Test and inspection of industrial premise

[gazroberts]

Hi, I am new to this forum and wanting some advise on coding for a inspection and test on a industrial installation. I am a C&G qualified electrician with 17th and 2391 qualification. it is quite old installation around 1950's to date and hasn't been inspected before it has a mixture of lead sheath, v.i.r's conduits and s.w.a's. One questions is how many sub mains is acceptable, ie I have the 1600A main switch in the sub with a 200A switch feeding a 200A board, feeding a 100A board, feeding a 32A board feeding a 15Amp board (of which gas rings mains off it (with 30A fuse wire in a 15A fuse). is this breaking any regulation? I would only normal run 1 sub main from the original board. Should each submain have its own isolator / main switch, these are the Bill or MEM type 3036 rewirables that don't have built in main switches, if so what code. What code would you give a horizontal run of conduit with insufficient supports i.e every 3m between purlins. this also has extra weight of light fittings on it and is physically bowing. I have S.W.A's with unrecognised installation method for example zip tied to pipes or conduits or anything else for that mater, that's if they are tied to anything. what would I record if a circuit has two types of wiring for example a 3 phase circuit consisting of 4 single M.I.C.C's joined to a Lead sheath cable of different conductor sizes, or a 4core 4mm S.W.A joined to a singles 2.5mm conduit system. to be honest a lot of it needs ripping out just trying to back up my argument. Any help much appreciated. Gaz

 

[gazroberts]

To be honest most of the faults im finding are due to poor workmanship, and bad practice.

 

[Guest55]

i'd get assistance from someone with additional inspecting experience to be honest.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Not fully sure what the issue is that you are describing but if you are doing industrial, you will get used to seeing cascading of boards often ending up with a small SP board. Yes discrimination can get lost on the way as you have found. C3 unless you can find some danger that may exist from the wrong board tripping.
As for containment and erection - depends whether it looks like its ready to fall down or not could be C1, C2 or C3. Just use your judgement, i.e. C1 danger immediately apparent, C2 dangerous under fault conditions, C3 improvement recommended.

 

[gazroberts]

So "cascading" of boards is Ok then (I have seen this done loads of times but that doesn't always make it ok, I have seen lots of thing done loads of time), should each board have its own isolator next to the board (so that it can be isolated locally) or is it acceptable to put a "isolate elsewhere" label on it. im just thinking a modern board would have its own main switch. As for two different types of wiring for example a 10mm pyro joined to a 10mm s.w.a (with different current carrying capacities) or a 4mm s.w.a joint to 2.5mm conduit without fusing down. (even if the fuse had been selected for the smallest cable) what code would you give that?

 

[gazroberts]

i'd get assistance from someone with additional inspecting experience to be honest.

T
Thats why I have come on here for advice. I am a competent electrician of 15 years. im just getting advice to make sure that im not being pedantic about a few things, its just I like things to be right if im putting my name to it. but thanks for the response anyway. :hurray:

 

[MDJ]

. I am a C&G qualified electrician with 17th and 2391 qualification.

Out of interest what actual Electricians qualifications have you got? Not being sarcastic at all honestly, just wondering??

 

[IQ Electrical]

So "cascading" of boards is Ok then (I have seen this done loads of times but that doesn't always make it ok, I have seen lots of thing done loads of time), should each board have its own isolator next to the board (so that it can be isolated locally) or is it acceptable to put a "isolate elsewhere" label on it. im just thinking a modern board would have its own main switch. As for two different types of wiring for example a 10mm pyro joined to a 10mm s.w.a (with different current carrying capacities) or a 4mm s.w.a joint to 2.5mm conduit without fusing down. (even if the fuse had been selected for the smallest cable) what code would you give that?

From the questions you are asking, it doesn't sound like you have any industrial experience-do you know anyone with industrial experience that can help you?

It's often the case on larger installations where the 'leg' from the DB will be a higher CSA before gradually reducing to allow for volt drop etc. as long as the protective device is rated to suit the lowest CSA then there is no code (why would there be?)

GN3:-

1.2 Required competence
The inspector carrying out the inspection and testing of any electrical
installation must, as appropriate to his or her function, have a sound
knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being
inspected and tested, and BS 7671 and other relevant technical standards.
The inspector must also be fully versed in the inspection and testing
procedures and employ suitable testing equipment during the inspection
and testing process.

