Question: Worrying incompetance or just minor niggles in the last minute rush??

[mjanesuk]

No thanks, always thought it smelt like sick.

A quick doodle of the setup with the three series and DC runs (though these are inside the loft, at least they got that right)!

Portrait on one MPPT, landscape on the other.

 

[VMan]

Just went into the loft to put back all of the insulation that the guys rolloed into a pile and forgot!!! to put back.

There appears to be enough 'spare' DC cable to do another install! Whish is probably the reason they had to go early the 1st day as the ran out of DC.

I have taken a couple of pics, not sure how much you can see. I was under the impression from other posts that the DC (if not all cabling) should be kept to a minimum (if not just for cost presumably).

Is this another item to add to my 'fix it please' list? I dont like the untidy look of it and the fact that I could probably trip over it when pottering about up there.

View attachment 9159View attachment 9160

Absolute mess, someone could easily mistake some of this cable for the satellite cable and cut into it, especially if they cant follow the cables! I would get this tidy'd up, and cant believe they didn't slide the cable up the felt its 6 inchs lower than the hole they made!!
I get the feeling these guys don't plan on being in the solar industry next year!

 

[mjanesuk]

I assume that the panel connections should not be poking out like this. Do you usually just cable tie them to the rails?

 

[sambotc]

wow that mid clamp is close to the end of the panel! That wiring is a mess aswell, they should be labelled and laying on the insulation isn't the best of ideas either!

 

[VMan]

I assume that the panel connections should not be poking out like this. Do you usually just cable tie them to the rails?

View attachment 9166

Also agree with sambotc, midclamp is very close to edge of panels.
Ye should be tied to rail, this is going to wear through within 25 years of rubbing against them gritty tiles!

 

[Earthstore]

Do you all think that it would be unfair to name and shame this company?
Would you also be kind enough to post some more photos, AC/DC isolators, Generation meter etc, So far what I have seen and read, this is how NOT to complete an install, still the good news is you have you have the high rate FIT tariff, but it does need sorting out.

 

[mjanesuk]

Ah, somthing else to worry about then. In that case here is one of the whole lot. Superficially (the guy netx door said) "looks good".

 

[mjanesuk]

Earthstore,

No DC isolator as SMA say the 4000 TL does not need one (has one internally). AC has one just to the right of the Sunny Boy on the loft, then cable follows siol vent boxing down to utility room. Pics below. The ceiling hole is not them! But note the lack of blank plates in the small CU (ours was full). But the good news was "they only cost 15p" - which is good to know when you forked out £10K.

I need to give them a chance before I name. Just have tired fingers from typing out my defects list. I do still have the final payment, and (as said above) a paid in full reciept.

 

[Worcester]

@mjanesuk

Definitely incompetence.

from all you've written, I wouldn't bother getting them back.

Keep the 3k and a get a good local installer to come and fix it.

At 3k we'll come from Worcester to fix it and do it properly for you!

The system need taking off the roof.

The top pair of rails are too close to the edges of the panels (top and bottom)

The bottom row generally shouldn't be fixed on the short edge the way round this is to cross rail it.

There should be at least two screws per fixings.

Noggings or adding to the width of the rafter - either should suffice.

The DC cable should be clipped at regular spacing, and needs trimming and fixing.

Depending on what the actual model of the panel is 1 string of 10 modules may be over voltage for the inverter, so would need to be two strings of 5, the landscape panels x 6 should go on the second mpp tracker.

Looks like either a schuco or a grey import 4000TL, it probably also hasn't been properly configured for the UK, so that will aslo need doing / checking, and if it's been generating for > 10 hours will need a bluetooth link and a GridGuard code to do it.

I condemned this installation that was fixed by the customers roofing contractor as it was a brand new roof and they didn't want us to screw to it - I refused to issue the MCS certificate until it was fixed to my satsifaction - we supplied the s/s tray for the roof and installed the cable, they bodged the fixing, note the number and spacing of cable ties that we put in ... if they'd let us do what we had propsed they'd actaully have had a better jobdoen in the first place and it would have cost them less - next time they'll let us do it!


We've just done the snagging list on over 200kWp for that client (which we installed in just 3 weeks )and the only thing he could come up with was that we could have trimmed some of our rails shorter ...

Also - don't let them take the scaffold down yet - deny the scaffolder access to your property until it is fixed.

