Problem customer

[eagleeye]

Hi guys I recently posted a message on here regarding a problem I have. Basically i fitted a new kitchen for them and new electrical circuits. RCD board and all. I noticed that the gas and water had no earth connection on them so told the lady and she didnt want me to do it as i would charge her because it wasnt part of my estimate. Also when i put in the new ringmain 2 sockets on the downstairs stopped working. The house needs a rewire as the wiring is in a right mess as are the old fuse boards and this problem would have been sorted out then. She was refusing to pay me for some other extra work that i did so i didnt give her a certificate until she sorted it out. She has now got in touch with the NICEIC who im registered with and they have sent me a letter about it. they want a response by 11th Feb. What do you people think about this?



Regards
Paul

 

[bugsy]

If you changed the C.U. without doing the required assement i.e. bonding etc your on a sticky wicket
No bonding - No C.U.
Check it out on NIC website dowmload section
I still think your on a very sticky wicket

 

[eagleeye]

New ccu was only doing the new kitchen circuits. the old ccu was left in and was gonna be changed when rewire was done.

 

[baldsparkies]

To be fair the bonding requirements should have been included in your original estimate. Its a code 1 so alarm bells should have rung for you. Its a question of customer/contractor communication breakdown. To be fair its you who has the obligation to supply certification and although frustrating holding back on the certs as a form of blackmail until your paid was not a wise move. You need to think your position through carefully.And try to put your case in a fair way. I wish I could be more helpfull and you have my sympathy for what its worth. Good luck.

 

[bugsy]

Did you find the fault on the two sockets,
Did you recommend PIR

Providing the work you carried out was only on the new ring and that was up to scratch offer them the installion for inspection
but if you install aew C.U.even if it was just for the kitchen bonding requirements still apply

 

[Spudnik]

You cannot with hold a certificate, even if you havent been paid.

Unfortunately these cant be used as leverage when chasing for money.

 

[calv68]

You should of inspected and tested that property first if you where in any doubt about the installation, and informed and quoted the customer accordingly then you wouldnt have been in this mess, i really hope you learn a lesson from this

 

[baldsparkies]

You cannot with hold a certificate, even if you havent been paid.

Unfortunately these cant be used as leverage when chasing for money.

Jason is spot on, as said its never a good idea to hold back on certs. I would get them off to the customer asap. You really need to consider how the niceic are going to view your actions. Try to be proffessional in your responce, and remember there's two sides to every story.

Bit harsh calv, This is an example of where part P can take you. The question should be, are you a kitchen fitter with NICEIC membership or an electrician with NICEIC membership. The can of worms has been well and truly opened.

 

[acat]

I take from what calv has said he is 100% perfect and never made a mistake in his entire life about anything

Chris

 

[calv68]

harsh but true i am only syaing what everybody is thinking. he needs to get round there and sort the earthing out a.s.a.p

 

[marksparky]

that is harsh, if im interpreting right he was to rewire the rest of house after completion of extension and payment? that said it is paramount that these things are checked at quotation stage. this forum is for advice not slandering other peoples mistakes and i think a lesson has already been learnt.

 

[andyb]

Not great, but all you are guilty of is failing to carry initial verifation and tests & then energising your new board before the instalation was complete, ie no bonding. (although this is very serious)

Jason is right in what he says about about holding back certificates for payment but at the moment the installation is not complete as you have not installed main bonding, so you can't issue a certificate.

I think you should go back, isolate your new board & say you can't liven it up untill main bonding is installed, then you can issue a certifcate.

Calv68 is very harsh but it would seem you are not yet quite competent enough to carry out this sort of work,

 

[Anonomoose]

Everyone makes mistakes. I myself have made some corkers, just yesterday infact but i wont go into that. It maybe a pain but could you not just go and do the bonding? I dont know the details of the job but surly a few meters of green n yellow and a few hours labour (even one full day) is worth not getting into trouble with the NIC?
At least you wont hopefully do it again. Plus once you have done it you can sign it off and collect your money.
As for the two sockets I dont know if it is your fault then you should fix them if not its chargeable.

 

[Colonel Hathi]

Hi I agree with the previous post.
Sure anybody can make a mistake.
In this case you really should have checked bonding before proceeding. I am sure you know this.

The customer probably feels completely justified in withholding payment because s/he is probably assuming that you left the place worse than when you found it (whether the faulty sockets are actually your fault or not).

Given that you you accept this, the easiest way out for both of you is to offer to upgrade the bonding at no extra charge (IMHO).

If I were NICEIC, I would look first at whether or not you made any mistake to begin with (I think you have already lost on this one).
I would then look at how you responded when the defect came to light.

