25mm tails maintenance free joint

[joehat]

Do they exist, I have just inspected a job and seen 25mm tails extended under floor boards in standard Henley 25mm tails block, can you get 25mm maintenance free joints? It would this have to be made accessible eg hatch or something Ect? Which I still feel is poor as I've seen them carpeted over all the time.

 

[Octopus]

New tails?

 

[Pete999]

Big kin wagos lol

 

[Risteard]

Crimps. With supplementary insulation over it. And then inside an enclosure as there will be no mechanical protection.

New tails is really a better option.

 

[Spoon]

Do they exist, I have just inspected a job and seen 25mm tails extended under floor boards in standard Henley 25mm tails block, can you get 25mm maintenance free joints? It would this have to be made accessible eg hatch or something Ect? Which I still feel is poor as I've seen them carpeted over all the time.

I'm not sure if you can get them or not but all maintenance free accessories should have a maintenance free logo (MF in a circle) on them.

 

[joehat]

Crimps. With supplementary insulation over it. And then inside an enclosure as there will be no mechanical protection.

New tails is really a better option.

I agree but after some other sparky extended them , I don't think the customer wants to pay for all the extra as its a 10ish meter run.
And probs a good half a day labor

Do wholesalers stock 25mm crimps ect

 

[Simonslimline]

I agree but after some other sparky extended them , I don't think the customer wants to pay for all the extra as its a 10ish meter run.
And probs a good half a day labor

Do wholesalers stock 25mm crimps ect

Yes i believe so.

 

[IzzyS]

A carpet hardly makes them inaccessible. As long as you know where the connections are. You've already found them, so note it on the report for the next guy - it could be you in 10 years time.

I've posted about this before, the plumbing regs (WRAS) don't consider things such as ceramic tiles, plasterboard, laminate flooring or basically anything you're likely to encounter in a domestic setting as a barrier to accessibility.

 

[Octopus]

A carpet hardly makes them inaccessible. As long as you know where the connections are. You've already found them, so note it on the report for the next guy - it could be you in 10 years time.

I've posted about this before, the plumbing regs (WRAS) don't consider things such as ceramic tiles, plasterboard, laminate flooring or basically anything you're likely to encounter in a domestic setting as a barrier to accessibility.

With respect that is bxllocks.

What do plumbers know anyway??

 

[Simonslimline]

A carpet hardly makes them inaccessible. As long as you know where the connections are. You've already found them, so note it on the report for the next guy - it could be you in 10 years time.

I've posted about this before, the plumbing regs (WRAS) don't consider things such as ceramic tiles, plasterboard, laminate flooring or basically anything you're likely to encounter in a domestic setting as a barrier to accessibility.

What about BS7671?

 

[Spoon]

A carpet hardly makes them inaccessible. As long as you know where the connections are. You've already found them, so note it on the report for the next guy - it could be you in 10 years time.

Really.... so where do you draw the line?
What if there is a bed or chest of drawers on top of the carpet where the connection is? Using your logic that would be ok, just shift them.

 

[DPG]

A carpet hardly makes them inaccessible. As long as you know where the connections are. You've already found them, so note it on the report for the next guy - it could be you in 10 years time.

I've posted about this before, the plumbing regs (WRAS) don't consider things such as ceramic tiles, plasterboard, laminate flooring or basically anything you're likely to encounter in a domestic setting as a barrier to accessibility.

Agree with the fellers above - this is just rubbish. Daz

 

[Risteard]

Agree with the fellers above - this is just rubbish. Daz

Actually, I have to partially agree with IzzyS. Accessibility is not defined, so there isn't really any reason to believe that it means there must be a welcome mat over the connection.

 

[DPG]

If there is a joint box which to access you have to move a wardrobe, lift a carpet, scrape up the underlay and then lift boards then how is that accessible? Daz

 

[Octopus]

"accessible" to me is something that you can see!

Under the carpet and floor boards ...... unless you've got x ray specs on....

 

[Andy78]

Just because accessible is not defined does not mean that concealing connections that are not deemed to be MF is acceptable.
I would not consider under a floor accessible in any circumstances. You have to remove part of the fabric of the building to get to it.

 

[Risteard]

"accessible" to me is something that you can see!

Why? I can't see what's in my roofspace, but I certainly wouldn't consider it to be inaccessible.

 

[Risteard]

I would not consider under a floor accessible in any circumstances.

That's not really the point though. Can you state definitively that someone who believes that it is accessible (where marked up on as fitted drawings etc.) is wrong, and if so can you provide evidence based upon BS 7671 to justify this view?

 

[Spoon]

That's not really the point though. Can you state definitively that someone who believes that it is accessible (where marked up on as fitted drawings etc.) is wrong, and if so can you provide evidence based upon BS 7671 to justify this view?

