Are people moving away from rings

[MG201]

hi all I’m just wondering are the forum members moving away from doing ring circuits and doing radials instead ? I have been reading that this may be the way industry is going wether this is to aid in the introduction of AFDDs I don’t know , obviously AFDDs won’t work in rings, that’s why I recon radials will have to be standard before AFDDs are used.
There will no doughy be some sparks who install AFDDs on rings which will defeat the purpose of them , ( if I’m right )
Should all new builds now be installing radials ??

 

[Flanders]

Deleted duplicate post

 

[Flanders]

No one has discounted overloading as a safety issue, the observation was about comparative risk from a fault condition. RFCs have a useful safety feature that they suppress arcing if a conductor breaks, but now we are asked to make an arc more likely so an AFDD can detect it. It's fair to ask whether that improves or degrades electrical safety.

What's the greater hazard, a 5000 degree plasma in part of a PVC cable, or a temperature rise of a few degrees along it's length? I don't know the answer but I'd like to see some UK evidence before dumping RFCs and adopting a solution designed for the hazards of American domestic wiring.

Looks like we need John Ward to do one of his experiments

 

[Mike Johnson]

I suppose eventually we will adopt the EU standard of dual MCB's and spur's, together with dedicated spur's for appliances, Brexit accepted.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Duplicate post?

 

[Pete999]

I suppose eventually we will adopt the EU standard of dual MCB's and spur's, together with dedicated spur's for appliances, Brexit accepted.

By Dual CBs I presume you mean DP CBs, as for appliances on their own dedicated circuit, a good idea in my book especially for the larger appliances greater than 2KW as an example.

 

[Shoei]

Don't protect a 2.5mm2 socket radial with a 32 Amp OCPD should be a 20 Amp, 32 Amp radial will require 4mm2 Amendment 15 BBB.

Agree, those numbers illustrate worst case if you have a 32A protected 2.5mm RFC, and it breaks somewhere, putting max current on one sector of the ring.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Most of the special circuits, that should be on an individual DP CB if I can remember them all are:
Washing Machine
Tumble Dryer
Oven
Hob
Dish Washer
Water Heater
UFH
Fridge On separate RCD
Freezer On separate RCD
Alarms
Outside dependancies
Garage
Electric heating inc ASHP
Towel Rails
Extract Fans
Max of eight sockets on 1.5mm protected by 16A
Max of twelve sockets on 2.5mm protected by 20A
No ring mains allowed
All lighting to have an earth running to them even if not used
Everything metal has to be earthed even if built into the walls
No T & E allowed all cables must be double insulated and of the same cross section
That's all I can think of at the moment, but if anyone is interested PM me and I can direct to the best information source.

 

[chrisdungan]

I'm a Kiwi sparkie ( actually a registered electrical inspector). I've worked in Eire and the UK 2007/8. in our part of the world ring circuits are almost completely unknown in domestic. Probably for the same reason you guys do rings. "Because that's the way we've always done it........"
There are pluses and minuses in both systems.
Here we usually wire our radial circuits in 2.5 stranded, the cheapskates will use 1.5. Yes I know seems weird to you guys but we wire domestic lighting circuits in 1.0mm. the only time we use solid conductor is in 1.omm all the other sizes are stranded!
So modern kitchens usually have 2 circuits with a separate circuit going to the separate laundry. In kiwi land we don't put clothes washers in the kitchen, they go in a serarate laundry room or a laundry space in the garage ( usually a double or treble in a bigger house)
These days that 2.5mm circuit will often be rated at 16amp rather than 20 because of our derating factors due to thermal insulation. RCDs are required and now AFDDs are becoming the norm.
Faultfinding and testing with radials is a breeze.
The only downside with a house full of radials and a switchboard full of CBs, RCDs and AFDDs is you need a minimum of 45 ways. 60 ways if you have PV and you live in the country with a water pump and septic disposal system. There are even some councils that now require rain water storage and pumping for non potable water like toilet flushing and garden watering in town.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Have they done away with Licencing for Electricians now?

 

[Mike Johnson]

No you don't need a licence to be a SA

 

[Pete999]

No you don't need a licence to be a SA

What's an SA?

 

[Mike Johnson]

S as in Smart A as in, use your imagination, but your avatar has a plug attached to it.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I was enquiring as to whether New Zealand had done away with licencing for Electricians.
I’ve been informed that they have, thought I’d ask a Kiwi whether it is in fact the case.

 

[Midwest]

I was enquiring as to whether New Zealand had done away with licencing for Electricians.
I’ve been informed that they have, thought I’d ask a Kiwi whether it is in fact the case.