Dont allow this to develop to the point that you are wrong on both counts.

I think if you do the bonding at no charge you may even have a chance of persuading the customer to have a full PIR - which sounds needed.

And finally, don't take some of the harsher comments too much to heart - they just reflect a healthy pride in our profession - which I am sure you share.

Hope this works out ok.
CH

 

[sparkswillfly]

sort it out at your cost but dont beat your self up about it . its just a £150-200 learning curb which any who is honest has had, good luck buddy

 

[Darkwood]

With all due respect calv68 do you hit first then ask questions, i understand where your coming from but give the guy the dignity to answer a few questions and as already posted it may be a genuine mistake and hes using this public and professional friendly site for an answer, the case may be that hes in above his neck with regards to his training and the work hes doing but this site is here to assist and in a polite way explain if and when hes out of his depth, and from what ive read he may be too deep but then again he may be just learning the legal ropes .
Think you need to go down the pub and punch someone to vent your anger!!! No offence meant

 

[bugsy]

This is going to be a lesson you wont forget in a hurry,
in retrospect I bet you wish you had installed the bonding sorted the sockets had a happy client got paid and proberbly got a recomondation

 

[Darkwood]

Thankyou lenny for the edit, its a friendly site and not a scene from 'Life on mars' their is more than one way to give an opinion and still put across your point.

 

[Davey101]

Speaking from an employed electricians point of view, i.e not a trading electrician-

Pretty harsh from calv- a mistake was made, simple as that.
The OP should have checked the bonding, as it becomes his responsibility after undertaking the work he has done, as a trading electrician, he should have checked this first- lesson learnt.

The best solution is to have a word with the customer, explain that there is no way forward as it stands, and that as a gesture of good will, the bonding will be done free of charge (you could try getting them to pay for the cable, but this may be pushing it). It will be a bit hard to swallow, but at least it wil be done and finished with. I presume the sockets are the ones in the conservatory? These need to be made live I'm afraid, you cant leave them dead. Its your responsibility to get these working again. Just find the feed to them, and connect them to the ring, via an FCU.

IMO

Edit- just noticed that she isnt paying for some other work that you did for her. Its your word against hers, we cant know who is right or wrong, but personnaly, I dont blame you for witholding the certificate if she owes you money.

 

[bluesky]

it is really annoying that the clients refuse to pay, if the work is not finished can the electrician just leave the job there until get paid? saw a lot of this happening on construction site....

 

[uksel]

Hi guys I recently posted a message on here regarding a problem I have. Basically i fitted a new kitchen for them and new electrical circuits. RCD board and all. I noticed that the gas and water had no earth connection on them so told the lady and she didnt want me to do it as i would charge her because it wasnt part of my estimate. Also when i put in the new ringmain 2 sockets on the downstairs stopped working. The house needs a rewire as the wiring is in a right mess as are the old fuse boards and this problem would have been sorted out then. She was refusing to pay me for some other extra work that i did so i didnt give her a certificate until she sorted it out. She has now got in touch with the NICEIC who im registered with and they have sent me a letter about it. they want a response by 11th Feb. What do you people think about this?



Regards
Paul

Maybe you should have stuck to fitting kitchens mate instead of using your part P to do house rewires

throw the book at you I say

and plaster it all over the news so everyone gets the picture

 

[wattsup]

The perfect scenario why part p is flawed, you can still do dodgy work legally...if you pay the protection money

 

[andyb]

The perfect scenario why part p is flawed, you can still do dodgy work legally...if you pay the protection money

On the contrary, it shows why part p is needed.
Pre 2005 eagleeye would of done the job as he has, invoiced, got paid & then gone on to the next job.
Now with part p, the householder has been able to talk to the niceic, they have come down on eagleeye & he will have to make the installation safe. Also he can have his registration withdrawn making it illegal to do this type of work without notifying in advance. And finally there’s the issue of defined scope (which I think is wrong) if he is registered in their defined scope scheme then by fitting a consumer unit & running new circuits he has already laid himself open for prosecution. Let’s hope this is not the case, but with all its flaws, this case shows that part p is having an effect. It needs more enforcement and better awareness and the scrapping of the defined scope, but there is a need for it.

 

[Guest123]

Constructive criticisms to aid the OP are fine.......verbal attacks on his character are not!!!.

We all have strong feelings I'm sure, but this is a public forum that anyone can view.


Keep it civil.


Thanks.

