Has my electrician done a dangerous wiring job?

[Homervanderjazz]

Hi I recently had an electrician do a bit of re-wiring to a light switch, however he has run the wires horizontally from the light switch to the fuse box. One of my friends has had a look and said this is dangerous as the wires should go up through the ceiling or down through the floorboards. So my question is is this dangerous and should I get them to re do it as my friend says? Thanks

 

[oldtimer]

Some pictures would be nice

 

[Baker1988]

If they have gone directly horizontal then it is still in the permited safe zone and there for is not dangerous. Is the wire buried int plaster or is it surface mounted in trunking?

 

[Homervanderjazz]

 

[Deleted member 26818]

If it's been wired in what is referred to as T&E, then no, that is not right.
Your friend is actually quite right, the electrician, should go straight up from the first light switch, either into the ceiling or the coving, round the room untill directly above the second light switch, and then down to the point which is behind the fuse box.
It would be alright to do it as shown in the pictures, if the depth of the cables is 50mm or greater, but that has to be from both sides of the wall, or if the cable used has an earthed metallic sheath. Or if earthed conduit or trunking is used. Another option would be to place some kind of mechanical protection over the cables, it would have to be good enough to prevent the cables being penetrated by screws or nails.

 

[i=p/u]

spinlondon says it all apart dodgy... but the guy installing it is probably saying rcd rcd qwill cover it

 

[Deleted member 26818]

spinlondon says it all apart dodgy... but the guy installing it is probably saying rcd rcd qwill cover it

That would be a departure, and the installer would have to note it as such, and attest that it would be just as safe as running the cables in the normall manner.

 

[i=p/u]

would it be an acceptable departure if perosn ordering work said not touching ceilings and floors above...

 

[mogga]

DOES YOUR ELECTRICIAN HAVE "ki" AT THE END OF HIS SURNAME?
TBH LOOKS MORE LIKE DIY "THATS HOW THE GUY IN bNq SAID HOW TO DO IT"

 

[Deleted member 26818]

would it be an acceptable departure if perosn ordering work said not touching ceilings and floors above...

In my opinion no.
There are a number of methods that would allow the work to comply, which would not involve a prohibitive expense.
The method is not generally accepted by industry as being an acceptable method.
It does not involve the use of new materials, which are likely to be become accepted by the regulations at a future date, as a method of compliance.

 

[i=p/u]

i.e earthed/screend cable/conductors???

 

[DNS1]

He could just have gone straight up from the switch, put the horizontal run less than 150mm from the ceiling and then straight down again.

That way RCD protection alone would have done the job.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

i.e earthed/screend cable/conductors???

Use of such conductors, would comply with the Regulations, and not be a departure.

 

[Homervanderjazz]

Thanks for the replies folks, I guess the main point is should I have it done again or have it plastered over the way it is? Thanks

 

[telectrix]

the term that springs to mind is " bear's arse". tell him to re-route it. that is no way acceptable.

 

[Octopus]

Thanks for the replies folks, I guess the main point is should I have it done again or have it plastered over the way it is? Thanks

I think you should ask the electrician to come back and route the cables in the "safe zones" - have you paid him yet?

 

[SimpleSimon]

I cant understand the reason behind his method, surely it would have been easier for him anyway to follow the safe zones when chasing out?!!?

 

[tony mc]

It will only be a matter of time before a nail or screw damages a cable!

A shelf or something else placed onto the wall.

I bet the person putting them in will not come back for free and repair not only the cable but your decoration plaster etc!!

 

[Mark42]

Crikey, that’s a lot of chasing for a light switch! This man must enjoy hard work.

The runs by the door appear to be more than 150mm from the corners so are (just) out of the regulation zones. The horizontal run is compliant.

BUT contrary to what others have said above, IF the circuit is 30mA RCD protected (OP please check if there’s a little test button on the breaker for this circuit in the consumer unit) my understanding is that wiring can be shallow, and unprotected, so it’s not a major departure overall.

I checked Section 522 in detail when I rewired my own house, and wanted to keep some electrically sound, but badly-run existing lighting drops, which were certainly less than 50mm deep. My installation now has 6A/30mA RCBOs on all the lighting circuits. I’m absolutely sure it complies.

My understanding is that new cable installs:

1. MUST be in the ‘safe zones’ but,

2. If the wires are shallow, have no mechanical protection, or are in a partition with metallic structure (regardless of cable depth), that’s fine, but the circuit must be RCD protected, that’s all.

