Serial numbers on individual cables?

[DNS1]

Hi chaps,

Been working with a production company and we're prepping sound and AV kit for a big job in Germany. The client is very fussy about making sure all the kit is fully tested, so we've been going through and PAT testing everything so there can be no problem.

All the appliances have their serial numbers listed, but I've heard a rumour that some people will complain that the individual cables aren't numbered. They've all been tested and labeled individually on the certificate as "16A 5m - 1", 16A 5m - 2" etc but there's nothing on the physical cable to identify which one is which...

Anyone ever know someone to reject equipment over something as ridiculous as that?

 

[davesparks]

Your testing records and certificate are useless if you cannot identify the piece of equipment they relate to!

If an accident occurs and you have to prove that the cable at fault was tested then how would you go about that without it having an identification number?

 

[Flanders]

I would of thought the number on the label should be its identify mark. Number 1 on label links to number 1 on report

 

[davesparks]

I would of thought the number on the label should be its identify mark. Number 1 on label links to number 1 on report

But he's just said that they have been tested and labelled on the certificate, not on the cables themselves!

 

[DNS1]

For this purpose we're testing all kit for a specific job.

We'll provide say 10 20m 32A cables, and a certificate which lists 10 32A cables and the test results.

Still a problem you think?

Cheers

 

[davesparks]

Yes because you cannot say which test results relate to which cable!
Your test results are meaningless if you cannot identify which cable they belong to, you might as well just write 'we tested 10x20m 32A TRS and 10x10m 32A TRS and they passed'

 

[Rockingit]

Warehouse boys like drawing on things. It's not really a hardship, is it?!

 

[DNS1]

Yes because you cannot say which test results relate to which cable!
Your test results are meaningless if you cannot identify which cable they belong to, you might as well just write 'we tested 10x20m 32A TRS and 10x10m 32A TRS and they passed'

But if you've only got those cables on site, you're covered surely?!

Sounds like the warehouse boys have got a few months of fun ahead of them!

 

[Darkwood]

I identify any cables individually at both ends, they are industrial environments so very hardy labling is required - as others say if you can't identify when its time for the next test or if their is an accident or damage to the tested item then your cert's are not worth the paper they are printed on.

 

[davesparks]

But if you've only got those cables on site, you're covered surely?!

Sounds like the warehouse boys have got a few months of fun ahead of them!

But how can you prove that you only have those cables on site?

I assume this kit is going out on tour? If so then the chances of exactly the same cables being in the flightcases for the duration are pretty damned slim.
And if one of the cables does get swapped out for a faulty one and an accident occurs which leads to a persons death how will you prove to the judge and jury that the cable was not one of those you passed as safe?

It may sound far fetched, but that is the essence of what all this paperwork is really about. Who goes to prison when the smelly stuff hits the fan!

 

[amlu]

looking after your cables is very important in av/pa/studio/film industry. and how are they labeled is up to a sparky/warehouse manager in particular firm.
its not only about PAT on some electrical leads, there will be plenty of data, signal, multicore cables too and every one has to work as expected after being taken out of its box.

 

[davesparks]

I wouldn't have said many people think looking after the cables is important.

I have witnessed with my own eyes the darkest depths of a warehouse in London where the famous white tape with the word 'Tested' on it gets put round coils of cable.
It's slightly bizarre walking through a jungle of cables to get to the clear space in the middle where a man spends his days plugging cables in to a machine that would not look out of place on the tardis!

 

[Rockingit]

There's an interesting point here though Dave, how many cables that will start a tour end up finishing the tour without some element of R&R involved? And for every time someone gets the screwdriver and snips out, where's the PAT machine?!

 

[Besoeker]

Hi chaps,

Been working with a production company and we're prepping sound and AV kit for a big job in Germany. The client is very fussy about making sure all the kit is fully tested, so we've been going through and PAT testing everything so there can be no problem.

All the appliances have their serial numbers listed, but I've heard a rumour that some people will complain that the individual cables aren't numbered. They've all been tested and labeled individually on the certificate as "16A 5m - 1", 16A 5m - 2" etc but there's nothing on the physical cable to identify which one is which...

Anyone ever know someone to reject equipment over something as ridiculous as that?

I don't think it is ridiculous in the slightest.

 

[davesparks]

And how many of those cables that finished the tour started with the tour, and how many that started the tour are now on permanent unofficial loan?

And why is it that half the time the tools come out is immediately after removing the aforementioned white tape with blue writing?

 

[Guest111]

I,ve seen them labelled using those yellow cable collets with black numbers on,these are fitted onto a tywrap and attached to the cable,very hard wearing.

 

[davesparks]

Wouldn't last very long on tour though, they'll get ripped off in no time

 

[Besoeker]

Wouldn't last very long on tour though, they'll get ripped off in no time

Have you tried them?

 

[davesparks]

Nope, but I know the environment and how the cables will get treated.

 

[Besoeker]

Nope, but I know the environment and how the cables will get treated.