That saw wrist is making you unusually cranky.

 

[Mike Johnson]

I was enquiring as to whether New Zealand had done away with licencing for Electricians.
I’ve been informed that they have, thought I’d ask a Kiwi whether it is in fact the case.

In that case you could have worded your original post better, it looks like one of those SA comments you get on here when someone ask's for advice.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

In that case you could have worded your original post better, it looks like one of those SA comments you get on here when someone ask's for advice.

Yep, I probably should have done.
Any chance of an answer to my question?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Most of the special circuits, that should be on an individual DP CB if I can remember them all are:
Washing Machine
Tumble Dryer
Oven
Hob
Dish Washer
Water Heater
UFH
Fridge On separate RCD
Freezer On separate RCD
Alarms
Outside dependancies
Garage
Electric heating inc ASHP
Towel Rails
Extract Fans
Max of eight sockets on 1.5mm protected by 16A
Max of twelve sockets on 2.5mm protected by 20A
No ring mains allowed
All lighting to have an earth running to them even if not used
Everything metal has to be earthed even if built into the walls
No T & E allowed all cables must be double insulated and of the same cross section
That's all I can think of at the moment, but if anyone is interested PM me and I can direct to the best information source.

Most of the first 15 items on that list is over engineering and a complete waste of resources and money.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If it’s anything like the US, dryers are often 20A.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Most of the first 15 items on that list is over engineering and a complete waste of resources and money.

Well that's certainly one individual's opinion.

 

[Pete999]

Most of the special circuits, that should be on an individual DP CB if I can remember them all are:
Washing Machine
Tumble Dryer
Oven
Hob
Dish Washer
Water Heater
UFH
Fridge On separate RCD
Freezer On separate RCD
Alarms
Outside dependancies
Garage
Electric heating inc ASHP
Towel Rails
Extract Fans
Max of eight sockets on 1.5mm protected by 16A
Max of twelve sockets on 2.5mm protected by 20A
No ring mains allowed
All lighting to have an earth running to them even if not used
Everything metal has to be earthed even if built into the walls
No T & E allowed all cables must be double insulated and of the same cross section
That's all I can think of at the moment, but if anyone is interested PM me and I can direct to the best information source.

Need a big CU to fit all those DPCBs Mike

 

[Mike Johnson]

Certainly do.

 

[Pete999]

View attachment 47445

Certainly do.

Don't you think you are over complicating things a bit Mike?

 

[telectrix]

seen smaller boards running factories.
1980's houses were getting utility rooms
1990's " " " en suite bathrooms
2010's " are " plant rooms.

next "progression" might be nuclear generators in the attic for all power, heat,cooling, cooking etc.


might even be able to find a space to sit and watch the telly.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Don't you think you are over complicating things a bit Mike?

Not me, that's the EU regulations for you, but if you look closely you will see the board is three phase.

 

[Pete999]

Not me, that's the EU regulations for you, but if you look closely you will see the board is three phase.

We don't have Polyphase supplies in most domestic dwellings Mike. Can't see what you are getting at?

 

[Mike Johnson]

The start of my posts on this thread was concerning the use of of DP RCD's in the EU and that rings aren't used, also note that three phase is common on domestic supplies, especially in more rural areas.

 

[Toneyz]

For what I have seen in the E.U. consumer units have an RCD as the main switch and D.P MCB's so if there is an N-E fault you turn off the C.B wherein the UK if we have an N-E fault you need to find the fault.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Narrows down the fault finding exercise considerably, having only one circuit to check, so at least one plus point.

 

[Lucien Nunes]

I think the point is that when you abandon the diversity of 32A socket-outlet circuits (note: 32A but not specifically rings) you end up with many more circuits because each circuit may only be able to supply one appliance. Our house had one ring serving the main living areas including the whole kitchen with washing machine, dishwasher, tumble dryer, microwave, all portable cooking appliances etc. The 30A fuse never blew in 25 years and when replaced by a 30A MCB that never tripped. It would take four or five 20A circuits to give the same flexibility.

I do like DP or perhaps better SPSN MCBs for DP isolation. Europeans were often ahead of us in these things. Old Dutch fuse boxes (of which I have a few) that use Diazed bottle fuses, have a DP isolator for each outgoing circuit as standard, so they were onto this even before MCBs.

 

[Selfmade]

I used to think rings would gradually be replaced by radials. My tutor for one was dead against rings. But I can't see it happening now - replacing one ring with probably several radials when each extra circuit means an extra £200+ on an AFDD. 32A radials? Maybe, if they start making sockets with terminals that will accept two or three 6mm2 conductors!