Shaver Point - RCD

[Spazz]

I have already looked in the regs, but cant find what Im looking for as I not sure if they apply to this:
Just been asked for a price for installing a mirror on a bathroom wall. There is a shaver point there now, so that will have to come away.

I know that if this new mirror has a shaver point on it then I can use the cable and circuit from the shaver point - and if its just a light I need to see the circuit the shaver point is on and make sure I use a 6A circuit.

What I am not sure about is if the property does not have a RCD do I have to insist with one being fitted. Of course I would be trying to get them to have an RCD fitted anyway.

 

[Octopus]

If all you are doing is changing 1 accessory for another then the RCD is not essential, however as its a bathroom it would be good practice, IMHO, to raise the issue with the client.

 

[Spazz]

Thanks Murdoch - I just wanted to check as I was not sure as it is changing an item for different item, it might have to go on the lighting circuit if it don't have a shaver point, but we will see.

I always try and get the customer to put an RCD in their house (everyone knows what I think of RCDs - they are life savers).

 

[Octopus]

Others may have conflicting views though!

 

[Rockingit]

Hmmm....off the top of my head, as the shaver point is an isolated supply I would think it's exempt from needing an RCD in a bathroom (though not the cable of course if you were installing it from scratch). As said, if it's effectively a like for like swap then all's good.

 

[Spazz]

If it is like for like I take its not notifiable even though its in the bathroom

If I have to extend off the lighting circuit (because it only has a light - no shaver point) am I right in saying this is notifiable as its an extension and must be RCD/RCBO protected as its an extension of an existing circuit?

 

[Octopus]

If it is like for like I take its not notifiable even though its in the bathroom

If I have to extend off the lighting circuit (because it only has a light - no shaver point) am I right in saying this is notifiable as its an extension and must be RCD/RCBO protected as its an extension of an existing circuit?

Yes....

 

[Darkwood]

i would be inclined to interupt the circuit and fit a high level rcd spur, if not you will need to check that the bathroom bonding is in compliance meets requirements for bathroom circuits not covered by a rcd, i would say what your doing is bordering on a grey area as its special location but your only really changing like for like (well similar).

 

[needasparks]

I'm with darkwood on this, bit close to the regs on this and would always push the rcd route for the sake of the extra cost. if bonding was in place might be different story as a minimum.

 

[Darkwood]

Heres the catch 22... if you fit a rcd spur you effectively have made an addition/alteration to the circuit and thus its notifiable but seriously i think you can relax the need to notify on this occasion

 

[Spazz]

To be honest - notifying jobs does not bother me!

it only costs £2.50 and I still got some free credits with NAPIT.
I always push for an RCD if not fitted, if an RCD is fitted then I offer a free RCD test - for the sake to 1 min of work its might bring in some extra work. I have checked 4 RCDs in last week and they all close to limits - still waiting for them to say replace them - 1 failed again still waiting for them to say ok - do the work.

 

[Guitarist]

I have already looked in the regs, but cant find what Im looking for as I not sure if they apply to this:
Just been asked for a price for installing a mirror on a bathroom wall. There is a shaver point there now, so that will have to come away.

I know that if this new mirror has a shaver point on it then I can use the cable and circuit from the shaver point - and if its just a light I need to see the circuit the shaver point is on and make sure I use a 6A circuit.

What I am not sure about is if the property does not have a RCD do I have to insist with one being fitted. Of course I would be trying to get them to have an RCD fitted anyway.

Not sure what you are saying here. Whether the mirror has a shaver socket or not, it will most likely need to be fed from a 3A FCU (regardless of whether it is from the lighting circuit or the RFC). Until you see the manufacturers instructions it's hard to know.

 

[Spazz]

I have seen some some shaver units on 2.5 T&E on the Socket ring circuit (32A) before.

Im hoping to go down to see it tomorrow and work out what circuit its on, have a look at the instructions, etc.

I was mainly checking does it have to be RCD or not as I was not sure as I didn't think a RCD would pick up any problems with (even water splashing on) the shaver socket.

 

[Guitarist]

As others have said, it's a grey area. You would not be changing the circuit characteristics by changing a shaver socket for an FCU, but you would be carrying out work in a special location and technically not changing "like-for like".

