The tails and earthing conductor are the customers/your responsibility, the DNO's won't change them.

I recently completed a 1st fix re-wire where as part of the job I had changed some dusty old 10mm tails for a nice new set of 25mm brown and blues. In between then and returning for the 2nd fix, the DNO had sent an engineer to upgrade the meter. To my surprise, I returned to find my new shiny copper tails had disappeared, only to have been replaced by a pair of red and black 16mm tails supplying from a BS88 100A fuse.
 
They were from a Henley block bridging between the meter into the new CU.
 

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I recently completed a 1st fix re-wire where as part of the job I had changed some dusty old 10mm tails for a nice new set of 25mm brown and blues. In between then and returning for the 2nd fix, the DNO had sent an engineer to upgrade the meter. To my surprise, I returned to find my new shiny copper tails had disappeared, only to have been replaced by a pair of red and black 16mm tails supplying from a BS88 100A fuse.

I've never known any DNO engineer to get anywhere near touching a consumer unit (they are not allowed to). I would even consider asking all who has access to this mains equipment if they know who has "nicked" your tails.

On the subject of 16.00mm or 25.00mm tails. The EDF engineers I "come across" here in West Cornwall will not use 25mm tails at all! (Only 16's) Regardless that I have installed 25's into my c/u.
 
I recently completed a 1st fix re-wire where as part of the job I had changed some dusty old 10mm tails for a nice new set of 25mm brown and blues. In between then and returning for the 2nd fix, the DNO had sent an engineer to upgrade the meter. To my surprise, I returned to find my new shiny copper tails had disappeared, only to have been replaced by a pair of red and black 16mm tails supplying from a BS88 100A fuse.

Are you saying you changed the tails from the DNO fuse to the meter?
 
Would using 16mm² tails instead of 25mm² limit the Ze to any apreciable amount?
 
Are you saying you changed the tails from the DNO fuse to the meter?

No Sir, correct me if I'm wrong, but I am of the opinion that everything up to the distributor's meter is within their own jurisdiction? The tails I'm referring to were connected directly into the CU main switch via a Henley block. I was a tad perplexed as to why they changed them, but never chased it up as I got very drunk that night and forgot about it until now.
 
perform an IR test between the earth an neutral bar (ensure the main earthing conductor has been disconnected)

this is likely to be done so that when you install RCD's or RCBO's with your new CU then your not likely to get any nasty susrprises with the RCD's tripping all the time due to a previous issue that is irrelelevant to your new CU change

Never knew that !!!! ?? ...how come it dont damage anything then ?
 
Really interesting thread. There is alot of mixed opinion on what you are responsible for with regards CU changes/upgrades.

I would be interested to know peoples opinions on the following scenario...

What if you carry out a CU change and there is a N-E fault that causes the RCD to trip. The fault is on the downstairs ring but due to the way it was wired years ago (not a perfect ring), lots of additions and spurs, possible interconnections, junction box minefield - it is not easy to pinpoint the damaged leg of cable just by splitting the ring etc without taking up floor boards and tracing the cables. You manage to narrow it down to the kitchen which was wired by a kitchen fitter when the kitchen was done 12 months ago. Cables buried. The RCD holds when two kitchen sockets are dead/removed from the ring so it seems the fault is a cable spurring to these from the ring final.
You explain to the customer the fault, remind her that you did say there would be fault finding work as you carried out some pre board change IR tests. Customer isnt happy that 2 sockets dont work in her kitchen, nor is she keen to have a new cable installed to over come the problem. Her kitchen is nice and new and those sockets were working fine before I installed the new board. She doesnt want trunking or walls chased to install a replacement cable. You remind her that you are working to regs and that she agreed to the board change because it complys and makes the whole installation a lot safer.

I have read in this thread of fellow sparks saying that in the long run they have improved the safety of the overall installation by upgrading the CU. The individual wiring of every circuit does not become their responsibility. All the other circuits in this scenario are now RCD protected. The fault remains on the ring but the customer doesnt want her two kitchen sockets left out of service, regs or no regs. In order to keep the customer happy and get paid, how would you resolve the situation?
 
Agreed. But is it acceptable to notify the customer that the ring would therefore not be RCD protected, configure the CU, leave the ring unprotected and make a note on the certificate of the fault, reason for outcome and advise the fault needs to be rectified in the near future??
 
Well Boberto, it's probably not what you want to hear, but, 'horse, stable door & bolt' comes to mind!
I have been 'caught' in this situation myself on more than one occasion, therefor I carry out some 'basic prelimary' tests before completely dismantling and removing the existing consumer unit(s).
If one discovers any 'problems' that cannot be easily overcomed, or the customer is not in agreement with the possible extent of the work and/or price involved, then one can walk away from the job. You can make a report and statement that you had provided the householder with all the relevant information (and report) and quote for the remedial works needed, but they had declined.

