Green deal in the press.

you call 6.9% " eye-watering"? . my bank have just offered me a personal loan at 26.9%. no that's a rip off. if i ever saw one.
 
For those of you old enough to remember------- "The Emperors New Clothes"------me thinks

and Im a GDA!
 
British politics stinks. Caroline Flint is point scoring and she knows full well that this kind of bad publicity at the start of a scheme can seriously damage it.

- - - Updated - - -

British politics stinks. Caroline Flint is point scoring and she knows full well that this kind of bad publicity at the start of a scheme can seriously damage it.
 
Eco Deal said:
Just done A GDR

£750 cash back
Eco funding

the customer eyes will be watering with happiness ....
Click to expand...

This is what I see to be a large fault in the system and will lead to the GD being sold when there are better alternatives.

Let's assume the customer will stay in the house for the full term of the system/loan, it sounds great to offer them £750 and a system that in essence should be free (it will not cost them more than they are paying out at the moment) but add up the full repayment at around 7% with the compounded interest and that £750 is just the sweetener to get them to sign up.
Go to the high street for funding at around 3.5% compound that over the term and the customer would save thousands.

If they wanted the GD to work well then the interest should be better that most can get on the high street, simple...

This is part of the problem with the economy in the western world, borrow because it looks good for today and to hell with tomorrow...
 
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Nicely put ! The rich get richer... GD is really for wealthy landlords wishing to upgrade there stock at the expense of the tenant (best of all without putting up rent) !! Win win ....!
 
I see that Mark Group are offering free GD assessments (at least for an introductory period) and BG are charging £99. Cut-throat competition from the start.
 
As normal the Taxpayers Alliance are up their own back sides as this is self funding and using what was CERT.

More interesting is the reference to the scheme in Germany which was for insulation. This was withdrawn as it was deemed to have failed after a short period due to very low take up. This is in a country where electricity costs a lot more than in the UK.

Whilst being highly sceptical about the Green Deal, I do not have a better answer than the general principals on which it is based. The sums of money involved in improving the thermal efficiency of existing building stock are vast and unaffordable from the public purse. The need to do something about it is urgent if emission reduction targets are to be met. There are also major implications if the prevention of a marked rise in fuel poverty is seen as a priority.

The two major issues are the cost of finance and the reliability of the Green Deal assessment in accurately predicting fuel savings.

The first should be relatively easy if a little pragmatism was used as the driving force rather than ideology and libertarianism. The Government has been happy to pump vast sums of money in to the economy through Quantative Easing, the idea being the sale of bonds would stimulate the banking sector to buy this cheap money and do what they need to do to get the economy moving. All it appeared to do was allow them to reinforce their balance sheets. The Government then provided yet further funding at base rate or less specifically for lending for mortgages and business. Some of this is filtering through to first time buyers, but the banks are still not playing their part. Why not provide money on the same basis to the green investment bank or other Green Deal funders with a proviso of a maximum interest rate of 2.5%? This would be more than enough to cover the costs of loan administration and provide a profit. Maybe this won't happen as you really need a 'not for profit' organisation to run it which would mean the Governments fat friends couldn't get their snouts in the trough.

What it would mean was more Green Deal measures being cost effective as financing costs were lower. The benefits of increased commercial activity would stimulate the wider economy through the multiplier effect.

We also need to see no early repayment penalties on Green Deal loans. It is highly likely this will be something required as many prospective purchasers may make it a condition of sale if there is such a charge against a property.

The second point may be a little more difficult. Pressure on GDAs in vertically integrated businesses are likely to be considerable. My view is they should all be independent contractors to remove this risk. We are then left with their skill set and the methodology they work with. Talking to professionals in the field they are highly sceptical that a couple of weeks training at most can adequately equip someone with the kind of detailed knowledge required to properly assess a building and calculate it's performance. You are left relying on the methodology. If it is not sufficiently robust and foolproof in any way, there will be problems. As there are areas that can be subjective over occupancy and use, there are inherent risks. I do not have sufficient detail knowledge to produce any sort of empirical analysis, but understand from the comments of others there is a major risk. I suspect there will be adjustments over time as issues come to light. What is more important is compensatory funding for anyone who falls victim to a lack of cost saving.