Hope that helps.

Don't pay the balance ! Get someone else in that knows what they are doing.

 

[moggy1968]

dreadful bit of trunking work as well!!
strictly speaking the innner insulation of the cable shouldn't show. Thats more a reflection on the shabbiness of the trunking. how hard would it have been to get it to butt up against the meter!?

That DC cable run is the worst I have ever seen on any installation, and thats saying something. Don't they know there's a shortage of cable!!

It should be supported (i.e. clipped) along it's length. As it is it also presents a significant trip hazard.

I can't see the DC isolator but you aren't allowed to have cable suspended from the screw terminals so if they haven't used compression glands and/or clips thats another breach.

I would be interested to know where they put the warning labels for the DC cable, maybe they just wrote it on a bit of card and rested it on the insulation as well!! You are required to have DC warning labels along the cable length so it can't be confused with satelite cable etc

 

[Worcester]

Couple of other points having just read your latest post

1) According to the 2nd edition guide (3rd not yet ratified) there should be a second isolator lockable in the off position only by means of a padlock, near the aditional CU.
2) Have they earthed the array? - There should be an earth cable coimg from the rails to either an earth spike or the main earth depending upon your incoming supply type. (PME etc)

They are clearly incompetent and will just bodge the fixes to look right. - I know we're not perfect, your installation however would make a good case study for 'cowboy builders' or 'rogue traders'

 

[Earthstore]

I am sorry, but even though it has been difficult times, I would not let that installer back in the house. It really does not look safe!
Just pay somebody else to refit the whole job.

Are the panels different sizes? or does it just look that way in the photo?
The bottom row look like they are clamped on the short side too.

Also noticed that there is no lockable AC isolator by consumer unit.

The sad thing here is how many other installs have this company completed for customers, that may believe they have a quality install because, as its not their profession, do not know any different.

 

[VMan]

circuit not labelled either, circuit diagrams? schematic? installer details?

 

[moggy1968]

I would offer to do it but we're stacked until the new year I'm afraid. I would definately say don't get the original guys back. this isn't sloppy work, it's incompetence, and that won't change when they come back.

 

[SolarCity]

The photos of the loft installation are an absolute abortion. Absolutely jaw dropping. The lack of effort to get this right in the first place is hugely depressing.

I agree with what has been said above. The installation is clearly in such a state that I wouldn't let them anywhere near your house.

I worry for this firm's other customers and I would strongly urge a phone call to someone at MCS. Strictly speaking, you should be giving them a chance to put these things right but they are so far off the mark that I really don't think they should be given the opportunity. I'd urge you to take Worcester's offer up. You will be getting a good job, peace of mind, and you will not be paying any more than you should have in the first place.

 

[moggy1968]

I think a call to trading standards would also be in order

 

[mjanesuk]

Just to add, if you look closely at the labels they put on the main CU and the smaller PV CU, they have put the inverter sticker on the main CU!! and the DC isolator sticker on the PV CU.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions of locking the doors and keeping them out.

BUT
I have a concern with the FIT and MCS cert. 1. could they void the MCS cert if I dont pay the rest? The one thing B. Gas said needd not to change was the MCS cert number.. 2 the panels on the MCS cert are not the correct type, manufacturer or BABT (full house!), as they put down the ZNShine details (long story read early posts). H have tracked down the new details from the German co. who are rebadging them (they were certificated last Fri). Do I need this on the MCS Cert? Y/N Can only the previous installer do this? Y/N by going to MCS are they likely to say its all bobbins so I cant get the FIT as the install was not to MCS standards.

I have 3 scratched panels, one 50cm+ (on top of everything else) any ideas how to get these replaced then tell them to go away?

Ideas to resolve this? Concerns? Light at end of tunnel...?

 

[MorganPVI]

So long as your FiT form is accepted, you'll hopefully be able to work through the issues. TBH every single part of the install and paperwork is FUBAR. You should hold on to the reamining money and use it to get one of the nearer installers on this forum to sort it out for you - at least you'll know its been done right. Minor scratches on the panels are the least of your worries.

 

[moggy1968]

ask yourself, is someone from the feed in tariff team going to climb onto my roof and remove a panel to check it is correct?

