1950s IM Power Relay Timer Help for Solenoid Valves

[marconi]

I am getting closer to identifying the timers. Sorry for delay. I mentor/tutor someone which has kept me busy.

 

[marconi]

murd-the-nerd: I am finding it difficult to follow your wiring diagrams, particularly at the various switches and timer bases. Your recent power versus time diagrams help but I do not have sufficient information even with them to be confident about naming a suitable substitute for T1 and T2. The best I can say confidently is that for T1 and T2 the connections at the top of the base connect to what we call 'volt-free' contacts but these may be either NC or NO - I reckon they are NO.

Do you want to send me the timer(s) you wish to replace to study? You did say T1 and T2 are the same so why not send me just the black Kiwi one?

Regards

Marconi

 

[marconi]

Or you could connect those neon lamps I mentioned. Connect a neon across the 2 and 10 terminals to indicated when the relay is energised. Also connect a neon between relay output T6 and neutral to indicate when their relay contacts are closed/open. Finally a neon between T5;and neutral. Then label up the lamps and film the sequence. Post as an attachment For me to look at.

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Hi Marconi

Sorry for the delay in my response. Seriously you have been a big help thank you! I am all the way in New Zealand so I think postage not really an option but thanks for the offer. To be honest I think we are really close. Yes T1 and T2 are the same, I have swapped and it still functions just fine.

I have tried to add switches to the diagram and fleshed out how important the Sensor is to the sequence. I haven't had a chance to use the Multimeter and validate this. But in practice (from me using the machine) this is how it works. I've colour coded the T1 and T2 so you can see the exact pin number that goes to the solenoid valves. This is becoming clearer each time I iterate

Heating ON and Auto Mode ON
To begin Auto sequence press Button LEFT & RIGHT at the same time. While held power is directed to T1 CLAMP and the Clamp Valve. Once the Sensor CLAMP is engaged you can depress the Buttons. Power is now directed to both T1 CLAMP and T2 INJECT via the Sensor. Once the timer runs out on T2 INJECT the Inject Valve is released. Once the timer runs out on T1 CLAMP the Clamp Valve is released. This trips the Sensor CLAMP and power is removed from both T1 CLAMP and T2 INJECT. The sequence is reset.

It actually seems that if I am happy to remove MANUAL mode a simple INTERVAL timer with the same pin config would work just fine:

At this stage what is confusing me the most is where the heck is the OUTPUT on these diagrams? This is an example of a power trigger but I see nothing out of pin 6... though in the non-power trigger version there appears to be... Maybe we are after a simple trigger version that allows voltage input to trigger?

https://www.macromatic.com/literature/catalog/time-delay-relays/?#page=29

Ohh and I am happy to open up the Timers and take pictures, but I'm not sure we'll learn anymore than what I have diagnosed with the multimeter.

I hope the new diagram makes better sense!

 

[marconi]

First response today. The switch outputs for the TR relays are the two sets of contacts 1, 4, 3 and 8,9, 11.

For the equipment’s relays T1 and T2 the switch output is 5,6 (and maybe 7).

The triggering for T1 and T2 is caused by the application of mains power across 2 and 10. When this happens the timer function of T1/T2 starts and results in the closing of the T1/T2 internal contacts connected between their 5 and 6 terminals. By applying mains Line to terminal 5 a device can be switched according to the timer function by connecting it to 6 and Neutral.

In summary for now 5, 6 on T1/T2 are not trigger inputs as they are for the TR series of relays you show function and terminal diagrams for.

If the timer function of T1/T2 is triggered by power applied to 2 and 10, then we could use one of the TR series and rejig the wiring to its base so that it performs just like a T2/T2. The switching - what you mean by output would done using one triplet 1, 4, 3 or 8, 9, 11 with a Line being connected to 3 or 11 and the load to 3 or 9 respectively.

What remains to be clarified is the timer function actually required so that the TR operates like the T1/T2. This is what we need to know next. I suggest the use of the neon lamps so the timer function can we watched. My earlier post refers.

Note well- as the panel is currently wired you cannot use any of the TR relays because your panel uses 5 and 6 as contacts to switch mains power whereas the TR relays uses them as input start timer function triggers.

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Ahh so it appears the wiring on these is super weird having the relay output on 6! So far I haven't seen a single timer that has that. They always appear as gate, start, reset type functions. And from your notes above does that mean I wire the relay output (solenoid valve in my case) to 3 or 9 as highlighted below on a few timer variations. This timer does appear to accept power to 5 as well. Link here:

8 & 11 PIN PLUG IN MULTI VOLTAGE, MULTI TIME RANGE, MULTI FUNCTION TIMERS - Foxtam Controls (en-GB)

8 & 11 pin plug in versions of our multi “everything” timers. Available in either 8 or 11 pin SPCO or as an 11 pin DPCO. A selector switch is provided to select eight different time ranges from 0.1 sec-10 days, fine time selection on a selected range is then achieved via a percentage potentiometer.

www.foxtamcontrols.co.uk

If you confirm above then I might finally understand these diagrams

 

[marconi]

Small typo corrected in:

'Note well- as the panel is currently wired you cannot use any of the TR relays because your panel uses 5 and 6 as contacts to switch mains power whereas the T1/T2 relays uses them as input start timer function triggers'.