We can all manipulate the text "Every connection shall be accessible for inspection, testing and maintenance, except for the following"

Sticking it in concrete inside an armoured box that is welded shut, 200ft under the ground can still be classed as "accessible" then... It's just a matter of time and equipment.....

 

[Andy78]

That's not really the point though. Can you state definitively that someone who believes that it is accessible (where marked up on as fitted drawings etc.) is wrong, and if so can you provide evidence based upon BS 7671 to justify this view?

Probably not.
I believe the reg should be worded "readily accessible" To avoid confusion. The IET's solution is to provide alternatives in the form of MF joints and other methods where confusion exists over an ill defined reg. Crackers !

If a joint is accessible under a floor because you can take it all up later, then by the same logic a joint under plaster is accessible because it can be dug out later, and ceilings can be taken down so that's ok too.

 

[Simonslimline]

Surely its just common sense?

 

[Risteard]

Surely its just common sense?

Without knowing the precise circumstances behind the introduction of the Regulation it would be difficult to guess precisely as to its intent.

There are commonly held views on this Regulation, but that isn't necessarily to state that it is the correct view. It will always be a matter of opinion without further clarificaftion.

 

[Simonslimline]

Without knowing the precise circumstances behind the introduction of the Regulation it would be difficult to guess precisely as to its intent.

There are commonly held views on this Regulation, but that isn't necessarily to state that it is the correct view. It will always be a matter of opinion without further clarificaftion.

BS7671 seems like an endless minefield of different opinions to be honest.

IMHO if you have to cause disruption like lifting carpets and floorboards then it is not accessible. Each to their own though i suppose.

 

[Andy78]

Without knowing the precise circumstances behind the introduction of the Regulation it would be difficult to guess precisely as to its intent.

There are commonly held views on this Regulation, but that isn't necessarily to state that it is the correct view. It will always be a matter of opinion without further clarificaftion.

The intent of the regulation is quite clear, that a connection that does not fall under the exceptions listed is available for future inspection, testing and maintenance so that the system may be maintained in a safe condition in line with the requirements of the EAWR.

 

[ruston]

The regulations are so clear that there are a proliferation of books and guidance notes with other peoples opinions that cloud the problem even more.
In the regs, one edition it's correct the next it's not. You could not make it up.

 

[Simonslimline]

The regulations are so clear that there are a proliferation of books and guidance notes with other peoples opinions that cloud the problem even more.
In the regs, one edition it's correct the next it's not. You could not make it up.

That job is solely reserved for the IET.

 

[ruston]

That job is solely reserved for the IET.

No , the cronies with the vested interest.

 

[davesparks]

You could always use a resin SWA joint for the connection

 

[Darkwood]

I would assume the term accessible within our industry would refer to the common practices done to inspect and test a property, as a whole, ripping carpets up and pulling boards up wouldn't be carried out on such an inspection so any joint that wouldn't be expected to be checked, would in my mind be classed as inaccessible, I would expect any sparky worth his salt to stick his head in the loft and check for joints etc unless its boarded out then they should be MF.

This is my opinion and based on common sense of joints that are unlikely to be checked during a routine inspection report so any chances of obvious issues that could be spotted with a visual but not picked up by testing is reduced with the use of MF joints.

 

[haj]

I believe Wago do a tails joint

 

[Aindowsimon]

New tails or Through crimps and heat shrink within enclosure

 

[Dave OCD]

Think about it though, if done correctly with 100a single pole blocks each conductor could be under 4 brass screws, with all those properly tightened and the blocks within an enclosure I honestly can't see a problem.

 

[DPG]

Think about it though, if done correctly with 100a single pole blocks each conductor could be under 4 brass screws, with all those properly tightened and the blocks within an enclosure I honestly can't see a problem.

In reality probably not - are you going to put your name on the paperwork then? Daz

 

[Dave OCD]

In reality probably not - are you going to put your name on the paperwork then? Daz

If it was an EICR I'd put it as a code 3 with a comment Daz, I'd always use continuous lengths of tails on a new install though so the question doesn't apply in that scenario.

 

[DPG]

If it was an EICR I'd put it as a code 3 with a comment Daz, I'd always use continuous lengths of tails on a new install though so the question doesn't apply in that scenario.

Nicely got out of Daz

 

[Darkwood]

Think about it though, if done correctly with 100a single pole blocks each conductor could be under 4 brass screws, with all those properly tightened and the blocks within an enclosure I honestly can't see a problem.

The problem with standard screw terminals is the cable is subject to creep when they are first tightened, this is due to the copper shaping and equalising the stresses after tightening, this can leave the termination more susceptible to loosening with temperature variations and/or vibration over time.
It can effect larger core cables more so thus it is recommended to check all your dist' board connections at the end of the job, chances are you will find the tails need a tweak.
Other issues are cable movement which may act on the termination, if cables are clamped then not an issue. When you use MF connections or crimps then alot of these issues are reduced to a minimum thus considered safe to terminate and forget.

