Solution to a C2 - No CPC on lighting circuit

[HappyHippyDad]

Welcome to ElectriciansForums.net - The American Electrical Advice Forum
Head straight to the main forums to chat by click here:   American Electrical Advice Forum

I've tried to research and form a plan without asking on here, but I'm just going around in circles.

Just completed an EICR. The wiring ranges from new metric colours to old imperial cable.

There are 2 lighting circuits, both containing class 1 fittings. Most of the fittings have a CPC, but there is no continuity to the MET in the consumer unit.

The CU is extremely cluttered and I simply can't be sure if there is actually a CPC leaving the CU with the lighting circuits. I cannot gain access to the beginning of the conductors where they leave the sheath. One of the lighting circuits has imperial cable in the circuit breaker, the other has metric (tinned copper). Meaning the cable is 51+ years old assuming no imperial was used after 1972 and tinned copper being replaced by untinned from 1967-1970

I realise this is clearly a C2, but is the only solution to rewire?

If the wiring system is pre 1966 and no CPC was required, I don't believe there is any requirement in BS7671 to automatically have it upgraded to current wiring standards. Of course there are now class1 fittings. Will removing these class 1 fittings then bring the code to a C3? Again, there are CPC's to most lights, my worry would be that a DIYer would simply put up a class1 light again, even with a danger note on the CU.

I really can't see this being an option, but I just wanted to be sure before I tell the customer they need a partial rewire.

Cheers all.

 

[westward10]

If they have installed class I fittings I would not be making alterations by replacing them don't become part of the situation, don't forget class II cannot be used as a means of protection in a dwelling. My opinion is a rewire being the solution.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

What was the EICR for @HappyHippyDad ?

 

[HappyHippyDad]

If they have installed class I fittings I would not be making alterations by replacing them don't become part of the situation, don't forget class II cannot be used as a means of protection in a dwelling. My opinion is a rewire being the solution.

I thought you would say that Westward. The only only slight change to my last very similar thread, a year or 2 ago, was the possibility that a CPC may not have initially been installed on the circuit. Thanks for your opinion.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

What was the EICR for @HappyHippyDad ?

I'm not really sure of the exact details, but the customer is selling. They are purchasing another house but there is some kind of middle man (company) involved which is facilitating the sale. This company insists upon a satisfactory EICR to be accompanied with the sale.

 

[davesparks]

I realise this is clearly a C2, but is the only solution to rewire?

Pretty much yes, there is the option of installing a CPC to every point but that's as much work as rewiring so might as well rewire.

If the wiring system is pre 1966 and no CPC was required, I don't believe there is any requirement in BS7671 to automatically have it upgraded to current wiring standards.

The date it was installed doesn't matter, you are carrying out the EICR to the current regulations. It is potentially dangerous so you report it as such.

Will removing these class 1 fittings then bring the code to a C3?

In theory yes, but unless you can absoloutely guarantee that your customer won't just put them back up again then you're just creating a false sense of safety.

You would also struggle to justify this as remedial action after an EICR as you would still have a circuit with no CPC.

Again, there are CPC's to most lights, my worry would be that a DIYer would simply put up a class1 light again, even with a danger note on the CU.

I completely agree, people ignore notices and signs. I was in the supermarket the other day when the fire alarm went off and everyone just carried on shopping as if nothing was happening.


In your situation you have an additional issue on top of the no CPC, you have bare unearthed conductors in the cable.
On Tuesday I was doing EICR remedials for a customer, one of which was to sort out a 3 core+earth FP type cable (so the same basic construction as t&e) where the black core had been used for a CPC and the bare earth core left coiled up in the DB.
I checked for any voltage on the bare earth and there wasn't any and you couldn't feel anything when you touched it but every time it made contact with the metal DB there were small visible sparks. I put this down to ghost voltage and carried on but it is worth thinking about.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I'm not really sure of the exact details, but the customer is selling. They are purchasing another house but there is some kind of middle man (company) involved which is facilitating the sale. This company insists upon a satisfactory EICR to be accompanied with the sale.

Perhaps they are part-exchanging their old house for a new build? A friend who did this also had to provide a satisfactory EICR.

In this instance, I'm inclined to agree with @westward10 and @davesparks . With the CPCs being present at fittings, it's likely plastic or class II's will be replaced with class I's.

 

[Aaron b]

I just had a look through the best practice guides, 1 and 5. They both seem to say it's a c3 if class ii but warn caveat it with the likelihood of being changed to class 1. Similarly, code breakers have class ii without CPC as a C3.

I think a C2 is fair and upgrading it is long overdue.

 

[davesparks]

I just had a look through the best practice guides, 1 and 5. They both seem to say it's a c3 if class ii but warn caveat it with the likelihood of being changed to class 1. Similarly, code breakers have class ii without CPC as a C3.

I think a C2 is fair and upgrading it is long overdue.

But this isn't a circuit with CPC, this is a circuit which has a CPC with no continuity to the MET.

 

[davesparks]

I'm not really sure of the exact details, but the customer is selling. They are purchasing another house but there is some kind of middle man (company) involved which is facilitating the sale. This company insists upon a satisfactory EICR to be accompanied with the sale.

Ignore any pressure or sob stories of needing a satisfactory EICR for whatever reason. Report on the installation exactly as it is at the time of the inspection, don't go opening yourself up to any liability.

Leave planning the remedial action until after the EICR is completed otherwise you risk that influencing your decisions on the EICR.
Approach with the mindset that the remedials will be carried out by another contractor,