Not 'having a go' but you are being paid for your expertise and experience.

 

[Guest55]

Out of interest what actual Electricians qualifications have you got? Not being sarcastic at all honestly, just wondering??

qualifications dont mean squat on an industrial inspection to be honest , no ticket will give you the necessary experience to undertake this kind of work.

 

[MDJ]

qualifications dont mean squat on an industrial inspection to be honest , no ticket will give you the necessary experience to undertake this kind of work.

Rollocks, you need to understand electrical installations to carry out this work Troll :sleep1:anyway that question was nothing to do with the answer you gave, just wondered thats all.

 

[Brightspark2]

As for two different types of wiring for example a 10mm pyro joined to a 10mm s.w.a (with different current carrying capacities) or a 4mm s.w.a joint to 2.5mm conduit without fusing down. (even if the fuse had been selected for the smallest cable) what code would you give that?

None. You can use more than one cable type in a circuit. CCC too as long as the OPD is correct for the smallest type.

Most of the other things are just bad practice but nothing actually wrong, like cable tieing SWA. It's just clipped direct basically if along another cable on a wall etc.

 

[gazroberts]

Out of interest what actual Electricians qualifications have you got? Not being sarcastic at all honestly, just wondering??

C&G 1, 2 and C certificate and ONC in electrical engineering, 16th edition and 17th update, test and inspection 2391, pat testing, Compex Ex1 - 4 and a 50 meter swimming badge. I have only ever done industrial.

 

[MDJ]

C&G 1, 2 and C certificate and ONC in electrical engineering, 16th edition and 17th update, test and inspection 2391, pat testing, Compex Ex1 - 4 and a 50 meter swimming badge. I have only ever done industrial.

Fair play, I was wondering as you were doing a HNC, interested in this myself, Thanks M8, how do you find the course?

 

[gazroberts]

None. You can use more than one cable type in a circuit. CCC too as long as the OPD is correct for the smallest type.

Most of the other things are just bad practice but nothing actually wrong, like cable tieing SWA. It's just clipped direct basically if along another cable on a wall etc.

Thanks this was the answer I was looking for

 

[MDJ]

C&G 1, 2 and C certificate and ONC in electrical engineering, 16th edition and 17th update, test and inspection 2391, pat testing, Compex Ex1 - 4 and a 50 meter swimming badge. I have only ever done industrial.

By the way I have my 1 mile swimming badge and am probably fatter than you :hurray:

 

[gazroberts]

From the questions you are asking, it doesn't sound like you have any industrial experience-do you know anyone with industrial experience that can help you?

It's often the case on larger installations where the 'leg' from the DB will be a higher CSA before gradually reducing to allow for volt drop etc. as long as the protective device is rated to suit the lowest CSA then there is no code (why would there be?)

GN3:-

1.2 Required competence
The inspector carrying out the inspection and testing of any electrical
installation must, as appropriate to his or her function, have a sound
knowledge and experience relevant to the nature of the installation being
inspected and tested, and BS 7671 and other relevant technical standards.
The inspector must also be fully versed in the inspection and testing
procedures and employ suitable testing equipment during the inspection
and testing process.

Not 'having a go' but you are being paid for your expertise and experience.

I have only every done indusrial, from pat testing to panel building, plc programming or installation never house bashed. just been asked to a inspection on one of the 5 factories I look after and I wanted to make sure I am not being too harsh on some of the faults i am finding. most of them are codes 1, or 2's for example 30Amp fuse wire in a 15 amp carrier or 2 X 100A fuse wires in a 100Amp carrier or borrowed neutrals, box lids / trunking lids missing, just wanted to clear up one or 2 things.

 

[gazroberts]

never did the HNC just ONC. I would like to the HNC myself

 

[IQ Electrical]

I have only every done indusrial, from pat testing to panel building, plc programming or installation never house bashed. just been asked to a inspection on one of the 5 factories I look after and I wanted to make sure I am not being too harsh on some of the faults i am finding. most of them are codes 1, or 2's for example 30Amp fuse wire in a 15 amp carrier or 2 X 100A fuse wires in a 100Amp carrier or borrowed neutrals, box lids / trunking lids missing, just wanted to clear up one or 2 things.