This still does not take in to account people who are currently under-heating their property. They will simply use the same amount of energy to improve their comfort levels and be faced with a Green Deal Loan on top.

Part of the problem with the Green Deal is a lack of reasoned communication and explanation. If people can see they are able to save money, they will go for it. The problem is reasoned explanation means the Government having to own up to a number of inconvenient truths about the future cost of energy and the shambles of current energy policy. Whilst it remains the puppet of the fossil fuel and nuclear industries, this is unlikely to happen.
 
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The Green Deal Finance Company (GDFC) has today confirmed that initial interest rate for finance packages available under the Green Deal energy efficiency scheme will stand at 6.96 per cent.

The underlying rate means that when operating fees are taken into account indicative interest rates on a financing package of £5,000 will range from 7.67 per cent to 7.96 per cent depending on the duration of the loan.

The company said that due to the fixed costs associated with the administration fees households and businesses would get a better rate of interest if they undertook a wider range of building improvements.

For example, a Green Deal package of £1,500 that only undertook basic insulation would result in a maximum interest rate of 9.34 per cent, but a wider package of measures worth £5,000 would result in an annual interest rate of 7.96 per cent over 10 years or 7.67 per cent over 25 years.
Click to expand...

Breaking: Green Deal Finance Company confirms 6.96 per cent interest rate - 25 Jan 2013 - News from BusinessGreen
 
That's disgraceful at a time when the UK government itself can borrow at 2%, so if they'd directly borrowed to fund this scheme even with a 1% markup to cover admin costs the rate could have been 3-3.5% (as I believe it was in Germany when they ran a similar scheme).

This highlights the absurd devotion of this government (new labour was as bad) to the concept of private finance to fund public projects rather than actually using state borrowing at much lower interest rates to fund it directly.
 
Just heard about a fantastic new energy scheme run by the government where you can borrow lots of money at mega interest rates and save lots of money on your energy bills.
Its called "The Green Spiel".
 
And here is another slant on the Green Deal................Have a look on the interent and in the Home Improvement sections of the newspapers at the number of companies that have suddenly appeared with Green Deal in their name....for them its like Solar all over again.

Its a simple marketing opportunity with the backing of the government. They can let the UK Government market and publicise the campaign...then they can piggy back on the legitimacy of the scheme.....while at the same time completely miss-selling a whole range of Green Deal products.....and will use their own in house fiance instead of Green Deal finance....

Take windows and doors for example. They will never ever make the Golden Rule. So why are Anglian, SaveHeat, Cold Seal ect ect all running adverts for windows under the Green Deal banner....

Simple. Becuase they can use the legitimacy of the scheme to sell windows....financed not by Green Deal but by their own finance...

And exactly the same will happen with the larger solar companies....They will use the Green Deal banner .....to sell solar. As both solar and windows will appear on Energy Performance Certs as recommendations...but with Organge NOT Green ticks...so where will the shortfall come from....Inhouse finance of course...

Watch this space.....
 
Just interested to see whether those that have registered as advisers/assessors are fully geared up for GD? I remember a while back someone said that they still had not seen the software to input the assessments yet - has this been resolved yet?
 
I can't help wondering if the Green Deal is intended to be a failure - given all the soft launches and other problems.

It was always going to be a hard sell - the government has been beating the drum that the austerity measures were the fault of careless lending and excessive borrowing. People are generally trying to pay off their debts rather than taking on new ones. Despite the fancy packaging the Green Deal is basically a long term loan, at a time when people are trying to reduce their debts.


Paying back via energy bills is just window dressing, adding additional bureaucracy and middle men who want their cut. The "golden rule" is just a little too much like previous "too good to be true" financial schemes, at a time when endowment, PPI, and other mis-selling schemes have reduced trust in such financial instruments to an all time low.

