Discuss Poor install EICR 12 year old hotel in the Electrical Forum area at ElectriciansForums.net

conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
Carrying out an eicr. Thoughts on these DBs installed in each room. Around 20 have been installed in this manner with no gland on the supply SWA and the top surface of the DB completely removed.
Note the plasterboard hole is small in this image compared to some.
What do you think other than replacing baring in mind the rcbos for this DB can be £100 alone. Paxolin to slide in etc? Time. Shame for the customer who has had this poor installation.15466098772531807210984.jpg 15466099287081870504917.jpg
I have noted as C2 for a number of different reasons. As follows if you wish to read.
522.8.5.
The SWA cable entering the DB has no gland fitted. C2
701.411.3.3
Circuits passing through and supplying accessories in loaction containing bath/shower not provided with RCD protection. C3
527.2.1
Large Hole not made good in plaster board above DB to prevent the spread of fire. C2
411.3.3
No RCD protection on socket outlets, commercial premesis. C2 (Fridge Socket)
522.6.202
No RCD protection for cables buried in the walls. C3
416.2.2
Top surface of Distribution Board has been removed. The integrity of the DB has not been maintained during installation. ip4x not maintained. C2.

15466099609611453904172.jpg
 

telectrix

Scouser and Proud.
Respected Member
Messages
60,293
Location
cheshire/staffordshire
Carrying out an eicr. Thoughts on these DBs installed in each room. Around 20 have been installed in this manner with no gland on the supply SWA and the top surface of the DB completely removed.
Note the plasterboard hole is small in this image compared to some.
What do you think other than replacing baring in mind the rcbos for this DB can be £100 alone. Paxolin to slide in etc? Time. Shame for the customer who has had this poor installation.View attachment 46899 View attachment 46900
I have noted as C2 for a number of different reasons. As follows if you wish to read.
522.8.5.
The SWA cable entering the DB has no gland fitted. C2
701.411.3.3
Circuits passing through and supplying accessories in loaction containing bath/shower not provided with RCD protection. C3
527.2.1 C2
Large Hole not made good in plaster board above DB to prevent the spread of fire. C2
411.3.3
No RCD protection on socket outlets, commercial premesis. C2 (Fridge Socket)
522.6.202
No RCD protection for cables buried in the walls. C3. C2
416.2.2
Top surface of Distribution Board has been removed. The integrity of the DB has not been maintained during installation. ip4x not maintained. C2.

View attachment 46901
my thoughts added to above. might be ott, but that's what i think.
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
If the swa is glanded at the supply end and the armour is at least connected to earth, I can’t see how it can possibly be a C2 unless there is signs of mechanical stresses on the cable at the load end?
 

Flanders

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,358
Location
Tamworth
Agree with you on most of them but not the code 2 for sockets outlets, unless they can be used out doors, Yes I agree it would be better to have RCD protection but not sure if I could justify a code 2 it would be a code 3 for me if they can not be use outdoors.
 

telectrix

Scouser and Proud.
Respected Member
Messages
60,293
Location
cheshire/staffordshire
Agree with you on most of them but not the code 2 for sockets outlets, unless they can be used out doors, Yes I agree it would be better to have RCD protection but not sure if I could justify a code 2 it would be a code 3 for me if they can not be use outdoors.
have to disagree with that. just as easy to damage an appliance flex indoors as it is outdoors, so a potential danger.... ergo a C2.
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
have to disagree with that. just as easy to damage an appliance flex indoors as it is outdoors, so a potential danger.... ergo a C2.
The idea is tho that you are now outside the equipotential bonding using outdoor equipment so I’d agree that if socket outlets that are not likely to be used outdoors and this is carefull considered by the inspector perhaps in conjunction with the client, then I agree a C3 at worst for no rcd protection to sockets.
You are coding against additional protection to the user and not the equipment plugged into it
For a specific socket used as in the op for a fridge it can’t possibly be a C2 code
 
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telectrix

Scouser and Proud.
Respected Member
Messages
60,293
Location
cheshire/staffordshire
agree with the fridge socket. we have 3 freezers and a fridge/freezer in garage, aka man cave. no RCD on sockets. ifi get zapped, it's my own fault. the 2 outside sockets on the circuit however are both RCD sockets. bench supplies are similar to this:
 

littlespark

Electrician's Arms
Messages
2,395
Location
Scottish Borders
Is this one of those big modular hotels where the entire bedroom is craned into position and "plugged in"?
I'm thinking its a big concrete or metal box. A fire within the room or the CU would be confined to the module itself. The hole in the plasterboard doesn't go through to the rest of the hotel.
 