 

[Dave OCD]

It's funny but I've always been a bit wary of crimps, just me I suppose.

 

[Andy78]

It's funny but I've always been a bit wary of crimps, just me I suppose.

Depends how you do them. I have always been a bit suspect of indent crimpers. There is too much margin for error when manually setting them and I believe the indent method puts too much stress on the crimp sleeve.

I have complete faith in a crimp made with the correct hexagon die in a decent tool though.

 

[Octopus]

If it was an EICR I'd put it as a code 3 with a comment Daz, I'd always use continuous lengths of tails on a new install though so the question doesn't apply in that scenario.

how on earth would you know the connection is under the carpet, under the floor boards??

I'd be VERY impressed if you can spot a totally CONCEALED connection is such a location when doing an EICR!

 

[Darkwood]

It's funny but I've always been a bit wary of crimps, just me I suppose.

If you own a budget £1 market crimper then I would just be as weary, if your crimper isn't subject to calibration or you have a set that doesn't require it then again I wouldn't consider them reliable. At a minimum you should be looking for a ratchet crimper for your standard insulated red,yellow,blue crimp lugs and small ratchet indent crimper for your uninsulated say 10 -16mm up to 25mm.

 

[Stu1312]

Not a big fan of indent crimpers so invested in these about a year ago very pleased: CRT 50 For Copper Tube Terminals 6.0 - 50.0mm² - - Tooling For Copper Tube Terminals - Copper Tube Terminals & Tooling - Connect - Cablecraft

 

[HandySparks]

how on earth would you know the connection is under the carpet, under the floor boards??

I'd be VERY impressed if you can spot a totally CONCEALED connection is such a location when doing an EICR!

If they went in black and red, and emerged as blue and brown, you might get a bit suspicious. :lol:

 

[PEG]

Depends how you do them. I have always been a bit suspect of indent crimpers. There is too much margin for error when manually setting them and I believe the indent method puts too much stress on the crimp sleeve.

I have complete faith in a crimp made with the correct hexagon die in a decent tool though.

As have tool manufacturers such as Klauke and the companies which purchase and use them,such as BNFL and a dozen similar others...:lol:

 

[Dave OCD]

how on earth would you know the connection is under the carpet, under the floor boards??

I'd be VERY impressed if you can spot a totally CONCEALED connection is such a location when doing an EICR!

Oh dear, the answer was hypothetical in reply to a question from DPG and based on the assumption that I was aware of the issue, nothing more than that.

 

[sparksburnout]

Joining meter tails is a crap idea. Run some new uns in.

 

[IzzyS]

I would assume the term accessible within our industry would refer to the common practices done to inspect and test a property, as a whole, ripping carpets up and pulling boards up wouldn't be carried out on such an inspection so any joint that wouldn't be expected to be checked, would in my mind be classed as inaccessible, I would expect any sparky worth his salt to stick his head in the loft and check for joints etc unless its boarded out then they should be MF.

This is my opinion and based on common sense of joints that are unlikely to be checked during a routine inspection report so any chances of obvious issues that could be spotted with a visual but not picked up by testing is reduced with the use of MF joints.

I'm not suggesting hiding JBs is good practice - merely stating that at least the plumbers have some proper guidance on what is considered "accessible" in their industry.

Regarding loft spaces, everyone I look in seems to have 18" of fibreglass insulation covering pipes, cables, downlights & LV transformers. I for one don't remove it all in the search for JBs that may or may not be there.

However, there must be literally millions of round JBs hidden in the UK domestic sector, with only a small percentage causing any problems. The test part of the I&T usually shows up any problems, then the fun begins.

 

[Darkwood]

I'm not suggesting hiding JBs is good practice - merely stating that at least the plumbers have some proper guidance on what is considered "accessible" in their industry.

Regarding loft spaces, everyone I look in seems to have 18" of fibreglass insulation covering pipes, cables, downlights & LV transformers. I for one don't remove it all in the search for JBs that may or may not be there.

However, there must be literally millions of round JBs hidden in the UK domestic sector, with only a small percentage causing any problems. The test part of the I&T usually shows up any problems, then the fun begins.

The very reason you need to stick your head up, if you see recessed lights that require clearance and there is non obvious then I would at least check on 1 fitting to gage the general state of the other regarding their circumstances, I never said go through the loft with a fine tooth brush but a general overview looking for any obvious breaches or concerns.
It should always be expressed the depth the inspection will go to with the customer and yes agree, many joints won't be found but that only strengthens my point of view that any connection made that is likely to miss regular inspection should be made maintenance free for those very reasons.

It's not about the thousands that are missed without consequence, its about the few that don't get inspected and do cause damage to life or property.