USA politics, recent events.

[electric al]

Depends whose " truth and reality" we are buying into

 

[FatAlan]

Damo's first law of conspiracy theories;-

"The closer you are to the truth the greater the proportion of what you read is bollux"

Pretty much all conspiracy theories have a kernel of truth then two things happen. One, deliberately misinformation is sewn and two, the internet goes into meltdown about it.

Too true. I've worked on some very high profile investigations in the past. Often there were headlines based on "leaked info' to the national press. This was however, quite reassuring because it confirmed that there were no leaks as the headlines were, as you say ....bollux ?

 

[FatAlan]

Its no the noncing, as you point out, there are many more white nonces but these tend to be solo nonces operating from positions of familiarity on an opportunity.

The issue with Asian gangs is that there is a racist element, one that the establishment does not want to recognise let alone tackle. White girls are seen as trash and acceptable targets by far too many in these communities while their own young women are locked up and married off to uncles in some Stan somewhere.

Local councils and law enforcement don't want to look too closely at the Asian night time economy for fear of being labeled racist themselves but there are thousands of horny young Asian men predating on drunk or vulnerable young women.

Where is the evidence of that?

Police investigate the allegation infront of them and as I've said, a few years back, if the victims weren't cooperating or engaging the investigations were not pushed forward. There may well have been a racist element to those particular gangs and their young white girl targets were probably more accessible. Who's not to say that there isn't a similar level insular abuse within those communities as well.

Are muslim gangs more prevalent than Eastern European, African, Asian, British, Irish gangs that exploit young women. Surely those involved in criminality within communities reflect the communities they are in?

'Local councils and law enforcement don't want to look too closely at the Asian night time economy for fear of being labeled racist themselves but there are thousands of horny young Asian men predating on drunk or vulnerable young women.' ....Divisive right wing bollox ... are you saying young Asian men are more horny than white guys.. although that probably is true for Tommy Robinson supporters! ?

 

[GBDamo]

Where is the evidence of that?

Police investigate the allegation infront of them and as I've said, a few years back, if the victims weren't cooperating or engaging the investigations were not pushed forward. There may well have been a racist element to those particular gangs and their young white girl targets were probably more accessible. Who's not to say that there isn't a similar level insular abuse within those communities as well.

Are muslim gangs more prevalent than Eastern European, African, Asian, British, Irish gangs that exploit young women. Surely those involved in criminality within communities reflect the communities they are in?

'Local councils and law enforcement don't want to look too closely at the Asian night time economy for fear of being labeled racist themselves but there are thousands of horny young Asian men predating on drunk or vulnerable young women.' ....Divisive right wing bollox ... are you saying young Asian men are more horny than white guys.. although that probably is true for Tommy Robinson supporters! ?

No, not at all, just we live in a highly sexualised world, temptation is everywhere, and western women have the freedom to engage in sex before marriage and with whom they like, meaning white men have access.

When you have a highly religious and exclusive community that see their females as pure and chaste and not to be touched until married, then married off outside the immediate community, you have a lot of horny males with no access.

As many of these work in the night-time economy then there are opportunities but with women they see as ------.

Its not healthy and not surprising so many cross the line between immoral and illegal, and that the community keeps quiet.

 

[nicebutdim]

All true but to be honest I genuinely now think that ignorance IS bliss.

If you haven't looked for this stuff don't but also accept that you are ignorant.

Best to keep out of these topics, I don't know what good they do.

I've been exceptionally careful with the wording of some posts.

There are occasions when it's better to be dismissed or ignored, than bear the cost of winning an argument.

 

[Darkwood]

What I object to strongly is the right wing insinuation specifically highlighting child grooming gangs to Muslim communities. Yes there have been grooming gangs linked to muslim communities but is this anymore prevalent than any other community? All the perverts I arrested were all dirty old white anglo saxons. I can tell you for a fact that across the board kids in care, due to lack of support and supervision have always been exposed to exploitation... a clear failure of our social service resourcing. Go back a few years and these children were treated as problem offenders due to the disruption they caused in communities due to drugs, theft and disorder. No one actually looked at the causes. What you have seen is a change on policing and social culture in the last few years. These kids would/do not talk or cooperate with police so bringing about prosecutions was extremely difficult. Its only in recent years that changes in legislation have enabled victims more support in giving evidence and also the ability to bring about victim-less prosecutions.