Flanders

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,358
Location
Tamworth
Thinking about the hole I would not code 2 for fire reasons because as long as all the terminals are tight its not going to catch on fire , but might code 2 it due to the amount of dust debris that could build up inside the CU and get into the terminals due to the large hole.
 

wirepuller

Forum Mentor
Messages
5,528
Location
south uk
The DB will be IPX4 with the cover on,as access is prevented by the ceiling. Code 3 as manufacturers instructions not complied with . The coding for the bath/ shower room would depend on the presence or not of supplementary bonding, code 2 without, code 3 with. If there is any possibility of movement on the SWA I would code 2, otherwise code 3.
A socket outlet without RCD protection cannot possibly be potentially dangerous unless there is a particular hazard, such as supplying mobile equipment outdoors. An indoor socket for a fridge cannot warrant a code 2, code 3 is appropriate.
 
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
Agree with you on most of them but not the code 2 for sockets outlets, unless they can be used out doors, Yes I agree it would be better to have RCD protection but not sure if I could justify a code 2 it would be a code 3 for me if they can not be use outdoors.
In a commercial premesis it is marked as a C2 in the Napit codebreakers book.
 
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
Is this one of those big modular hotels where the entire bedroom is craned into position and "plugged in"?
I'm thinking its a big concrete or metal box. A fire within the room or the CU would be confined to the module itself. The hole in the plasterboard doesn't go through to the rest of the hotel.
No
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
In a commercial premesis it is marked as a C2 in the Napit codebreakers book.
They also code 2 pvc cables not rcd protected in walls less than 50mm from surface so it’s not to be taken as gospel in my opinion.
Books like this can have the opposite effect as in people will use it as gospel rather than coding it on the current circumstances
 
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
Thinking about the hole I would not code 2 for fire reasons because as long as all the terminals are tight its not going to catch on fire , but might code 2 it due to the amount of dust debris that could build up inside the CU and get into the terminals due to the large hole.
Again reading the napit codebreakers book it states holes not made goot as to reduce the spread of fire are C2. I would rather C2 and have a valid reference such as a book than to C3 it and argue against it.
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
Again reading the napit codebreakers book it states holes not made goot as to reduce the spread of fire are C2. I would rather C2 and have a valid reference such as a book than to C3 it and argue against it.
You have bs 7671 as reference.
It can be considered a C2 if it’s a fire barrier as per section 527
 
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C

conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
Thinking about the hole I would not code 2 for fire reasons because as long as all the terminals are tight its not going to catch on fire , but might code 2 it due to the amount of dust debris that could build up inside the CU and get into the terminals due to the large hole.
Again reading the napit codebreakers book it states holes not made goot as to reduce the spread of fire are C2. I would rather C2 and have a valid reference such as a book than to C3 it and argue against it.
Napit are wrong then.
I disagree. If someone was to plug something in
You have bs 7671 as reference.
It can be considered a C2 if it’s a fire barrier
527.2.1 is the reg attached to the coding in the napit book. Obviously there will be no mention of coding in the regs but again i would rather have a reference, although i agree not gospel.
 

Flanders

Regular EF Member
Messages
1,358
Location
Tamworth
Again reading the napit codebreakers book it states holes not made goot as to reduce the spread of fire are C2. I would rather C2 and have a valid reference such as a book than to C3 it and argue against it.
There is no right or wrong answer its down to the persifics of each situation and you make a judgment call on it I will stick with my code 3 but would not judge someone else if they where to code 2 it .
 