 

[marconi]

Ahh so it appears the wiring on these is super weird having the relay output on 6! So far I haven't seen a single timer that has that. They always appear as gate, start, reset type functions. And from your notes above does that mean I wire the relay output (solenoid valve in my case) to 3 or 9 as highlighted below on a few timer variations. This timer does appear to accept power to 5 as well. Link here:

8 & 11 PIN PLUG IN MULTI VOLTAGE, MULTI TIME RANGE, MULTI FUNCTION TIMERS - Foxtam Controls (en-GB)

8 & 11 pin plug in versions of our multi “everything” timers. Available in either 8 or 11 pin SPCO or as an 11 pin DPCO. A selector switch is provided to select eight different time ranges from 0.1 sec-10 days, fine time selection on a selected range is then achieved via a percentage potentiometer.

www.foxtamcontrols.co.uk

View attachment 96189

If you confirm above then I might finally understand these diagrams

Yes - on the 11 pin there is a set of NO contacts between terminal 1 and the circled in yellow terminals which could be used to control power to the clamp and solenoid. Your application relies on power being applied to 2 and 10 to start the timing function which determines how/when these contacts close and open. As I said we can rewire the base to use these NO contacts.

Finding a suitable replacement relay is not the current main effort - that can be done easily. What we need to confirm is what timer function is required when power is applied to 2 and 10. eg: Interval, delay on........

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Great, then I think we've done it pretty much!

Changes would be:

1. Change wiring as per 'After' diagram below if sticking with an 11pin timer
2. Use a timer that starts with power input to 2 and 10
3. Use an Interval type timer as my system continues power to input 2 past the timer ending (Interval was the only type I could see that lined up with this). I've updated the chart to represent what I'm seeing with the multimeter and ignoring 5. The flicker I eluded to before is likely the change from button power input to clamp sensor power input. And this is likely to not influence the timer as power still continuously supplied.
4. Don't mess with any gate or start inputs. You can see in the T1 Clamp wiring it is simply folding over power to both 5 and 2 at the same time. So there really is no need for it and all the modern timers I've found need a signal input, not continuous power to 5.

From my research this is actually far more common on 8pin timers. And they are about half the price. So there could be an argument to change the 11pin to an 8pin.

Example timing chart for Interval on an 8 pin:

 

[marconi]

I will study what you have said and then reply.

 

[marconi]

Your after wiring diagram needs a wire from the relay base 11 to the connector block 4 as shown in my attachment.

If you buy a couple of power (230V ac) initiated interval timers you can replace T1 and T2. If you are not sure send me a link to the ones you intend to buy and I will check they are suitable. Obviously they need to have suitable interval time range. The contacts only carry the small current to operate clamp and inject actuators. Up to you whether to go for 8 pin, 11 pin or din rail ones. Happy to check a photo before you power on should you want me to.

Please keep me informed on progress and DO NOT WORK on live equipment.


note: For power initiated interval timer if applied power goes off then interval output ends at same time.

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Brilliant! I thought the timer power actually supplied the output power. How silly of me. But according to your diagram each Relay in the Timer can have its own power and the Timer simply switches the NC & NO contacts. So you could actually have a set up like this and mix voltages and all sorts:

This has helped me greatly as I completely missed I need to supply power to the contacts! Thanks so much

I will get on to ordering some Interval Timers that function with Power ON and report back how it goes

 

[murd_the_nerd]

And I'm thinking of going for something like this. The 8pins really are more geared to the Power On Interval style and the 11pin options are less common and expensive! The 8pin option below looks like it will do the job just fine One caution might be the 3A vs 6A on current Timers, is that something I should worry about? It is just supplying voltage to a solenoid valve, I can't imagine it drawing a huge amount of power.

Be thankful you don't live the next stop to Antarctica, things are hard to come by down here! The 8pin timer is in stock in Australia so quicker postage. I can get unbranded ones for $10-15 from aliexpress but figure I should get the real deal to be safe and postage can be up to a month.

AT8N
NZD$58

https://nz.element14.com/autonics/at8n-24-240/multi-function-timer-0-05sec-100hr/dp/1736815

Spec sheet:

https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2010027.pdf

And the much more expensive 11pin option (and I'm sure others too):

TD-78121
NZD$216

TD-78121

Multifunction Timer, 240VAC,

www.galco.com

Great to be at this stage of the process and purchasing new Timers

 

[marconi]

I will check the specifications you sent me today.

 

[marconi]

The relay you have selected is suitable. Order AT8N . (Do not order AT8N1 or AT8N2 ).

One they have arrived we need to set up the timer range and timer mode for I = Interval operation.

You will require two 8 pin bases.

Study the connection diagram carefully for the AT8N so that you place the wires correctly to the 8 pin base.

The current switching capacity of this timer relay is satisfactory for your loads.

Also check by inspection and then with your meter on low ohms range that all items of the machine which are made of metal are indeed connected together and to the earth pin of the plug.

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Legend! I have bought the timers and bases. Will let you know how I get on

 

[marconi]

Greetings from London. I am drinking a New Zealand white wine which jogged my memory about your timers. Any news Sir?

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Nice one and good memory! I have received the new timers and bases. But unfortunately the family household I have my machine stored at came down with Covid so I haven't had a chance to do the wiring and install yet. Hoping to get over there in the next few weeks. Will keep you posted

 

[murd_the_nerd]

Hi Marconi. I finally had a chance to wire in the new timers today I was in a bit of a rush and may have got the + & - the wrong way around. The heater wouldn't start so there is an issue. I either need to force the sequence change on the machine or the wiring is not letting it turn on. There is a relay in series with the two timers (- black wires) that allows the heater to start. I ran out of time to trouble fix.

I would appreciate if you could let me know whether switching the + & - between timer pins 2 and 7 would change anything? It seems just for DC it is wired the other way. Everything else appears fine at first glance...

New wiring:

New vs Old timers:

Timers and relay wiring new vs old:

Wiring diagram from the timer manual:

 

[marconi]

I will study but I regret it will not be right now. I will look as soon as I can later today or this time tomorrow.

M