a lot more then.

To tell you the truth, I don't half see some crap work around....dangerous and extremely sub standard. Are those responsible scam registered or are they taking back handers in the pub? Or do they just refuse to bow to 'rules', lawful or not?

You pay your money, you take your chance, it seems......as usual....and that is getting more worrying by the day.

 

[Mike Johnson]

There is a certain matter conscience involved here.
Just because 'rules' are not followed or even ignored, doesn't mean they are wrong.

Even the British Standards are not rules, but advisory, they may well be used in court as a reference, but if proof can be given that the work was over and above the standard then that would be taken into account and any case based on the BS would be void, the HSE are not in the business of bringing case's to court that they don't think they can win, in the case of a death however, that would be a criminal proceeding and not brought by the HSE even if they where asked for comment as they may well have been called to the scene of the accident/failure.

 

[rewireIT]

It is a law of the land that many domestic installations, of all kind, should be notified. If an electrician, for example, wants to bypass said law, it is up to them. If danger and problems result, let them take the consequences.......but if someone dies as a result, could they care a tinkers about conscience and taking blame?

Again for some reason we're equating not telling someone you've done work with potential danger. Why? Why would 'danger and problems result' from not notifying?

 

[nicebutdim]

Again for some reason we're equating not telling someone you've done work with potential danger. Why? Why would 'danger and problems result' from not notifying?

That link has been made numerous times by others defending the notion of non compliance with building regulations. As such it is quite reasonable to respond to the argument.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

That link has been made numerous times by others defending the notion of non compliance with building regulations. As such it is quite reasonable to respond to the argument.

Pehaps I'm misread ipf's post, but I too am struggling to see how not notifying a job would result in death.

 

[loz2754]

Someone who has such a blasé attitude to complying with the statutory requirement to notify, is likely to carry over that attitude to other aspects of their work. Such as the requirements for earthing the armour of an armoured cable.

 

[LukeD]

Even the British Standards are not rules, but advisory, they may well be used in court as a reference, but if proof can be given that the work was over and above the standard then that would be taken into account and any case based on the BS would be void, the HSE are not in the business of bringing case's to court that they don't think they can win, in the case of a death however, that would be a criminal proceeding and not brought by the HSE even if they where asked for comment as they may well have been called to the scene of the accident/failure.

Rules /law /guidelines. Amazing how millions didnt know the difference during covid !

 

[Pretty Mouth]

Someone who has such a blasé attitude to complying with the statutory requirement to notify, is likely to carry over that attitude to other aspects of their work. Such as the requirements for earthing the armour of an armoured cable.

There may be some truth in this, although I think it's more likely to be the other way round - someone who carries out sloppy work is less likely to go to the effort of notifying the job. That said, I (and probably most of us here) have seen work where about the only thing that was done right was the notification.

 

[davesparks]

Pehaps I'm misread ipf's post, but I too am struggling to see how not notifying a job would result in death.

It won't.

There was an earlier post suggesting that all of the dangerous work out there never had any consequences.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

It won't.

There was an earlier post suggesting that all of the dangerous work out there never had any consequences.

This is the post I'm referring to:

It is a law of the land that many domestic installations, of all kind, should be notified. If an electrician, for example, wants to bypass said law, it is up to them. If danger and problems result, let them take the consequences.......but if someone dies as a result, could they care a tinkers about conscience and taking blame?

 

[ipf]

Pehaps I'm misread ipf's post, but I too am struggling to see how not notifying a job would result in death.

It reads bad, yes. My fault, late.
Maybe As a result of things in general not being done correctly.
or 'If danger and problems result, due to bad workmanship,

Danger would not result from non notification but notifying is, to some extent, a method of taking responsibility for the job as a whole.
It is only part P, after all

 

[ipf]

I'll agree, the system is a mess, but it's not going to improve the situation if sparks, be they PP registered or not, just ignore it.

