Bunched cables lighting circuit

[11kstanton]

Hi all

I carried out a pir today (eicr) and there were 3 lighting circuits all bunched with 3 cables in each of them so totalling 9 cables over 3 mcbs seems extreme. Does each lighting circuit need to be on its own separate mcb, and wondering what code this would be if any? There is no spare ways in DB and is already a 14way,

your thoughts appreciated

 

[matt.smallbone]

Hi, I had this problem and spoke to the powers that be at my firm, according to them it depends on the load of the combined cables, but only two together is acceptable, they said that its probably a C3 as improvement is recommended but if there is any sign of overheating or a big load being drawn through the cable then it's a C2 as there is a sign of danger present. Hope this helps!!

 

[11kstanton]

Thanks, so looks like they will have to get a new DB installed as there isn't any space to move 2 out of the 9 cables to allow it to be max 2 cables per MCB. If it is max 2 cables for these lighting circuits ill probably stick it on the cert as a c 2 as they are going to have to do something to get it sorted

 

[Des 56]

Is the rating of the mcb correct with regard the smallest sized conductor ?

If this connection at the mcb was situated in an accessible junctoin box,would you have concern ?

Please state the regulation number that gives a maximum of 2 cables per mcb ? ( I suppose a ring final with a spur off the mains has no doubt been installed incorrectly)

 

[Octopus]

What's the load on each MCB?

 

[Guest55]

C2 ??
good grief.

 

[matt.smallbone]

That's true actually, if it was an accessible joint I wouldn't have the same concern! And as far as I was aware it was a guideline set by the NICEIC that anything over two cable on a lighting MCB is deemed to be poor practise and if possible the circuits should be split on to separate MCB's.
And with regards to the spur from a ring in a consumer unit, that is a predicted method of connection again where possible as the joint or connection can be seen at the consumer unit and your not hinting for the connection, not always practical I know!!

 

[Octopus]

That's true actually, if it was an accessible joint I wouldn't have the same concern! And as far as I was aware it was a guideline set by the NICEIC that anything over two cable on a lighting MCB is deemed to be poor practise and if possible the circuits should be split on to separate MCB's.
And with regards to the spur from a ring in a consumer unit, that is a predicted method of connection again where possible as the joint or connection can be seen at the consumer unit and your not hinting for the connection, not always practical I know!!

Since when did they write the rules?

 

[Silly Sausage]

Thanks, so looks like they will have to get a new DB installed as there isn't any space to move 2 out of the 9 cables to allow it to be max 2 cables per MCB. If it is max 2 cables for these lighting circuits ill probably stick it on the cert as a c 2 as they are going to have to do something to get it sorted

I hope the person ordering the Report gets a second opinion.
Can't see them being very happy about having to shell out for a (totally unnecessary) 16 way DB change!!!

 

[matt.smallbone]

They don't write the rules at all, but if that's advice they are giving, then they ultimately allow my employer to certificate work. So they have a pretty big input……

 

[monkeyelectric]

I can't see a problem as long as the ocpd is rated for the ccc of the smallest cable and volt drop

 

[Des 56]

matt,the Niceic can drown in a sea of its own rules for all I care about those criminals

However this is a forum that encompasses all the IET has to suggest on electrical installation

Confusion can be caused by people getting advise for installation practices mixed up with the garbled opinions issued by the Niceic for rules for its own members,instead of IEE actual regulation which should be the guide

The Niceic sometimes speak with forked tongue

 

[D Skelton]

C2 ??
good grief.

I'd have gone C1 definitely! Get the fire brigade in NOW!!!

 

[D Skelton]

I carried out a pir today

Does each lighting circuit need to be on its own separate mcb

I mean no disrespect but judging by these questions you are not competent enough to be carrying out EICRs

 

[Guest55]

the lateral thinkers among us would pull all those cables into the ceiling void , join them in JB's , and have only 1 cable drop down to each fuse / mcb.

its also known as cheating ;-)

 

[matt.smallbone]

Des, I can now see the error of my ways, that's actually very true as the IEE has no regulation at all on the amount of cables in a breaker, only the suitability of the protective device for the cables. I take it back and apologise for my naff advice!!
Ill bare that in mind for future posts!!!
So actually there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with the cables in the breaker as long as they are adequately protected for the smallest CSA cable.

 

[11kstanton]

Judging by your comment your no help at all, by judging from my comment you can decide on how competent I am, I don't think so mate, just trying to clear up an area that I hadn't come across before when issuing a eicr, wanted to get it right, I'm not looking to install a new DB just to get some extra money out of the job, just making sure I issue them with the right info and thank to all who have put in some helpful comments

 

[11kstanton]

Last comment was for d Skelton, posting on my phone so not sure how to quote

 

[kingeri]

Judging by your comment your no help at all, by judging from my comment you can decide on how competent I am, I don't think so mate, just trying to clear up an area that I hadn't come across before when issuing a eicr, wanted to get it right, I'm not looking to install a new DB just to get some extra money out of the job, just making sure I issue them with the right info and thank to all who have put in some helpful comments

I tend to agree with Mr Skelton on this one. These are questions I'd expect from an apprentice, not someone who should be fully qualified and, more importantly, very experienced in installation work to have moved on to doing EICRs.