Remember a code 1 is an immediate danger (think exposed live parts etc.)

 

[gazroberts]

C&G 1, 2 and C certificate and ONC in electrical engineering, 16th edition and 17th update, test and inspection 2391, pat testing, Compex Ex1 - 4 and a 50 meter swimming badge. I have only ever done industrial.

oh and HV switching

 

[gazroberts]

Remember a code 1 is an immediate danger (think exposed live parts etc.)

Like i said box lids missing

 

[johnboy6083]

A box lid missing would more than likely be a code 2 or 3. It's not a 1 as you could shove your fingers in there, and you would be in no particular danger. By having no box lid on, there is an increased danger that the installation could be damaged, and become a code 1.

 

[gazroberts]

A box lid missing would more than likely be a code 2 or 3. It's not a 1 as you could shove your fingers in there, and you would be in no particular danger. By having no box lid on, there is an increased danger that the installation could be damaged, and become a code 1.

you definitely would be in danger as they are at waist height with 400V in choc blocks and no lid.

 

[johnboy6083]

Is that dangerous, or do choc blocks meet the definition of ip2x? I don't think the British standard test finger would light up.
this is my opinion, but I'd probably give it a code 2, rather than 1. I would replace the lid whilst I was on site too.

 

[gazroberts]

old imperial conduit and the screws are BA so gonna pick some up tomorrow, that has to be a code 1

 

[Deleted member 72666]

Just out of interest, how are you managing to do all this with all that asbestos lying around in the dist. boards?

 

[Deleted member 72666]

old imperial conduit and the screws are BA so gonna pick some up tomorrow, that has to be a code 1

Failing that you could always run a M5 tap down them and use metric screws(M5).

 

[gazroberts]

Just out of interest, how are you managing to do all this with all that asbestos lying around in the dist. boards?

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a33.pdf or hold your breath when you pull them out

 

[Deleted member 72666]

www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/guidance/a33.pdf or hold your breath when you pull them out

Well in that case you'll be 'cutting out' all the affected boards and replacing with new and that will involve a complete rewire to current BS7671! Somehow I don't think it'll happen as it's such a major change. Just be careful and take a look at the bigger picture because doing what you are doing not only puts you in danger but others too from the 'disturbed' asbestos.

 

[gazroberts]

Well in that case you'll be 'cutting out' all the affected boards and replacing with new and that will involve a complete rewire to current BS7671! Somehow I don't think it'll happen as it's such a major change. Just be careful and take a look at the bigger picture because doing what you are doing not only puts you in danger but others too from the 'disturbed' asbestos.

im not saying that i am doing like this, i thought you wanted some info for your self. how would you go about the asbestos issue, refuse to test or dust mask/paper suite and dispose of the correctly? 3 of factories i work at are old and have all these type fuses so i deal with them on a daily weekly basis and 2 are new (10 year old factories so all mcbs. My boss who is the maintenance manager is trying to push for a complete rewire, which is what i want as well as its me that works on / maintains them. This is why i asked some of the question i have asked, the asbestos issue could help our case even more. the company are doing quite well at the moment and seem to be spending a bit of money, so now is a good time to bring it up with higher management.

 

[Deleted member 72666]

im not saying that i am doing like this, i thought you wanted some info for your self. how would you go about the asbestos issue, refuse to test or dust mask/paper suite and dispose of the correctly? 3 of factories i work at are old and have all these type fuses so i deal with them on a daily weekly basis and 2 are new (10 year old factories so all mcbs. My boss who is the maintenance manager is trying to push for a complete rewire, which is what i want as well as its me that works on / maintains them. This is why i asked some of the question i have asked, the asbestos issue could help our case even more. the company are doing quite well at the moment and seem to be spending a bit of money, so now is a good time to bring it up with higher management.