 

[LukeD]

Boy, 10, dies after electric shock at Blackpool hotel Tiffany's

The child was found unresponsive on Sunday at a Blackpool hotel and died on Thursday, police say.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[DPG]

Boy, 10, dies after electric shock at Blackpool hotel Tiffany's

The child was found unresponsive on Sunday at a Blackpool hotel and died on Thursday, police say.

www.bbc.co.uk

Just started a thread on that one earlier. Be interesting to see what occurred.

 

[rewireIT]

I'll agree, the system is a mess, but it's not going to improve the situation if sparks, be they PP registered or not, just ignore it.

It would though. If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place. You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection. Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely. The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise. It should imo be rolled into the inspection and testing qualification as they sort of go hand in hand.

If this isn't good enough, then instead of introducing stupid rules like schemes they should simply make the qualifications more in depth and harder to achieve.

 

[nicebutdim]

It would though. If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place. You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection. Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely. The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise.

If this isn't good enough, then instead of introducing stupid rules like schemes they should simply make the qualifications more in depth and harder to achieve.

Some of those suggestions are great, but at odds with the fact that on many occasions you've told people not to bother with qualifications and to crack on regardless.

 

[loz2754]

You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

This I totally agree with.

 

[7029 dave]

It would though. If every spark said 'No, this is stupid and i'm not doing it. Let's see you police it, LOL.' they would HAVE to put sensible rules in place. You know like letting qualified men actually install basic circuits in houses without having to pay for it. The qualifications mean nothing if you can't use them to carry out the actual work they relate to.

IMO the qualifications should be 18th, NVQ, AM2, and full testing and inspection. Once you have those you should be able to touch any install you like without having to pay because passing them proves you know how to do electrics safely. The only thing i would change about this is i would make the 18th test an actual test of your knowledge on the regs and not just a 'can you find it in the book' exercise. It should imo be rolled into the inspection and testing qualification as they sort of go hand in hand.

If this isn't good enough, then instead of introducing stupid rules like schemes they should simply make the qualifications more in depth and harder to achieve.

You cant make the 18th a closed book exam, nobody can digest the whole book lol

 

[rewireIT]

You cant make the 18th a closed book exam, nobody can digest the whole book lol

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

'Customer wants upstairs and downstairs sockets and lighting, outside lighting, power to an outbuilding powering X circuits, a cooker, a shower, and a hive system for heating/hot water.'

And then you have a professional discussion after where you describe why you chose a 20a radial for the sockets in the shed instead of a ring. Or why you put all incoming cables into one entry hole. Or why you used SWA for the outdoor building. Or why you used a fused spur here and not there. What height did you put sockets and why? Why have you put labels on stuff?

 

[LukeD]

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

Thats a good point

 

[nicebutdim]

Well no but you could instead for example have it as a part of the AM2 where you are given a made up customer spec and made to install it to regs, proving you know practical application of 7671.

What do you think the AM2 is?

It involves installing to a given spec. You make a list of materials and get to work - obviously the installation must comply with BS7671.

Edit: To be fair you also suggest an element of design, which would indeed be a good addition to it.

 

[pirate]

I took my car to the main dealer due to an intermittent fault with the electrics. Ok, intermittent ones are a hassle...but the mechanic, sorry, technician, was finally able to replicate the fault...but his computer couldn't tell him what it was or how to fix it because the computer didn't have that fault code. Not the technicians fault, he is highly trained and has all the certificates for working on this vehicle.
In effect, he has his Domestic Installer badge and is "Part P" registered (?) (so glad it's not a thing in Scotland) but he has no idea how to fix the problem. I leave. It's a minor glitch and life is short.
A week later I went to a local tyre place, needing 2 new tyres. As I chatted to the proprietor I mentioned the problem I had with the electrics.
5 minutes later he came back and said it was fixed...a well known problem with these cars...
Experience? Yes. Paperwork and certificates? No.
Do a good job and be able to repel all those who question your work. If you do a good job, you need no backup. If you do a bad job, your scheme membership will not save you...nor should it.
Plough your furrow, but plough it well.