Wagos or crimp?

[1Justin]

Hi, I'm pretty new to this but a first job (and remember the nice man from NICEIC etc needs to be impressed), requires me to extend cables which will be left maintenance free beneath floorboards. - It not being possible to take them back to source.

I've read many of the posts on crimps vs Wagos and boxes. Ignoring the Wagos right now, I have just bought a ratchet tool and some (cable clamp type) choc boxes, idea being to crimp the cables with insulated butt-crimps, enclose all in box (screw cable clamp type). I also have got some self amalgamating tape on the way with the intention of perhaps (or not) going round the whole thing.

Is perhaps the S-A tape an overkill? Maybe I should embrace modernity and begin with Wagos as I mean to continue?

If I do heatshrink instead of the boxes (I have no coloured heatshrink right now -only black), I was supposing it best to offset the three joints, over shrink L&N individually then overshrink the lot (or use self amalgamating?).

What grade/dia of heatshrink is recommended for red (1.5mm), blue (2.5mm) or yellow(6mm) size crimps? And also since I need to crimp 4mm cable, is there a crimp size missing here?

 

[topquark]

I would use crimps in that instance, either heat shrink or self amalgamating tape. Match colours of the cores for the heat shrink and use grey for the outside layer.

Edit: I should add SA tape if they're insulated crimps of course

 

[Richard Burns]

I agree with TQ, heat shrink and crimps.
I would point out the wagos are not currently classified as maintenance free connections and could not be used in an inaccessible locations.

Use a crimp that safely takes the cable and you will be OK with a decent crimping tool.

Self amalgamating tape is over doing a bit if you are crimping, heat shrinking and placing in a junction box.

 

[cakey]

I use Wagos in most cases..... Easier, quicker and though there's an argument that they are not officially maintenance free I'm sure their a safer connection than crimps. But going by the regs and to keep nic man happy crimps is prob best bet. If under floor board I would shove em in Choc box to save messing about with heat shrink and gun.

 

[lamb]

I would use maintenance free junction boxes (made by Ashley).
They are readily available from wholesalers in my area, pretty fast to terminate as they use push in terminals, takes about 2 mins per box.

 

[PC Electrics]

Crimps and wago-type connections both have their place in the modern world.

In your example where the junction is in a cavity with little space restriction or aesthetic requirement I would use a maintenance free JB from Ashley. Note that under a new standard maintenance free JBs must now carry the symbol "MF" - the Ashley ones defo do and meet a BS, don't know the number). Ashley are a Hager brand, so anywhere that does Hager stuff should have them.

In a situation where a joint has to be made and then buried (someone drille into a cable for example) I'd crimp. As you suggest, offset the crimps to keep the 'bulk' down. 6mm heat shrink over the L & N crimps, then 2 layers over the whole joint. Self amalgamating tape is a good alternative to heatshrink, but needs several layers and takes longer to apply, but has the advantage you can apply more layers over the conductors and less over the crimps to even the joint out and provide the protection where it is needed..

I buy my heat shrink from here:
Cable Accessories | Buy Cable Accessories Online THESITEBOX.COM
there are seperate sections for normal and adhesive lined.

I think Rich is correct that many wago-type connectors are not classed as MF, but I have a feeling that Wago branded ones are. Anyone know for sure?

 

[Specialist]

I use Wagos in most cases..... Easier, quicker and though there's an argument that they are not officially maintenance free I'm sure their a safer connection than crimps. But going by the regs and to keep nic man happy crimps is prob best bet. If under floor board I would shove em in Choc box to save messing about with heat shrink and gun.

Why would Wago's be Safer than a properly crimped splice ?

 

[1Justin]

Thanks Guys, and especially PC for the comprehensive answer.
Rgds

 

[cakey]

I agree with TQ, heat shrink and crimps.
I would point out the wagos are not currently classified as maintenance free connections and could not be used in an inaccessible locations.

Use a crimp that safely takes the cable and you will be OK with a decent crimping tool.

Self amalgamating tape is over doing a bit if you are crimping, heat shrinking and placing in a junction box.

Why would Wago's be Safer than a properly crimped splice ?

Wagos aren't better than a PROPERLY crimped splice but have seen some poor crimped terminations especially on solid cores. Wagos are connections for dummies.... That's why I use em

 

[Specialist]

Wagos aren't better than a PROPERLY crimped splice but have seen some poor crimped terminations especially on solid cores. Wagos are connections for dummies.... That's why I use em

Don;t get me wrong: Wago's are good connectors, that's why I carry them. I just wondered why you thought the were safer, bad crimped connections are down to the people installing them not the connector (Unless they're buying cheapies) but the same can be said for Wago's or any connector: They're only as good as the person installing them.

 

[PC Electrics]

I've had problems with the plastic splitting on cheap crimps and have had to go back to two installs where they were used (crimps bought from Screwfix). I now only use SWA branded ones which I buy from Edmundsons.

Having said that I have had a problem with SWA ones where the middle 'stop' was not properly formed, so the first conductor went too far in and then the second one didn't get enough purchase and so a poor joint was formed. I've had a conversation with the SWA rep when I met him at Edmundsons by chance and he promised to get their quality guys to look into it. Something to watch out for.

 

[Specialist]

1 to watch out for, cheers PC. I'm going to have to re-stock on crimps before long, have'nt bought any for years, I had a huge kit of Ampliversal crimps given to me by an ex boss when he retired but i've just about finished them off now lol.

 

[PC Electrics]

It was a very frustrating problem. Fortunately the client was both understanding of the problem (I threw my stock of about 1000 crimps into his bin) and appreciative of my efforts to put it right.

Hopefully others reading this will benefit from the learning.