 

[SolarCity]

I think your best course of action now would be to speak to the MCS with your concerns. The FITs deadline is an issue so you do need to be careful. If you explain this to the MCS then they should be able to offer a solution. If you don't want these panels to end up on your front lawn then I'd make the phone call now. Explain to them that you have urgent concerns which have been confirmed by other installers and that you have had an offer from another installer to put it right.

The correct solution from them, I would imagine, should be a swift site visit from the certifying body responsible for the installing company followed by them agreeing to arranging another installer to come in an sort it. However, I suspect that the response from the MCS may be a little less straightforward.

 

[moggy1968]

I reported a contractor to ELECSA a while ago for multiple breaches of 1771 and leaving an installation in a dangerous condition.
they weren't interested, at all. They said it is not their responsibility to police their members. which concerned me somewhat!!

 

[BruceB]

Be very careful and do not get emotional on this.
You have a number of objectives, which may contradict each other at times.
I suggest you want to:
- protect you entitlement to FIT at 43.3p
- protect your £3K retention - you may need it to sort out the problems
- protect your legal position as it may end up in the small claims court, by either you or them
- sort out your installation
not necessarily in that order.

I could write a small essay on each, but will just do a few points as you need to think through the detail yourself.

On the 43.3p. The MCS certificate is vital. You do not want the installer to mess it up before you have your contract with the FIT supplier. The installer can change the details at will and have it reissued. I suggest try to get them to put correct panel details on it and re-issue it to you. Send that to your supplier and keep a copy. You will also need to provide your supplier with proof of ownership. Have you already done so? Have they accepted it? If not you may need a receipted invoice.

On the £3K. Say what you need to but do not part with it until you are absolutely happy. It is your main leverage.

On the legal side. If you want to succeed in the small claims court you will (almost certainly) need to give the firm's complaints procedure a chance. So make some specific complaints and invite them to correct them. One of the requests should be that they pay for an independant engineer's inspection as there is so much wrong with it. If they will not, then do so yourself and deduct from retention monies. You may get someone here willing to inspect it for you.

On the sorting out, first give them a chance, it only has to be one chance. Get an independent report. And find someone reliable with a good reputation.

Regards
Bruce

 

[Scooby]

What a hellish situation, mjanesuk.

You do need to be a little careful, tho'. My understanding is that - by law - you need to give the original installer an opportunity (possibly as many as three...) to put things right. If you don't, you could leave yourself open to being sued by them to recover their losses - final payment, in this case. Mind you, I also understand that there are some cases where, if you can prove that the standard of the work was sooo bad - including being unsafe, for instance, then you could be justified in telling them to get lost and getting someone else to complete/fix the job. Should they then try and sue you, the judge will almost certainly come down in your favour. From what I've seen from your catalogue of errors, I think I know what the judge would say. It ain't writ in stone, tho', so perhaps it's worth getting some legal advice?


(IGNORE THIS POST - DO AS BRUCE^ SAYS!!!)

 

[moggy1968]

This claim (if taken as the whole value of the job) is almost certainly too large to be within the scope of the small claims court, which is unfortunate as you may have a case against them for more than the amount outstanding given the appaling standard of work. Under the terms of the sale of goods act, which applies to the supply of services as well as goods, the goods supplied must be of 'merchantable quality'. An installation with numerous breaches of the regulations clearly isn't.
The goods must also be 'as described' which again they clear aren't.
From your installers point of view the outstanding balance is within the limits but I don't know if the limits apply to the whole invoice amount or just the claim amount.
do you perhaps have legal aid on your house insurance, credit card or similar. I think you need proper advice on this

 

[BruceB]

Small claims court currently goes to £5K I believe, which ought to be able to cover the claim for any remedial work in this case. It is normally the size of the claim that matters not the overall value of the job in determining which track the claim procedes along in the county court.

But do not rush to legal action. Make simple clear requests for mistakes to be recified at this stage so you do not prejudice some of your other objectives.

 

[moggy1968]

yep, £5000 i believe

 

[solarsavings]

Perhaps you should consider speaking to these people How to complain about goods and services : Directgov - Government, citizens and rights

 

[pogson6]

I think this is a classic case of how NOT to do a job. I really hope you get it sorted out to your satisfaction.
Do give the company notification of all these problems as they may be as horrified as most of the installers reading this post!

Whether right or wrong a lot of companies sub contract installs under their name, so give them chance to at least respond to your concerns, before taking any knee jerk reaction!