 

[Darkwood]

I see your thinking but you must also remember the the fitting/mirror has a 230v side and its this side that may pose the danger if IP rating breaks down, they change the lamp or they bang a nail in wall to hang a pic of grandma :Oo

 

[Spazz]

This is the problem I knew it was a gray area - hence asking the question - I wanted majority of advice on a simple like for like (kind of)
Anything more complicated is notifiable and RCDed!

Either way it will be done correctly and not thrown together!

 

[Spazz]

The bloke seems very reasonable - he got me in to PAT Test everything in his office last week (over 100 items) even though it was all done 7 months ago - not due for another 5 months.

If I said put an RCD I think he would with no questions - its his girlfriends house so he would not want anything to happen to her.

 

[Strima]

its his girlfriends house so he would not want anything to happen to her.

Until they get married and it all changes... :lol:

 

[telectrix]

its his girlfriends house so he would not want anything to happen to her.

but his wife might>>>>>>LOL.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Whilst a 'like for like' replacement doesn't require notification, even if it is in a 'special location'.
I think replacing a shaver point with one that incorporates a lighted mirror is stretching the 'like for like' definition.
As for the requirement for RCD protection:
If you were making the replacement for maintenance, then yes you could in my opinion omit RCD protection.
However, as this is cosmetic rather than maintenance, it would in my opinion be an alteration.
As such the work would have to comply with the current Regulations, to wit the circuit would require RCD protection.
Also, if the shaver socket does not comply with BS EN 61558-2-5, then the socket would have to be 3m from the boundary of zone 1.

 

[Spazz]

I was updated by the customer today with regards to this

Situation:
Brand New 17th Ed CU only 2 months ago when a new kitchen was installed
RCD protection on all circuits
Shaver socket is on the lighting circuit
He has recently bought the mirror for his girlfriend but hes not 100% comfortable with installing it himself

I will ensure that it complies with regs and BSEN61558-2-5, and if it doesn't then I will take it from there.

I might just notify it just for the sake of it just in-case as it is really on the limit of like for like - and declare it as an alteration just to cover my back - at worst whats going to happen if I declare something that is not notifiable - nothing!

 

[Darkwood]

Tin hat on here.... your competent and know what your doing, notifying is really for the handymen brigade with respect to this job, personally i wouldn't bother, i did 20yrs before notifying came into play and i ignore it now cos in a court of law i got my solid experience and history behind me, il prove any council that im competent if needs be and at the end of the day im keeping the money in my pocket.

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Not really pertinent to your question, but seem to remember that shaver points don't draw 30mA....is that right? Isn't it under that? So the RCD would be protecting that cable only, not appliances.

 

[Darkwood]

Not really pertinent to your question, but seem to remember that shaver points don't draw 30mA....is that right? Isn't it under that? So the RCD would be protecting that cable only, not appliances.

Not too sure where you get that from but not saying its wrong.... but either way the shaver point is an isolating transformer so no Potential Difference to earth on secondary side so rcd will be blind to anything plugged into shaver point, although OP is saying its going to be a mirror as well which could have antimist heater and/or lighting and these will be monitored by the rcd if connected to the supply side.

 

[UNG]

A shaver point contains an isolating transformer if it is manufactured BSEN61558-2-5 any item plugged into the shaver outlet that develops a fault or is dropped in the sink of water will not trip an RCD because it is isolated from the supply protection on the secondary side is normally provided by a BS646 fuse by adding an RCD you are only protecting the supply cable

You will need to check what you are installing as I have found some of these combined mirror shaver units have auto transformers installed in them making them non compliant with the BS and not suitable for installation in bathrooms

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Not too sure where you get that from but not saying its wrong.... but either way the shaver point is an isolating transformer so no Potential Difference to earth on secondary side so rcd will be blind to anything plugged into shaver point, although OP is saying its going to be a mirror as well which could have antimist heater and/or lighting and these will be monitored by the rcd if connected to the supply side.

yes, of course, that as well. sorry was just waking up. No excuse.

 

[Guitarist]

I think this is getting far too complex. The bathroom is completely RCD protected, he is not altering a circuit, and we have to assume that the mirror/shaver unit is designed for a bathroom and outside zones.
Connect it to an FCU and move on