But, if you haven't tried them you have no basis for your assertion.

 

[davesparks]

Only the basis that I know the environment and the people who work in it.
A cable tie will get battered so that it will work its way along the cable a little bit. It'll catch in the hand of the person coiling it, they swear at it an cut it off.
Or it will catch on a fly rail as it gets hauled over it and get ripped off.
Or it'll snag on the edge of a flightcases as it gets pulled out.

The tried and reasonably reliable method is either printed tape around the cable or a label with clear heatshrink on the cable. Clear AT7 Dancefloor tape works well if heatshrink can't be used.

 

[Besoeker]

Only the basis that I know the environment and the people who work in it.
A cable tie will get battered so that it will work its way along the cable a little bit. It'll catch in the hand of the person coiling it, they swear at it an cut it off.
Or it will catch on a fly rail as it gets hauled over it and get ripped off.
Or it'll snag on the edge of a flightcases as it gets pulled out.

The tried and reasonably reliable method is either printed tape around the cable or a label with clear heatshrink on the cable. Clear AT7 Dancefloor tape works well if heatshrink can't be used.

Have you actually tried them?

 

[davesparks]

No I haven't specifically tried cable markers fixed with cable ties.
I have had DMX cables with those same cable markers directly fitted to the cables seen them gradually get ripped off or all the numbers scratched off within a few weeks.

I don't know what you are getting at here but you don't always have to try something to know it is a bad idea!

 

[Besoeker]

No I haven't specifically tried cable markers fixed with cable ties.
I have had DMX cables with those same cable markers directly fitted to the cables seen them gradually get ripped off or all the numbers scratched off within a few weeks.

I don't know what you are getting at here but you don't always have to try something to know it is a bad idea!

Perhaps you are not thinking of the same thing.

 

[davesparks]

Perhaps not, but anything which sticks up from the surface of the cable will not last, it's the nature of the industry in which these cables are being used.

Printed labels with clear heatshrink or a bit of Dancefloor tape over the top lasts best.

 

[Besoeker]

Perhaps not, but anything which sticks up from the surface of the cable will not last, it's the nature of the industry in which these cables are being used.

Printed labels with clear heatshrink or a bit of Dancefloor tape over the top lasts best.

Might depend on the durability of the materials used.

 

[davesparks]

It's not just the durability of the materials, it's anything which doesn't maintain a flush profile and could catch on a flyrail or flightcases lip or even someone's hand as they coil the cable.

Local crew and roadies are often brain dead monkeys, trust me on this as I work as local crew in a theatre the way you get treated by touring crews leads to a certain disrespect for their kit!

 

[Rockingit]

Besoeker: Just trust us on this one. Touring show electrics is unlike any form of the electrical industry. I should know, I've been touring for all manner of different styles and sizes of shows all over the planet for 25 years now!

ANYTHING which even remotely interferes with the 'smooth flow' of a cable will be removed within a few uses either accidentally or deliberately as being a pain in the arse. The people assembling and dis-assembling the system will in all probability not be that clued up about the finer points, won't (all) be traveling with the system but they know how to assemble a Meccano kit by following the plan and 'common practice'. What takes six hours to 'get in' will take an army of monkeys about half an hour to 'get out', depending on what time the nearest bar is closing and how much of a pain the truck driver is being over his tacho hours.

 

[davesparks]

It is a genuine miracle that the damned plugs and sockets stay attached to the cables sometimes.

 

[Besoeker]

It is a genuine miracle that the damned plugs and sockets stay attached to the cables sometimes.

So why wouldn't markers adjacent to the plugs?

 

[davesparks]

If a roadie catches his hand on the cable ties as he coils the cable he'll rip it off.
If it slips along the cable at all it will get snagged when the cable is pulled through a FOH duct or over a fly rail.
If it gets caught in the lid of a dip trap it will damage it, or when it gets dragged through a dip trap it'll get snagged.

We're not talking about cables which are being installed here, depending on the size of the show they could be going in and out of venues every day.

 

[DNS1]

Blimey, sorry to start a big row about this one...

Cheers to Rockingit and Davesparks who clearly know the industry and the way it works!

Discussed things with the guys I'm working for today and we've started numbering each cable to make sure there's no complaints. Apparently paint pen on the plug/socket is a good way... Can see this working well with those horrible 15A plugs and sockets with the rough surface, but reckon it will wear off pretty quickly on a nice new shiny 16A attachment... Only time will tell for this company!

 

[davesparks]

You are right it does wear off, but it should last a while and it does depend on the particular brand of the plugs n sockets.

As I said earlier a dump type label and a bit of clear AT7 Dancefloor tape (the stuff that is like 2" insulating tape) works well for existing cables.
Clear heatshrink is the best thing though and you should get in the habit of putting it on when you make up your cables.

We don't include serial numbers on any of out cables, but then they are almost exclusively for internal use or wet hire.
Every cable does get the company logo and a coloured band to identify length (and CSA sometimes) under clear heatshrink.