I think we are going way off topic here, what you raise is for its own thread and discussion and when I posted the examples I was not trying to make this about race and grooming gangs, it was to demonstrate how information is suppressed all the time from all sides, I even gave examples of charities into the mix which tends to be committed by white males under the guise of charity care workers..
My post was not to drag up a row over who commits the most offenses but simply to demonstrate the media, the government, police, councils, care services etc are all guilty of suppressing the truth and are themselves thus implicit in the continued problem.
I only brought it up as someone raised the question on suppression and if it really does occur like I suggest in USA politics, the best way to demonstrate it does occur is to example home based situations we are all too familiar with.

 

[FatAlan]

I think we are going way off topic here, what you raise is for its own thread and discussion and when I posted the examples I was not trying to make this about race and grooming gangs, it was to demonstrate how information is suppressed all the time from all sides, I even gave examples of charities into the mix which tends to be committed by white males under the guise of charity care workers..
My post was not to drag up a row over who commits the most offenses but simply to demonstrate the media, the government, police, councils, care services etc are all guilty of suppressing the truth and are themselves thus implicit in the continued problem.
I only brought it up as someone raised the question on suppression and if it really does occur like I suggest in USA politics, the best way to demonstrate it does occur is to example home based situations we are all too familiar with.

Agree in some respects that the truth is suppressed but the issue is, that when the truth is suppressed people jump to conclusions, falsify it and then use it to promote their own agendas.

 

[Darkwood]

Agree in some respects that the truth is suppressed but the issue is, that when the truth is suppressed people jump to conclusions, falsify it and then use it to promote their own agendas.

Totally agree 100% but the solution here is for those in influence and power to tell the truth in the first place then those that would manipulate such situation are without a position.

 

[FatAlan]

Totally agree 100% but the solution here is for those in influence and power to tell the truth in the first place then those that would manipulate such situation are without a position.

Preaching to the converted there. Unfortunately the default position of many politicians when caught out is to lie. Seems to be the only profession left that is not held to account for lying. Plenty of police officers have been locked up for lying to cover up honest mistakes when a mere admission of messing up would have meant only a slap on the wrist. Same goes for life in general. ---- happens!

 

[nicebutdim]

US government is currently talking about censorship from big tech companies and I caught this topical exchange from a press conference held by Governor of Florida, Ron DeSantis.

 

[electric al]

Trump not guilty .I wonder what the next move will be in the witch hunt ?

 

[Julie.]

Trump not guilty .I wonder what the next move will be in the witch hunt ?

Not really, the vote was guilty by 57 to 43 votes, that's guilty, but by an insufficient majority to convict.

Just like with a trade union voting, if 65% of the members vote; and every one of them votes to strike that is clearly confirmation that the majority of the membership agrees to strike. However by law 66% of the members must take part for a vote to carry so even though the majority vote for that strike, legally it would be unlawful.

You couldn't truly report this as "union votes against strike action", it ought to be "union votes for strike action but with insufficient votes to carry"

No political bias either way on this, but to say he was found not guilty isn't really truthful; he was found guilty, but with insufficient margin to convict, so is free to go. (Guilty but not convicted.)

In Scottish law there are three options guilty, not guilty and "not proven"

This latter option is really the case here, the majority found him guilty, but just like a jury where a certain % are required to convict, it isn't proven.

 

[Darkwood]

It was not a court of law, it was a public show of biased politics, Trump was never citing that riot and here is his defense team that the media forgot to show you when they gave you a biased view of the whole event.

Watch this and tell me this is not a staged muppet show trying to make Trump out to be the perpetrator, meanwhile the Dem's are faking evidence and deliberately taking tweets and speeches out of context.


This is the very reason this is not done in a court, because they needed to fake evidence.

 

[nicebutdim]

This was an interesting interview with Trump's attorney.

 

[GBDamo]

Not really, the vote was guilty by 57 to 43 votes, that's guilty, but by an insufficient majority to convict.