OP
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
The idea is tho that you are now outside the equipotential bonding using outdoor equipment so I’d agree that if socket outlets that are not likely to be used outdoors and this is carefull considered by the inspector perhaps in conjunction with the client, then I agree a C3 at worst for no rcd protection to sockets.
You are coding against additional protection to the user and not the equipment plugged into it
For a specific socket used as in the op for a fridge it can’t possibly be a C2 code
The sockets are not labelled, no risk assessment and they are not being used for the fridges in alot of the rooms. The client also said that he often finds the fridges have been unplugged as there isnt enough sockets in the rooms
 
OP
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
If the swa is glanded at the supply end and the armour is at least connected to earth, I can’t see how it can possibly be a C2 unless there is signs of mechanical stresses on the cable at the load end?
Cant see above the DB to see if its cleated well and they all seam to be coming in at angles. Its all together rough so ill stick with C2. If i was to share some of the communal areas you would agree. The rooms are good compared.
 
OP
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
There is no right or wrong answer its down to the persifics of each situation and you make a judgment call on it I will stick with my code 3 but would not judge someone else if they where to code 2 it .
I think youd agree that it is rough and would prefer to see the DB installed properly and stick an rcd socket on the socket not protected as again the client has stated people unplug the fridge and use it for all sorts.
Does it give a reason for this? , also is a hotel classed as commercial I thought they would be classed as simply a hotel
Yes its classed as commercial premesis.
 

wirepuller

Forum Mentor
Messages
5,528
Location
south uk
Regarding the socket, it's a code 3 for me, however in these circumstances I always add an advisory note that the provision of RCD protection is strongly recommended. Given that under a very recent edition of Bs7671 the provision of a socket outlet for a specific item of equipment was permitted without RCD protection it is very hard to justify a 'potentially dangerous' code.
 
OP
C

conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
Regarding the socket, it's a code 3 for me, however in these circumstances I always add an advisory note that the provision of RCD protection is strongly recommended. Given that under a very recent edition of Bs7671 the provision of a socket outlet for a specific item of equipment was permitted without RCD protection it is very hard to justify a 'potentially dangerous' code.
But the reg 411.3.3 specifically says risk assessment required and even if ther was its clearly not being used for a specific item of equipment. I still think C2 when the public are involved especially in terms of liability.
 

dmxtothemax

Regular EF Member
Messages
763
Location
Australia
We do not know the conditions under which this instal was done,
It seems to be mostly what people might call sloopy work,
Or not " Best practice " but it is not really dangerous,
it's just not best practice.
Many electrical instals are done to a lower standard,
yet last for decades with no problems.
everything can always be done better
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
It’s the 18th now.
All socket-outlets must have RCD protection.
Risk Assessments are out the window.
Risk assessments are not out of the window on non domestic installations 411.3.3 an exception to (i) is permitted where other than an installation in a dwelling, a documented risk assessment determines that rcd protection is not necessary
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
But the reg 411.3.3 specifically says risk assessment required and even if ther was its clearly not being used for a specific item of equipment. I still think C2 when the public are involved especially in terms of liability.
The regulations do not differ on who is using the sockets so you can’t make that argument
The fact that a documented risk assessment can be used on non domestic installations gives, if anything gives a bit of a relaxation on 411.3.3
 
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conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
The regulations do not differ on who is using the sockets so you can’t make that argument
The fact that a documented risk assessment can be used on non domestic installations gives, if anything gives a bit of a relaxation on 411.3.3
Screenshot_2019-01-04-21-07-18.png
 

Ian1981

Forum Mentor
Messages
2,969
Location
North east
But the reg 411.3.3 specifically says risk assessment required and even if ther was its clearly not being used for a specific item of equipment. I still think C2 when the public are involved especially in terms of liability.
The regulations do not differ on who is using the sockets so you can’t make that argument
they do and can not speak for the whole industry.
I can show you an NICEIC similar list which is available to the online customers which gives a C3.
You see the problem
 
OP
C

conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
I disagree on the relaxation. Its always been for specific use items and in this instance the socket has extention leads plugged in etc. The hotel would be liable in my eyes. You can make the argument as in my eyes the reg does differ from the users when it specifically says risk assessment to be performed in non dwelling etc...
 
OP
C

conrad

Regular EF Member
Messages
114
Location
North wales
I walked into this in a cleaners cupboard in the hotel kitchen. Apparently been like this since it opened. I think you will take your sloppy workmanship statement back. The lid was wide open, i havnt opened it.

20180612_154903.jpg
 

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