Just as an aside - if you have SWA crimps check them for this. If your exhibit the problem then ring SWA up (the numbers on the packets). The more people call about things like this the more notice a manufacturer is going to take and will put it right.

 

[jase]

http://www.****direct.co.uk/Technical/DataSheets/Hager/JB_Guide.pdf

tlc-direct

 

[jase]

I would imagine that the hager maintenence fre JB;s are MF marked as they comply with both reg 561 and reg 563, whereas wagos on their own do not coply with reg 561
The hager maintenence frr JB;s use wago series 862 connectors in them and also have the cable clamps as required in 561

 

[andekoch]

I would imagine that the hager maintenence fre JB;s are MF marked as they comply with both reg 561 and reg 563, whereas wagos on their own do not coply with reg 561
The hager maintenence frr JB;s use wago series 862 connectors in them and also have the cable clamps as required in 561

correct, WAGO does not currently carry the MF mark (on the box) but are likely to get this/ apply for it in the new year. To comply the box plus connectors as a package needs to comply and (as I understand it) wago make the connectors and the box is made by a separate manufacturer (but branded wago by agreement and as it is designed for the wago connector).

 

[1Justin]

.. But I take it that if it's crimped (and insulated) connection inside a box, then "MF" marking is not relevant and more or less any choc-box type enclosure meeting IP4X (with cable strain relief if appropriate) would classify?

 

[andekoch]

that is what I would assume also.

 

[i=p/u]

never done any crimping, so what is there to know about it for a beginner...... i do domestic mainly, the odd week comercial...

in my head you stick to cables in and squeeze.. but im sure is little more than that.... i know less joins the better....

 

[Specialist]

Basically that yes mate, make sure there's no wire showing outside the crimp. Use the right size crimp for the wire & use a good ratchet crimper.

 

[Rauer]

I do a fair amount of domestic and I use crimps all day!! Mainly on board changes when the cables don't reach ........... So 90% of them!

 

[PC Electrics]

Yes, I prefer crimps inside a CU. 'Looks' a lot more professional and they take up less room.

 

[robd]

On this one I need to get myself a new ratchet crimper for insulated crimps, any ideas on a good set to get?

 

[Specialist]

I bought a Draper 1 from 1 of the wholesalers about 4 years ago now & so far it's done well. City's & Edmundsons would be your best bet or Screwfix.

 

[JONOXNAM]

Just a word of caution why you should never pull energized cables around.

The crimp you can see is the line conductor - found this done by a kitchen fitter who had fitted the lady's kitchen 2 years ago to extend the ring... the opening must have originally contained a socket outlet that the guy removed and he shoved this bodge to the side, (the opening is not covered with a blanking plate) it is located under a worktop behind a dishwasher so is out of sight normally..

This was meant to be a simple job but I found almost everything the guy did of poor workmanship or none compliant, not a single grommet used, not a single back box fly lead, spurs off spurs, as you can imagine the lady never received a EIC... The not so funny thing is he told her he was giving up the install game to go and teach electrics at a college....

 

[Rauer]

That don't look to good but without sounding rough , didn't think grommits were required by regs, just good practice, and fly leads are not required if there is a fixed lug on the back box

 

[JONOXNAM]

That don't look to good but without sounding rough , didn't think grommits were required by regs, just good practice, and fly leads are not required if there is a fixed lug on the back box

Yep rough is the word, I did write poor workmanship or none compliant, none of the back boxes had lugs, I could have listed everything but it would have been a big post...

I just wanted to warn people there are non safe installations are definitely out there...

 

[Rauer]

Sorry didn't mean lug what I meant was as long as one of the wings isn't adjustable and is fixed ,as in wht you screw your 3.5mm pin into

 

[JONOXNAM]

Ah well you learn something new everyday... many thanks.

I can't remember if it was an assessor or lecturer that asked me a question many moons ago about fly leads, I said something like 'its good practice to fit them in all cases' and he replied he always wanted to see them, so I guess he is the belts and braces type, I think I'll always still fit them as personally I think it looks like a more thorough job and takes little time.

So I guess the size of the fly lead needs to be the same as the cpc size? never really thought as I always just strip a bit of the T&E I am using but could you use a bit of 1mm for the fly lead on a 1.5mm ring cpc?

 

[Rauer]

I always fit them myself mate but yeah same as the circuit cpc really

 

[Geordie Spark]

Basically that yes mate, make sure there's no wire showing outside the crimp. Use the right size crimp for the wire & use a good ratchet crimper.

Wot's rong wi' a hammer n bolster like ???? :cowboy:

 

[Specialist]

Ah a Geordie Crimper:tounge_smile: . Every time i try to do that I cut the crimp in half

 

[Geordie Spark]

Ah a Geordie Crimper:tounge_smile: . Every time i try to do that I cut the crimp in half

That's cos it takes a delicate touch.

 

[Specialist]

That's cos it takes a delicate touch.

Oi i've got a Delicate touch, just like a baby Elephants:lol:

 

[1Justin]

OK, getting this thing back on track.

I don't generally go in for cheap tools, but now and then succumb for a moment for a cheap reality check, before I realize I was right all along.

I was passing Toolstation I bought a cheapo crimp tool ("expert" ratchet crimper ahem :lol and some insulated butt connectors (blue). A load of test joints later, and I don't even need to test these. - They wobble, even with the tool wound up to max. I have my table covered in little test pieces and I just can't get a tight joint.

Maybe the bolster really would have been more effective! (So just for fun Geordie, I clouted one with a blunt bolster and guess what - it really did make a better joint!!)

Please don't say "I told you so"..Like I said, I test myself now and then with cheap stuff. Sometimes there is a pleasant surprise (but not often).

I'm going to buy a better one tomorrow, and this will go back. (But would that make me criminally negligent because someone else might just try and use it?)