Just like with a trade union voting, if 65% of the members vote; and every one of them votes to strike that is clearly confirmation that the majority of the membership agrees to strike. However by law 66% of the members must take part for a vote to carry so even though the majority vote for that strike, legally it would be unlawful.

You couldn't truly report this as "union votes against strike action", it ought to be "union votes for strike action but with insufficient votes to carry"

No political bias either way on this, but to say he was found not guilty isn't really truthful; he was found guilty, but with insufficient margin to convict, so is free to go. (Guilty but not convicted.)

In Scottish law there are three options guilty, not guilty and "not proven"

This latter option is really the case here, the majority found him guilty, but just like a jury where a certain % are required to convict, it isn't proven.

For what its worth, these days, the writers of the US constitution was very prescient in that they knew partisanship would overcome truth.

The setting of a two third majority would ensure that only the most heinous of misdemeanours would be brought forward for impeachment as it would require such a counter partisan shift to convict that it would be pointless bringing articles to prosecute trivia.

Unfortunately we live now in a world lacking integrity where media optics are king and utter garage is packaged, promoted and presented as fact.

We should be thankful of these last vestiges of sanity that stop the leftist media from running amok and convicting anyone who falls foul of their fragile sensitivities.

 

[andyb]

It was not a court of law, it was a public show of biased politics, Trump was never citing that riot and here is his defense team that the media forgot to show you when they gave you a biased view of the whole event.

Watch this and tell me this is not a staged muppet show trying to make Trump out to be the perpetrator, meanwhile the Dem's are faking evidence and deliberately taking tweets and speeches out of context.


This is the very reason this is not done in a court, because they needed to fake evidence.

Darkwood, you are claiming that the media did not show this clip, that is literally a clip from US public media.

 

[Darkwood]

I was referring to our media, I have watched the BBC and ITV content and they are very weighted in their coverage IE they will happily show the so called evidence that has now been debunked against trump but when we see Trump defense team destroy that evidence we are not updated on the matter nor does the UK MSM show any of it leaving the public with a biased impression.

 

[GBDamo]

Darkwood, you are claiming that the media did not show this clip, that is literally a clip from US public media.

Any comment on the points that clip raises, that is that the Democrat prosecutors doctored tweets and selectively edited speeches to show Trump in a bad light?

Why bother if it is all so clear cut and Trump is literally Hitler?

Why fake things even a little bit?

...and what is not being reported in the media is that the evidence presented to this kangaroo court was faked.

...and even when it was shown by the defense that the evidence was faked 57 senators still voted to impeach.

There is not even a pretense at honour, it is all political games but the stakes are way to high now.

 

[Baddegg]

I think the democrats have made a right mess of this, I have little bias either way and think they are all nuts, I do agree with media outlets leaning to the left, I can’t see how anyone can’t see that even in this country, essentially they witch hunt has made trump stronger as the everyday vote carrying American who supports him will see this as a vindication thus removing any doubt that some of them must’ve had.....and if the democrats couldn’t see this outcome before pushing for the impeachment it beggars belief, guilty.....innocent it makes no difference to the outcome in something like this.......great thread though with good arguments from both sides.
These threads with good natured debate are what make this electricians forum what it is........ermmmm?

 

[GBDamo]

I think the democrats have made a right mess of this, I have little bias either way and think they are all nuts, I do agree with media outlets leaning to the left, I can’t see how anyone can’t see that even in this country, essentially they witch hunt has made trump stronger as the everyday vote carrying American who supports him will see this as a vindication thus removing any doubt that some of them must’ve had.....and if the democrats couldn’t see this outcome before pushing for the impeachment it beggars belief, guilty.....innocent it makes no difference to the outcome in something like this.......great thread though with good arguments from both sides.
These threads with good natured debate are what make this electricians forum what it is........ermmmm?

All this has done is to highlight that hatred and nastiness that runs through the veins of the left. It was never enough to detect Trump, they had to destroy him.

 

[nicebutdim]

I find it concerning that many people seem content with the idea of evidence being faked in the seat of US government and the fact that there appear to be no consequences for such actions.

If anyone was caught doing this in a court they'd find themselves facing quite serious charges, yet the people who did this are quite open about what they've done and seem comfortable that they're beyond reproach.