Clearly one can’t be expected to cut a horizontal chase over 50mm deep into, say, a single brick load-bearing wall without the immediate danger not being electrical…

ps That said, I think it looks a bit of a pig’s ear, and it's not how I’d have done it, but I’m not convinced it’s grossly non-compliant.
Maybe there was an absolute client prohibition on disturbing ceilings or floors? Or it’s a flat with concrete ceilings and a solid floor?

 

[TPES]

That wasn't an electrician who did that, that's someone who thinks they know how..... But they don't

 

[DaveyD]

Here you go. Draw it on for him ...

 

[telectrix]

Crikey, that’s a lot of chasing for a light switch! This man must enjoy hard work.

The runs by the door appear to be more than 150mm from the corners so are (just) out of the regulation zones. The horizontal run is compliant.

BUT contrary to what others have said above, IF the circuit is 30mA RCD protected (OP please check if there’s a little test button on the breaker for this circuit in the consumer unit) my understanding is that wiring can be shallow, and unprotected, so it’s not a major departure overall.

I checked Section 522 in detail when I rewired my own house, and wanted to keep some electrically sound, but badly-run existing lighting drops, which were certainly less than 50mm deep. My installation now has 6A/30mA RCBOs on all the lighting circuits. I’m absolutely sure it complies.

My understanding is that new cable installs:

1. MUST be in the ‘safe zones’ but,

2. If the wires are shallow, have no mechanical protection, or are in a partition with metallic structure (regardless of cable depth), that’s fine, but the circuit must be RCD protected, that’s all.

Clearly one can’t be expected to cut a horizontal chase over 50mm deep into, say, a single brick load-bearing wall without the immediate danger not being electrical…

ps That said, I think it looks a bit of a pig’s ear, and it's not how I’d have done it, but I’m not convinced it’s grossly non-compliant.
Maybe there was an absolute client prohibition on disturbing ceilings or floors? Or it’s a flat with concrete ceilings and a solid floor?

the route up by the door and the horizontal run above the door are both outside of prescribed zones so, no matter how many RCDs protect the circuit, unless the runs are in earthed metallic conduit, they are non compliant and therefore unacceptable. end of.

 

[DaveyD]

end of.

... Word!

 

[1shortcircuit]

It sounds to me like the OP should have just asked the neighbour to do it, at least then it would have complied.

What a bodge job. OP where did you hear about this electrician? Are they part of a Part P scheme? I'm afraid my advice would be DON'T get them back. Find a reputable electrician to carry out the repairs to this shoddy workmanship.

:thumbsup

 

[Octopus]

This thread just goes to show how poorly the "safe" zones are publicised (had to educate a builder just yesterday), how little some sparkies know, and how on earth is Joe Public supposed to know??

 

[DaveyD]

This thread just goes to show how poorly the "safe" zones are publicised (had to educate a builder just yesterday), how little some sparkies know, and how on earth is Joe Public supposed to know??

Kitchen fitters, general builders, labourers et cetera

 

[electromonkey]

I'm with shortcircuit.

Get another spark. God knows what else they may have done wrong.

 

[needasparks]

Be interesting to see a pic of the fuseboard to complete the list of non-compliances as alot of assumption has been made.

 

[cbw]

Hahahahahahaha....Thought it was 1st April!!!!!



Work like this keeps me in my part time Ambulance job!!!!

 

[jimmymac]

What colour horse did he have?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Maybe he couldn't be bothered to move the box he was stood on at the door to do the rest?

 

[Mark42]

the route up by the door and the horizontal run above the door are both outside of prescribed zones so, no matter how many RCDs protect the circuit, unless the runs are in earthed metallic conduit, they are non compliant and therefore unacceptable. end of.

Of course you are quite correct.

But how far out from the suggested 150mm do you reckon it is? OP can you measure it please? What is the distance from the chases near the door from the corner of the walls and the ceiling? It’s important.

I’m not justifying the work, but just trying to introduce a little reasonableness into the general condemnation. I see it as doing 33mph in the 30mph zone. Here’s the analogy: that extra 3mph is just as likely to kill, with a (very unlikely) combination of circumstances, as this horrible job is.

And why is it 150mm anyway? (Remember it’s GUIDANCE, not law; many people forget that). Presumably it’s because few people are likely bang stuff into the wall in those zones. Or the general public are educated that that’s where wires are likely to be. Yeah?