 

[SolarCity]

Whether right or wrong a lot of companies sub contract installs under their name, so give them chance to at least respond to your concerns, before taking any knee jerk reaction!

I agree to a certain extent. However, this install is SO bad that I have a certain amount of anger for the clowns that employed them. In all honesty, from the roof down - roof hooks, panels, rails, inverters, cabling, stickers, trunking - is there anything that doesn't need redoing?

 

[Earthstore]

I wholeheartedly Agree with Biggs on this one, from what I can see, not one part of the installation is correct, my opinion would be, wait and see if your FIT has been accepted at 43.3p, maybe chase your supplier gently on this one, once that is confirmed contact MCS and explain your position, if your installer does not ask for the money (£3000), well you do have a receipt that says paid, use this money to pay to have it put right, maybe use someone from this site.
Forget the court approach, that is a long way off, as you are not in dispute yet.
Hope this helps
Earthstore Energy

 

[Worcester]

@mjanesuk

Bruce B's comments above are the right way to go about this - the most important one is the correct MCS certificate, all the rest can be fixed 'at your leisure' unless you get 160+mph winds...

Keep a 'diary' / log book and right down all your observatiosn and date them, along with photos, - print out this thread and save it for future reference. - Photo document everything.

BiggsSolar and BruceB are two highly competent and experienced installers and their advice is well worth heading.

Take it step by step
1) Protect your investment - get the correct certificate (before anything else...)
2) Retain the £3k - it is your strongest lever.
3) Report them to REAL and MCS.
4) Get a 'third party' / another installer to do a complete snagging list of ALL the faults, and specify why they are at fault.
5) Get a written proposal from the company as to how they plan to fix EVERYTHING to your satisfaction.
6) Get that agreed / approved by the third party above
7) If their proposals are not acceptable tell them what is (or get the third party to) and get agreement to do everything.
8) They are legally entitled to the monies you owe them wether they remenber or not ..
9) Point out that you are looking to recover the additional costs associated with putting it right from them (the report and supervision)
10) Get the third party to supervise all the remedial works, and pay the third party out of the retention.
11) If the above fails, tell them that you intend to get a thrid party in to fix it all and that you will look to recover those costs from them.
12) When all is finished properly pay them the outstanding balance (even if a third party does all the fixes) less costs, including your 'inconvenience'
13) Don't threaten court action untill all other avenues have failed.

Hope that helps..

 

[Worcester]

You need to tread very carefully with your Fit Provider as :

"Providing an MCS certificate number for an installation that has not been correctly installed or knowingly providing false information on an application is fraud."

In your case, I would simply point out that the panels type specified is an error, that in their rush to get all the installtions completed in time, they put the wrong one in (truth!) and do not mention the other issues.

 

[mjanesuk]

Wow, what a response. Thanks for all the help guys, really appreciated.

The good news from today is that I spoke to MCS and they then added the panels, manufacturer and BABT details to teh MCS database. A quick call to the girl in the office at the installers co. and I now have the MCS cert with all the correct details on it.

Re. the contract, B. Gas said on Friday that it would be 3 weeks before i get any respones and they had 9000 applications last week and were already 3 wks behind. So I need to decide whether to speak to MCS before or to leave it and concentrate on the snagging list with the view of someone who understands what they are doing.

A lot od the problem was the trades coming on different days and seemingly never worked with each other before (the roofer said this was typical of this group), but I run a business and you need to understand the job and who you need. I have been less than impressed by the MD, Sales Dir and the panels 'expert' . All have told porkies, or just not read/understood the details (which is worse?). The MD even got the 'single string of 10', highlighted above, wrong. I have to insist that it should be 2x5 even with the backing of SMA who said it might blow the inverter and would min. invalidate the warranty.

I have started to go through all your comments and list the faults and what I feel should be done to redress, but Worcester's approach of an expert assessment seems the more b/w approach to take.

I will start by calling them tomorrow (now I have the MCS - even if the corrupt it) and saying I have a 'few issues that I will write up and send to them, so suggest they leave the scaffold up (its been up since the 22nd Nov anyway: 2 cancellations the evening before).

I am still trying to get them to send the G83 OK, but I'm not hopefull that they applied in the 1st place.