 

[andyb]

Any comment on the points that clip raises, that is that the Democrat prosecutors doctored tweets and selectively edited speeches to show Trump in a bad light?

Why bother if it is all so clear cut and Trump is literally Hitler?

Why fake things even a little bit?

...and what is not being reported in the media is that the evidence presented to this kangaroo court was faked.

...and even when it was shown by the defense that the evidence was faked 57 senators still voted to impeach.

There is not even a pretense at honour, it is all political games but the stakes are way to high now.

But they didn't doctor tweets that were submitted as evidence GB, Trump's lawyer even says that in the clip. As for selectively editing speeches, well to that I’d say, of course they did, they were the prosecution and I expect the defense selectively edited speeches to show Trump in a good light. This video is basically Trump’s lawyer summing up and if you just listen to that, and not all the evidence, you’ll probably find him not guilty. But you can say that in just about every trial that’s ever taken place.

 

[nicebutdim]

But they didn't doctor tweets that were submitted as evidence GB, Trump's lawyer even says that in the clip. As for selectively editing speeches, well to that I’d say, of course they did, they were the prosecution and I expect the defense selectively edited speeches to show Trump in a good light. This video is basically Trump’s lawyer summing up and if you just listen to that, and not all the evidence, you’ll probably find him not guilty. But you can say that in just about every trial that’s ever taken place.

The tweet had a blue check added to imply it was from a verified account. It could be argued that this is of little relevance, but still constitutes doctoring of evidence.

We also have the issue of a changed date on submitted evidence to give the impression that a comment from 2020 was made in 2021 and that it was therefore was relevant to the hearing, when it bore no relevance whatsoever.

The selected editing is unlikely to have any legal ramifications, but serves to highlight the fact that the 'trial' was farcical, considering it was this 'evidence' on which it was based.

 

[GBDamo]

But they didn't doctor tweets that were submitted as evidence GB, Trump's lawyer even says that in the clip. As for selectively editing speeches, well to that I’d say, of course they did, they were the prosecution and I expect the defense selectively edited speeches to show Trump in a good light. This video is basically Trump’s lawyer summing up and if you just listen to that, and not all the evidence, you’ll probably find him not guilty. But you can say that in just about every trial that’s ever taken place.

It doesn't matter who was presenting the un-edited footage, it is the fact that edited footage was submitted as evidence.

Its a cheep hack journalist trick that usually ends up in a defamation suit.

If the case against Trump was so strong why the need? Why the embelishment?

Its hope over substance and a desire to hear what they want to hear, and this coming from the side that actively encouraged rioting throughout the summer.

 

[Darkwood]

Lets just remember this was not a court trial, that so called 'evidence' would never have been allowed to be submitted if it was and had they tried the prosecution would be up on serious charges which could destroy their own careers.
The reason they did all this was simply to push a narrative of evil Trump which is completely false, this was a media Kangaroo court approach because they already knew they had nothing of a case hence calling witnesses was flipped from a yes to a no vote, they knew pelosi would have been called and that would have been devastating for her as she would have been under oath and have to explain why she blocked troops been called numerous times.
Trump offered 10,000 troops to be present or on standby given the intel of trouble on that day, his offer was declined, this is on record so how do you claim someone is inciting the riot if they offered to ensure it didn't occur?
This has all been played out for the media to continue its barrage of anti trump rhetoric, and no if this was actually a real court case you cannot doctor evidence, or present it in a manner that deliberately takes it out of context, the fact that this was even allowed in this impeachment trial demonstrates how far the left of the USA are willing to pervert justice to try stop Trump from running again. This is the Russia collusion all over again which was made up completely to distract from Hillary's email scandal and that was also shown to be false and he was acquitted likewise then, the claim of it been a distraction for Clinton emails was in a CIA report that recently got declassified, this was not the media or conspiracy making this up.

 

[DPG]

And the foum poll is still running pretty much 50/50 yes/no.

 

[Darkwood]

Given all the negative coverage Trump gets across the world it actually surprises me we are at 50/50 I would have expected more siding towards negative opinions, however if your are in Aussie land the MSM is opposite, Sky Australia actually puts Trump in a positive frame unlike Sky EU .. it goes to show they play a bias to whoever is pulling the strings.