And please don't spit your dummy out, this is a forum, and in the true spirit of a forum, this is just my opinion!

 

[D Skelton]

I wasn't trying to be helpful I was merely stating a fact. If you are contemplating a C2 for more than two cables in an OCPD then IMHO you are not competent enough to be carrying out EICRs. It may sound harsh but the notion that any old Joe (not saying that you are one) can carry out an EICR is deluded. Inspection and testing requires a lot of experience and an in depth knowledge of the subject and like I said, judging purely by your OP, these are skills you don't have. I may be wrong, hell we've all been guilty of asking stupid questions (myself included), but this is not something that someone who is carrying out such a task should be asking.

 

[11kstanton]

As I wouldn't install it like this and know its not to be installed like this but questioned wether it would actually be causing any real danger and if I needed to do anything about it, this is why I have put the question out there on this forum, codings on eicr's are to a degree with certain things down to the discretion, common sense and knowledge/experience of the inspector, now if I haven't got the correct knowledge or experience on if this should be brought up on an eicr report then the best thing to do is get a second opinion

 

[D Skelton]

As I wouldn't install it like this and know its not to be installed like this

Why can't it be installed like this? In centrally supplied systems I have had five or six conductors in one OCPD. Depending on their csa I would advise use of an appropriately sized ferrule to ensure a sound connection but done correctly there is nothing wrong with it.

if I haven't got the correct knowledge or experience on if this should be brought up on an eicr report then the best thing to do is get a second opinion

If you haven't got the correct knowledge or experience you shouldn't be carrying out EICRs. There is never anything wrong with second opinions, but asking others to do your job for you is another thing.

 

[Octopus]

I do wonder how many cables were rammed into each 3036 fuse board "way"!!

 

[ian.settle1]

That's true actually, if it was an accessible joint I wouldn't have the same concern! And as far as I was aware it was a guideline set by the NICEIC that anything over two cable on a lighting MCB is deemed to be poor practise and if possible the circuits should be split on to separate MCB's.
And with regards to the spur from a ring in a consumer unit, that is a predicted method of connection again where possible as the joint or connection can be seen at the consumer unit and your not hinting for the connection, not always practical I know!!

The IET write the regulations not the NICEIC as they try to make everyone think.

 

[SirKit Breaker]

the lateral thinkers among us would pull all those cables into the ceiling void , join them in JB's , and have only 1 cable drop down to each fuse / mcb.

its also known as cheating ;-)

And also known as.............wait for it..........................COMMON SENSE!:banghead:

 

[11kstanton]

As I wouldn't install it like this and know its not to be installed like this

Why can't it be installed like this? In centrally supplied systems I have had five or six conductors in one OCPD. Depending on their csa I would advise use of an appropriately sized ferrule to ensure a sound connection but done correctly there is nothing wrong with it.

if I haven't got the correct knowledge or experience on if this should be brought up on an eicr report then the best thing to do is get a second opinion

If you haven't got the correct knowledge or experience you shouldn't be carrying out EICRs. There is never anything wrong with second opinions, but asking others to do your job for you is another thing.

I'm not asking anyone to do my job for me there has been a mixed view on wether it deserves a code or not on this forum and from colleagues, friends, Everyone is going to come across new scenarios throughout there career that they may not have faced on an eicr meaning you will not have the knowledge or the experience

 

[D Skelton]

I'm not asking anyone to do my job for me

Yes you were, you asked "Does each lighting circuit need to be on its own separate mcb?"

Asking a second opinion however would have gone something like this; "I've come across an MCB with three seperate cables in it on an EICR, I haven't coded it because I cannot see any danger present but was wondering what your thoughts were"

there has been a mixed view on wether it deserves a code or not on this forum and from colleagues, friends

Which just goes to show how many misinformed 'electricians' there are out there.

 

[11kstanton]

I'm not asking anyone to do my job for me

Yes you were, you asked "Does each lighting circuit need to be on its own separate mcb?"

Asking a second opinion however would have gone something like this; "I've come across an MCB with three seperate cables in it on an EICR, I haven't coded it because I cannot see any danger present but was wondering what your thoughts were"

there has been a mixed view on wether it deserves a code or not on this forum and from colleagues, friends

Which just goes to show how many misinformed 'electricians' there are out there.

No I defo wasn't asking anyone to do the job for me, research is part of doing your own job, and this is a bit of Internet research, now your entitled to your opinion, wether someone takes it on board or not is another thing. So thanks for the input and good night!

 

[D Skelton]

Like kingeri said, there's no need to spit your dummy out, I'm just stating the obvious. Until I see evidence that you have the necessary experience to conduct the type of work you're doing I will naturally judge you by the first post of yours I see.

Again, if this is shown to me I'll be more than happy to eat humble pie but the facts so far are that you are asking the sort of really basic question you'd normally expect from a Electrical Trainee.