 

[baldsparkies]

The perfect scenario why part p is flawed, you can still do dodgy work legally...if you pay the protection money

It's not part P thats flawed, Its the way governing bodies offer quick fix courses for a fast buck so that non electrical trades can register under the scheme. What would happen if chippies or painters or bricklayers could do a one day gas safe course for a couple of hundred quid. Lots of propertys blowing up is my guess.
No the bottom line is every man to his trade. If this chap had installed the kitchen and left the electrics to a time served registered electrician he would not have this problem.

Unfortunately the customer has not got a voice on this forum, and its the customers safety that needs to be considered not just ours. Whilst I fully apreciate the need for moderation, and keeping things civil as responsible professionals, there are going to be strong feelings on this subject and rightly so.

 

[garyinderby]

I think this is getting out of hand, i have just finished my "quick fix" "throw money at it" coarse, and have had to work hard to get my qualifications. ive got 30years of experiance in the construction industry, c&g Bricklaying advanced. a HND in building studies, and a BSc in construction management. which included building design, structual engineering, surveying, environmental design.

So please everyone stop disparaging other trades. how many sparkies out there can set out a house? or work out the sheer forces or bending moments in a wooden joist or steel beam. so please alittle respect please to all proper tradesmen.

 

[bugsy]

Don't get too upset gary but this is an electrical forum and you did ask for opinions,
I could'nt build a brick wall to save my life but then im not a brickie

 

[dufjax]

Don't get too upset gary but this is an electrical forum and you did ask for opinions,
I could'nt build a brick wall to save my life but then im not a brickie

It's real easy just buy one of those brikiemates - don't even need to bother with a course… Apparently!!!

 

[kduck]

Is it me, but I always check first before I quote for any job if there is 10mm to the gas and water, Even if the job is only to connect an oven up. This is the way I was told and if there is not any bonding and the customer does not want to pay, I tell them the risk and walk away!
People may have given you a hard time about this but think of the risk you have put the customer in.
If I was you I would go round there asap and put the bonding to the gas and water, the NICEIC will not be happy about this left in that state, even if she will not pay Its unsafe to leave it and you were the last person working on it. So what have you put on the EIC where it says bonding of extraneous conductive parts ie gas water???????

 

[baldsparkies]

I think this is getting out of hand, i have just finished my "quick fix" "throw money at it" coarse, and have had to work hard to get my qualifications. ive got 30years of experiance in the construction industry, c&g Bricklaying advanced. a HND in building studies, and a BSc in construction management. which included building design, structual engineering, surveying, environmental design.

So please everyone stop disparaging other trades. how many sparkies out there can set out a house? or work out the sheer forces or bending moments in a wooden joist or steel beam. so please alittle respect please to all proper tradesmen.

Here, Here, Respect to ALL PROPER TRADESMAN. As far as working out the sheer forces or bending moments in a wooden joist or steel beam, I wouldnt have a clue. I would leave that to someone like yourself and as a tradeseman, that would be a responsible and competant attitude.
As I have said earlier, Competants is not about knowing what you can do. Its about knowing what you CANT do. But there are those who will look it up on the internet, find a few answers and Bingo now I know as much as you, and it only took five minutes. Those are the guys we have to watch for,and thats where all tradesman have to be vigilant.
That said no one has the right to be disrespectful, we all had to start somewhere.

By the way Gary which 4x4 do you drive, L200, Nissan Navaro, or Toyota Hilux. Hee! Hee!

 

[bugsy]

There's anfull lot to be said about the old 5 year apprenticeship

 

[saveloy]

It's not part P thats flawed, Its the way governing bodies offer quick fix courses for a fast buck so that non electrical trades can register under the scheme. What would happen if chippies or painters or bricklayers could do a one day gas safe course for a couple of hundred quid. Lots of propertys blowing up is my guess.

I agree with that. The authorities have got it right with regards to gas. It's illegal for an unregistered person to work on gas end of. Thats how it should be on electrical. I actually wouldn't mind Part P if it was policed properly. But it isn't. No one is ever prosecuted for non notification so it's pointless spouting on about it being illegal to carry out work without Part P. The only law being contravened is a buliding regulation and LABC are supposed to police that and they couldn't give a ----. WTF some of them even take a PIR instead of an EIC, so even they ain't obeying THIER own law.

No the bottom line is every man to his trade. If this chap had installed the kitchen and left the electrics to a time served registered electrician he would not have this problem.