Linking the load to the house rather than the individual may have seemed at first glance like a good idea for those not certain whether they would stay in the house long enough to see the payback. However, this just adds to the concerns - would you be able to sell a house with loans attached? In practice, the seller would either need to pay of the loan earlier, or the seller might insist on paying a reduced price to take into account the outstanding loan. Either way, the seller ends no better off then if the loan was a personal one. If anything it pushes up the cost of buying and selling houses (yet another task for the surveyor) at a time when the housing market is in an all time slump!

And then despite all that, the loan rates turn out to be worse than existing commercial loans. Anyone wishing to undertake such energy measures would be far better off in extending their mortgage - both in terms of the interest rate, and early repayment charges.

Or have I missed something?

Matthew
 
There was a piece on GD BBC Breakfast this a.m. First I'd heard of it in the media (as I've given up on papers!).

Basically "say you buy a boiler for £2k. Pay back at £20pcm. Your £60 pcm fuel bill would "reduce" to £40pcm thus you're still paying £60pcm fuel bill/loan. Real benefits kick in as fuel prices rise. The "loan" is attached to the property, not the person, so if you move..."

I think that's what they were saying, I was still yawning.
 
telectrix said:
you call 6.9% " eye-watering"? . my bank have just offered me a personal loan at 26.9%. no that's a rip off. if i ever saw one.
Click to expand...

I think what the problem is will be getting charged £11,000 for some Glass wool in your loft or £55,000 for some solar panels then getting your electricity bills put up by a big % for the rest of your life to pay for it......wonder how many people will get nothing done and get charged money for it....


The Banks will have a keen investment interest in this no doubt, as will foreign owned electricity companies...


On a lighter note, SSE just put 12 wind turbines up behind my mothers house and E.on have just made public on a scheme that they have won permission for for up to 50 odd turbines......got a "welcome to our wonderful job creating innocent perfect great for the scenery" (aka local farmers pocket with big rent) scheme....


we got told 12 and that's it and within 8 days of the so called "commissioning" by siemens....another "scheme" announced....foreign companies making sure they ruin the UK for tourists and TV.....


OUT OF THE EU, FOREIGN COMPANIES OUT!
 
I have seen large wind turbines springing up on farms in 2's and 3's right next to the main roads and villages.....and I bet we are paying for them with free subsidies that only farmers get for millions of pounds......farmers get paid "subsidies" of hundreds of thousands of pounds a year for nothing.....they should be allowed to go bust if they can't manage a farm properly.....nobody else in this country gets that kind of money for free....
 
it's pretty nuts that the only way GD makes sense is via the cashback scheme, when GD was supposed to be replacing the existing grants schemes.

Why is it that only those who take out an extortionate loan are now entitled to a grant towards their energy saving installation?
 
Gavin A said:
it's pretty nuts that the only way GD makes sense is via the cashback scheme, when GD was supposed to be replacing the existing grants schemes.

Why is it that only those who take out an extortionate loan are now entitled to a grant towards their energy saving installation?
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7% interest plus setup fee plus annual fee - someone will be making a profit (presumably private sector rather than public sector).

However, where does the cost of the cashback scheme come from - the profits of the financial companies or the tax payer?

Matthew
 
Berneray said:
And here is another slant on the Green Deal................Have a look on the interent and in the Home Improvement sections of the newspapers at the number of companies that have suddenly appeared with Green Deal in their name....for them its like Solar all over again.

Its a simple marketing opportunity with the backing of the government. They can let the UK Government market and publicise the campaign...then they can piggy back on the legitimacy of the scheme.....while at the same time completely miss-selling a whole range of Green Deal products.....and will use their own in house fiance instead of Green Deal finance....

Take windows and doors for example. They will never ever make the Golden Rule. So why are Anglian, SaveHeat, Cold Seal ect ect all running adverts for windows under the Green Deal banner....

Simple. Becuase they can use the legitimacy of the scheme to sell windows....financed not by Green Deal but by their own finance...

And exactly the same will happen with the larger solar companies....They will use the Green Deal banner .....to sell solar. As both solar and windows will appear on Energy Performance Certs as recommendations...but with Organge NOT Green ticks...so where will the shortfall come from....Inhouse finance of course...