Sorry! It does read back like I'm telling you what to do when in fact I was trying to bring the subject to the fore as I face the exact same problems. I am also an electrical engineer who is responsible for the electrical maintenance of production machinery and fixed wiring. We too have a few of these old boards on site and although like you have been on an Asbestos awareness course I'm still a little confused as what to do when it comes to testing and indeed what to do when a fuse blows due to say overload conditions, do we just repair the fuse (kitted out in the correct disposables and masks...which is the method I currently use) or do we replace the dist. board which will require every cct. on that board to comply with the current version of BS7671? I know the correct thing to do would be to go down the refurb route but it would be very impractical to do so.
I will have to inspect and test these eventually but have been saving them until last but I've managed to keep the insurance peeps happy for the time being by having a thermo graphics survey done, but just like in your case I think these old installations will fall at the IR tests.

- - - Updated - - -

im not saying that i am doing like this, i thought you wanted some info for your self. how would you go about the asbestos issue, refuse to test or dust mask/paper suite and dispose of the correctly? 3 of factories i work at are old and have all these type fuses so i deal with them on a daily weekly basis and 2 are new (10 year old factories so all mcbs. My boss who is the maintenance manager is trying to push for a complete rewire, which is what i want as well as its me that works on / maintains them. This is why i asked some of the question i have asked, the asbestos issue could help our case even more. the company are doing quite well at the moment and seem to be spending a bit of money, so now is a good time to bring it up with higher management.

Sorry! It does read back like I'm telling you what to do when in fact I was trying to bring the subject to the fore as I face the exact same problems. I am also an electrical engineer who is responsible for the electrical maintenance of production machinery and fixed wiring. We too have a few of these old boards on site and although like you have been on an Asbestos awareness course I'm still a little confused as what to do when it comes to testing and indeed what to do when a fuse blows due to say overload conditions, do we just repair the fuse (kitted out in the correct disposables and masks...which is the method I currently use) or do we replace the dist. board which will require every cct. on that board to comply with the current version of BS7671? I know the correct thing to do would be to go down the refurb route but it would be very impractical to do so.
I will have to inspect and test these eventually but have been saving them until last but I've managed to keep the insurance peeps happy for the time being by having a thermo graphics survey done, but just like in your case I think these old installations will fall at the IR tests.

 

[Rockstar94]

I currently work for a very large national company that are very good at H&S awareness and training, before you started work you should of completed your RAMS and part of that would be getting an asbestos register from the client. Get a specialist to remove. Not just dust mask and disposable overall job... I know the H&S stuff is alot of scare tactics but don't take it lightly. I've worked for companies without any asbestos awareness and training and now severely concerned not for myself but my family and kids to come. If I go its no loss to me, but how bout the kids?

 

[ian.settle1]

C&G 1, 2 and C certificate and ONC in electrical engineering, 16th edition and 17th update, test and inspection 2391, pat testing, Compex Ex1 - 4 and a 50 meter swimming badge. I have only ever done industrial.

You should be OK for working on ships with this qualification then

 

[gazroberts]

I currently work for a very large national company that are very good at H&S awareness and training, before you started work you should of completed your RAMS and part of that would be getting an asbestos register from the client. Get a specialist to remove. Not just dust mask and disposable overall job... I know the H&S stuff is alot of scare tactics but don't take it lightly. I've worked for companies without any asbestos awareness and training and now severely concerned not for myself but my family and kids to come. If I go its no loss to me, but how bout the kids?

we have got an asbestos register but its a non invasive one, so dosnt include fuse boards ect, i have done the asbestos awarness course but i thinks that the companies get out clause if anything happens in years to come, the advise given on the course is to damp it down to stop the dust / fibers i dont think it would be a good idea start spraying water in 30 way Bill board LOL, i have been pulling these fuses for years without any mask or anything so have i allready done the damage? long term i think it would be a good idea to get rid of them, as we are with other asbestos in the factory.

 

[Engineer54]

Just out of interest, how are you managing to do all this with all that asbestos lying around in the dist. boards?

Here we go again!! The death bell rings to anyone who dares pull a re-wirable fuse!!! :sleep1:

 

[IQ Electrical]

Here we go again!! The death bell rings to anyone who dares pull a re-wirable fuse!!! :sleep1:

Ha, it does always sound like that but it's a fair point to raise if there are masses of remedials to do and maybe BS3036 boards to be replaced (before the death bell rings).