There’s a big difference between a job which is unprofessional, messy, or just plain ugly, and one which is clearly dangerous.

So is 150mm safe, but 151mm dangerous? or 160mm? Or 200mm? Where do you draw the line? If you were a prosecution expert witness in court what would you argue, and why?

There’s more to British law than ‘That’s what the guidance says, end of story.’

Would you concede it could be MUCH worse? He didn’t run the cable diagonally to save a quid’s worth of cable. It is T&E, not singles taped together, or flex. I doubt many people on here with a few years experience haven’t seen that kind of thing again and again.

But I’m assuming there IS a 30mA RCD. Without that, I’d condemn it outright like the rest of the posters.

 

[Octopus]

Of course you are quite correct.

But how far out from the suggested 150mm do you reckon it is? OP can you measure it please? What is the distance from the chases near the door from the corner of the walls and the ceiling? It’s important.

I’m not justifying the work, but just trying to introduce a little reasonableness into the general condemnation. I see it as doing 33mph in the 30mph zone. Here’s the analogy: that extra 3mph is just as likely to kill, with a (very unlikely) combination of circumstances, as this horrible job is.

And why is it 150mm anyway? (Remember it’s GUIDANCE, not law; many people forget that). Presumably it’s because few people are likely bang stuff into the wall in those zones. Or the general public are educated that that’s where wires are likely to be. Yeah?

There’s a big difference between a job which is unprofessional, messy, or just plain ugly, and one which is clearly dangerous.

So is 150mm safe, but 151mm dangerous? or 160mm? Or 200mm? Where do you draw the line? If you were a prosecution expert witness in court what would you argue, and why?

There’s more to British law that ‘That’s what the guidance says, end of story.’

Would you concede it could be MUCH worse? He didn’t run the cable diagonally to save a quid’s worth of cable. It is T&E, not singles taped together, or flex. I doubt many people on here with a few years experience haven’t seen that kind of thing again and again.

But I’m assuming there IS a 30mA RCD. Without that, I’d condemn it outright like the rest of the posters.

Whats not good here, IMHO, is the run above the door as it doesn't look as it there will be any form of "box" on this "level".

 

[DNS1]

So is 150mm safe, but 151mm dangerous? or 160mm? Or 200mm? Where do you draw the line?

Personally I'd say the line is drawn at 150mm from the corner and from the ceiling...

As far as I understood, these were "regs" as opposed to "guidance"

 

[DNS1]

Besides, anyone who knows about the zones, would have moved that horizontal run about 3 inches up and been safe and compliant...

What was the point in not running it in the zone in this case? It's not like he saved more than about 3 inches of T+E

 

[Phil]

without the op getting his tape measure out i would say he is about 155mm outside the safe zone on the drop down.

 

[Octopus]

Besides, anyone who knows about the zones, would have moved that horizontal run about 3 inches up and been safe and compliant...

What was the point in not running it in the zone in this case? It's not like he saved more than about 3 inches of T+E

When I look at the photo showing the run above the door the cables appear to go into the wall. There is no accessory at this point and therefore the horizontal run above the door is not in a safe zone. IMHO

 

[DNS1]

When I look at the photo showing the run above the door the cables appear to go into the wall. There is no accessory at this point and therefore the horizontal run above the door is not in a safe zone. IMHO

It's not, but it would have been if it was a bit higher up

 

[Octopus]

It's not, but it would have been if it was a bit higher up

Well, we're all guessing as to the reasoning for why this happened and the thought processes (if any) the installer had before using the route as photographed.

Given where the cables go into the wall, the homeowner is probably lucky not to have had the cables from the other switch drilled into/through.

Wonder what the home owner is going to do next?

 

[Mark42]

When I look at the photo showing the run above the door the cables appear to go into the wall. There is no accessory at this point and therefore the horizontal run above the door is not in a safe zone. IMHO

Good point - if for some weird reason there is an accessory on the OTHER side of the wall that part of the run becomes compliant, and then we're only left with the vertical bit by the door.

You're probably all correct of course, but it's satisfying to look a bit deeper than just shout 'cowboy' to make oneself feel better. Playing devil's advocate can sometimes be instructive.

Plus there's a lot of money in legal argument, and your overalls stay clean I've done it a few times in another industry.

... I would say he is about 155mm outside the safe zone on the drop down.

Bloody hell, that's accurate! What did you do, print the picture and scale it off the door or something?