Question: With the Sunny Boy, there is a deal on the free 20yr warranty (OK only small beer, but..) can I apply for this myself with the serial no, etc, or would it have to be the installer?

 

[mjanesuk]

Have they earthed the array? - There should be an earth cable coimg from the rails to either an earth spike or the main earth depending upon your incoming supply type. (PME etc)

Just noticed this one. I'd like to say yes, but NO.

 

[moggy1968]

To be honest I don't think the insuarance is worth it. SMA can refurbish inverters for about 50% of the new cost, so less than the cost of insurance. It's like buying an extended warranty on your washer, just not worth it. Just IMHO of course!

 

[mjanesuk]

Oh great. more 70mph winds coming acording to the news. Maybe I should rope them down or run gaffer tape round the house (no not THEIR solution - yet)

 

[SolarCity]

To be totally honest, the fact that the electrican and the roofers worked as individual entities is not the issue. The issue is that both of them are diabolically incompetent.

Neither them should be anywhere near a toolbox or someone else's home and the fact that they work under a sign of quality like the MCS angers me far more than any of the recent changes to the FITs.

 

[mjanesuk]

@mjanesuk

Looks like either a schuco or a grey import 4000TL, it probably also hasn't been properly configured for the UK, so that will aslo need doing / checking, and if it's been generating for > 10 hours will need a bluetooth link and a GridGuard code to do it.

how can I tell if it is a grey/schuco import?

Would a better pic help, or the serial no. Actually, I presume calling SMA is the easiest way to find out. They are based just up the road in Milton Keynes.

 

[moggy1968]

When it powers up it should say G83 on the readout. switch off the AC isolator, then switch back on and watch the display and see what it says (in daylight obviously). It should take about 3 minutes to power up.If it doesn't say G83 and you feel confident enough have a look in the manual to see how to change the country settings. SMA inverters can be reconfigured quite easilly for different countries.I am sure someone will let me know if this is tricky as the inverter has been on and off a few times. some inverters you have to do this at first fire up, some within the first ten. I honestly don't know on this one as we always do the settings when we commission the system.

 

[mjanesuk]

Thanks. I might give it a go at the weekend. Not much chance of being at home in daylight at the moment! Though I am pretty sure it lights up when you tap the box - and changes the display.

Will poke my head up tomorrow, and try not to trip over the cables!!

 

[Earthstore]

Can I advise you on this, please don't touch it.
You have no earth's, no AC isolator, no seperate DC isolator. For the tiny amount of money that you would lose at this time of year, just turn it off at the consumer unit that they fitted, check that it is off, enjoy your turkey, raise your glass on the 31st to all of us in limbo land and sort it out properly in 2012.
I am sure you can find a local PV company to pop round and have a look for you, not just an electrician, as most do not even understand PV.
Earthstore

 

[mjanesuk]

There is an AC isolator just to the right of the inverter. But I appreciate the message of just leave it alone till is been inspected.

 

[smag]

Going back a few steps...sorry. You will not be able to fix another fixing into a K2 bracket as they are staggered from each other without going off-centre and hence damaging the 37mm rafter. Using a single 3.5mm dia screw (therefore not encroaching on the 4 x dia. to edge distance) with 65mm embedment will give you a factor of safety in the region of 5 depending on location, altitude etc.

 

[moggy1968]

and there's the problem, you can't use such a small screw for solar brackets, minimum is 6mm which breaches building regs, thats why you need to batten the rafter.
if you align the bracket carefully you can still get 2 screws into the rafter. we've done loads with this size joist and our 'miss rate' hitting the rafters is probably less than 1%.
of course if it's a plain tile roof there is a K2 bracket with the holes in alignment. on a pantile the only option is staggered.

 

[smag]

...you can use a washer to overcome the issue of the screw being too small though

 

[moggy1968]

no you can't. the washer doesn't affect the diameter of the screw thread and accordingly it's tensile strength

 

[bhmt]

Hi. Just a bit of clarification - I have met this company in Munich at Solar Fairs and I have asked them where their products are made.
They told me that they have 25% manufacturing power in ZNShine factory in China + they keep Quality assurance people there. So that would explain SDG branding and ZNShine MCS. It is not some little company which is changing labels on the products but big holding selling PV all around Europe. Like you mentioned mjanesuk, probably it was one of their first deals in UK and due to all that rush their certification was delayed what forced them to use ZNShine cerificate.