Watch this space.....
Click to expand...

Bait and Switch
 
mdovey said:
7% interest plus setup fee plus annual fee - someone will be making a profit (presumably private sector rather than public sector).

However, where does the cost of the cashback scheme come from - the profits of the financial companies or the tax payer?

Matthew
Click to expand...

AFAIK the cashback is funded directly by DECC, so it is all coming from the taxpayer. £40 million guaranteed, plus maybe more after all that is gone, from an overall launch incentive budget of £200 million.

The actual cashback amounts are only guaranteed for the early customers and the rates on offer may drop if take-up is high.
 
OK, so the tax payer pays for incentives to encourage people to take out loans from which the private financial sector benefits due to the lucrative rates, and high early payment penalty charges.

So we've basically moved from DECC subsidising the eco industry to DECC subsidising the financial industry?
 
that pretty much sums it up.

Along the way some energy reductions should occur to help meet government targets, but those repaying Green Deal loans are unlikely to benefit much from this until the loan is paid off, unless energy prices rise pretty steeply (which tbf they are going to).
 
Just seen Barking in an interview with BBC telling them you can get a front door on GD - You can't blame double glazing firms when that muppet is doing it himself!

I never thought I'd see the day when I'd stick up for double glazing firms
 
This paragraph sums it up nicely:

"Here are some of the hoops needed to be jumped: to enter the scheme, you need a green-deal assessor who works for a green-deal adviser organisation to undertake a green-deal assessment of your house, which will result in a green-deal advisory report. This will be lodged with a green-deal provider who will devise a green-deal plan. The work will then be undertaken by a green-deal installer to standards overseen by the new green-deal oversight body."

Simple, isn't it?

The green deal is just for fatcats, not consumers | John Vidal | Comment is free | The Guardian
 
Excerpts From Whinmoor's Excellent identified article:

"Behind the cosy language of reducing bills, keeping granny warm and helping the poor a massive bureaucracy has been erected, whose effect will be to keep out ordinary tradesman, co-ops and small renewable-energy companies. We are told this is to protect homeowners from sharks and cowboy builders, but it seems designed to ensure only large installation and energy companies profit from the anticipated market.".

"The green deal promises the opposite. We are being encouraged to borrow more money at well over the mortgage interest rate to help the banks profit more. The energy and climate mess we are in has been created by governments and energy companies encouraging profligacy and ignoring energy saving for years. We are now being asked to pick up the bill."

So "the Green Spiel" is bureaucratic, lends money at exhorbitant interest rates and is designed to benefit large companies / finance institutions in preference to the customer / excellent independent tradesman on this forum.
It is a big thumbs down for me.....:uhoh2: :nuke:
 
You know what? F*** it. Good luck to all those persevering with this sham of a Mean Deal but I really cannot be bothered jumping through a load of hoops to get on board a scheme that does next to nothing to benefit the homeowner. Debt is debt, whichever way you dress it up. Interest rates are ludicrous and the fundamental flaws in the scheme, which have been highlighted since day one, still appear to be there. Golder Rule my arse. The greater the divide between the work I do and the ball brained schemes of our dear government, the happier I will be.
 
whinmoor said:
This paragraph sums it up nicely:

"Here are some of the hoops needed to be jumped: to enter the scheme, you need a green-deal assessor who works for a green-deal adviser organisation to undertake a green-deal assessment of your house, which will result in a green-deal advisory report. This will be lodged with a green-deal provider who will devise a green-deal plan. The work will then be undertaken by a green-deal installer to standards overseen by the new green-deal oversight body."

Simple, isn't it?

The green deal is just for fatcats, not consumers | John Vidal | Comment is free | The Guardian
Click to expand...

We are GD installers and assessors, we are going the ECO route first maybe GD customers will come to us themselves
 
Good Thread, I just hope that someone wakes up in the government, they seem to be driving into a train crash !

The biggest Question is how does a new 2K boiler save £20 (1/3 of total energy bill) a month (the example used on the BBC) and how long will it take to pay off. Whats the average life of a boiler before they either fail or become inefficient. Its all to hypothetical.
 

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