Sorry mate but the reason I went to college 5 years ago and studied electrical installation was because I was fed up with time served electricians mugging my customers and me off. The last one I used was getting a lot of work through me, yet I ended up doing most of his first fix for him. His work wasn't all that either. Until I went to college I didn't realise how many corners he cut - strands of 10mm cut to get cable in MET, cablles just run under kitchen cabinets, no certs issued, no part p registration.
He used to leave back boxes, cable, underfloor heating cable etc for me to install. One job I ran a 10mm cable for the shower from downstairs to the loft and all he did was connect up. Still charged the customer £250 though.
Another sparks I used put a Proteus(cost cutting again)board in for a customer. When I did the bathroom later on, he wired the shower. Last year I went round there as their shower wasn't working. He'd used a non Proteus MCB (no RCD) in the board, Except to get it to fit he'd put it up side down. So when looking at the board it appeared that all the MCBs were on! However the Shower one had accidentally been switched off, but to the customers it looked fine.No bonding either.
Sorry mate but there are good and bad electricians regardless of their background, and how they enterd the industry. If the apprentices who I attended college with (and are serving their time) are anything to go by, then standards are going to plummet in this industry not improve.

 

[bugsy]

So why did'nt you get certification for his work, if it was sub standard why did you pay him and if you were not happy why did.nt you use a registered contractor where by you had some recourse on bad workmanship

 

[dufjax]

So why did'nt you get certification for his work, if it was sub standard why did you pay him and if you were not happy why did.nt you use a registered contractor where by you had some recourse on bad workmanship

Hear, Hear

 

[5-Week-Wonder]

I bet 99% of contractors on here wouldn't check something like insulation resistance when estimating for a CU change. Would they pay for a rewire out of their own pockets if they later found that it wasn't compliant?

Ok, gas and water bonding are fairly easy to visually inspect (usually) but you're just providing an estimate. If you discover problems when you're doing the job there's no way that the customer should expect them to be fixed in the original price.

The circuit should never have been energised if the bonding was missing, so you probably need to go back an fit it at your own expense to aid your defence when you reply to the NIC. I do sympathise with your situation though.

 

[flukey]

this post made very good reading but from where i sit it is pretty clear who is in the wrong.

the op shouldnt be out of his depth as he is registered onto a competent persons scheme and has proved he knows what he is doing

he then priced a job, installed it and energised it with no bonding in place proving he doesnt know what he is doing and even argues the fact leaving the customer to contact his governing body

earthing and bonding is the first thing you should be checking before taking on ANY alterations or additions, so im sorry but i make the customer 100% right

 

[dufjax]

I bet 99% of contractors on here wouldn't check something like insulation resistance when estimating for a CU change. Would they pay for a rewire out of their own pockets if they later found that it wasn't compliant?

Ok, gas and water bonding are fairly easy to visually inspect (usually) but you're just providing an estimate. If you discover problems when you're doing the job there's no way that the customer should expect them to be fixed in the original price.

The circuit should never have been energised if the bonding was missing, so you probably need to go back an fit it at your own expense to aid your defence when you reply to the NIC. I do sympathise with your situation though.

We don’t check IR when estimating because it would mean pulling circuits & the consumer unit apart. Which as it’s only an estimate we haven’t (yet) been contracted or asked to do.

What happens if something goes wrong while testing? You might even find you PL won’t pay up.
My old policy stated something about they would only insure me if I was “getting paid” so wouldn’t cover the above.
We do however do a quick visual check for bonding.

The first thing we do is explain (in simple terms) that we are going to test the installation; we also explain the power will be off for most of the day… Believe you me some it doesn’t dawn on some customers!!
The next thing is testing (Continuity, IR etc) if some things not right we stop, talk to the customer and agree the way forward.
[FONT=&quot]We even have a nice little a4 folded leaflet that explains all this to the customer.



Cheers
Jim


PS oh and Welcome aboard 5 Day [/FONT]

 

[CHRIS66]

NIC guidelines are VERY clear on this matter.

No bonds and the customer should be informed in writing why the work CANNOT go ahead

 

[bugsy]

Visual inspection should take about 10mins if your not sure qualify it in the quote ( or estimate ) simple
no arguments afterwards

 

[saveloy]

So why did'nt you get certification for his work

Dunno you'd have to ask him that. Him not having a test meter may have had something to do with it.

if it was sub standard why did you pay him

I didn't know his work was sub-standard until I trained and learn't the proper way to do things. I didn't pay him, the customer did. I always let the customer deal direct with him. If I'd have known then I wouldn't have reccomended him.

and if you were not happy why did.nt you use a registered contractor where by you had some recourse on bad workmanship

Well again at the time if I'd have known I would have got rid of him. I took him at his word. His work seemed to up to scratch and without being an electrician it is hard to know what is acceptable and what is not, as you well know.

You seem to be blaming me for the fact that this bloke was cutting corners. Fact is it wasn't my responsibility to make sure he complied. It was his.