I'm sorry that this doesn't help you with your current problem, but it could be the way for the future?
 
Agreed. But is it acceptable to notify the customer that the ring would therefore not be RCD protected, configure the CU, leave the ring unprotected and make a note on the certificate of the fault, reason for outcome and advise the fault needs to be rectified in the near future??


How about asking your customer to see the certificate that the kitchen fitters gave her?
 
Just to clarify. Its not a situation I am in now. I experienced it in the past. Just wondering what your opinions were and where we stand as competent people if we were to leave the Ring unprotected on the new board?
 
To be honest most sparks now, after the extensive use of RCDs in domestic installation will not, or should not be faced with this now. I'm sure in the beginning a few sparks were caught out like this but now we are 4 yrs down the line with extensive RCD protection, and most guys will test for this as was posted above.

But for your hypothetical question I think I would split the ring into radials, and give the at least one of those radials RCD protection, and the other one would be marked down on the EIC under "comments on existing installation" and quote the reg your deviating from and leave it on it's own. I would prove though that it did disconnect within the 0.4secs by doing the Zs and that would be me.
 
To be honest most sparks now, after the extensive use of RCDs in domestic installation will not, or should not be faced with this now. I'm sure in the beginning a few sparks were caught out like this but now we are 4 yrs down the line with extensive RCD protection, and most guys will test for this as was posted above.

But for your hypothetical question I think I would split the ring into radials, and give the at least one of those radials RCD protection, and the other one would be marked down on the EIC under "comments on existing installation" and quote the reg your deviating from and leave it on it's own. I would prove though that it did disconnect within the 0.4secs by doing the Zs and that would be me.

+1 to this solution.

Historically, whenever my pre-change IR tests have shown poor results and I advise the client, they usually think I'm making up crap just to bloat the quote, and the job gets lost. I should brush up on my people skills...
 
+1 to this solution.

Historically, whenever my pre-change IR tests have shown poor results and I advise the client, they usually think I'm making up crap just to bloat the quote, and the job gets lost. I should brush up on my people skills...

Tell them to get a 2nd opinion. Better that, even if you lose the job, than creating an 'enemy'.
You know how the saying goes? "Do a good job and 5 people hear about it! Do a bad job and 50 people hear about it!" ;-)
 
When you guys go around to see a CU change and you carry out the test to check the installation before quoting work, do you have the customer disconnect all appliances when doing the IR tests checking for connections between L+N, as i have had problems with shorts showing on circuits because of certain items plugged in?
 
Must be things plugged in somewhere perhaps L&N - E would be a good option here,ive had a borrowed neutral circuit recently on a board upgrade.
 
Yeah, we'll checking for borrowed neutrals is easy enough but checking interconnections on ring finals with IR tests and get bad readings from plugged in items! Is a ball ache, and asking customer to unplug everything is equally a ballache! But in long run could save hrs!

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, we'll checking for borrowed neutrals is easy enough but checking interconnections on ring finals with IR tests and get bad readings from plugged in items! Is a ball ache, and asking customer to unplug everything is equally a ballache! But in long run could save hrs!
 
Hi Jason,

Thanks for the information on CU changes. I have been asked by a mate to look at his electrics. Situation is: a CU has been moved and was hanging off the wall, all circuits bar the boiler circuits removed. Flat been renovated and all cables from the existing circuits cut and left sticking out the floor boards. Owner wants all cables extended and put back into the existing CU - which has no RCDs on it. Flat has been plastered / painted and he doesn't want any damage to plasterboard or paintwork.

Would you extend these cables in junction boxes?

Would you recommend a new CU? - this one doesn't have RCD protection on any of the circuits...
 
Hi Jason,

Thanks for the information on CU changes. I have been asked by a mate to look at his electrics. Situation is: a CU has been moved and was hanging off the wall, all circuits bar the boiler circuits removed. Flat been renovated and all cables from the existing circuits cut and left sticking out the floor boards. Owner wants all cables extended and put back into the existing CU - which has no RCDs on it. Flat has been plastered / painted and he doesn't want any damage to plasterboard or paintwork.

Would you extend these cables in junction boxes?

Would you recommend a new CU? - this one doesn't have RCD protection on any of the circuits...

New CU is the only way and how many cables need extending?
 
New CU is the only way and how many cables need extending?

Thanks. All existing circuits need to be extended (around 12 cables). The cables have been cut off, none are labelled up so it's difficult to check what cables are for what circuit.

To check for a ring circuit I tried pairing up the cables one at a time and checking for continuity between lives but found none. Bit stuck..
 
In this instance i would take a socket off for instance and do a backward continuity test,so R1 & R2 test back to the board just to help indentify or indicate circuit/s.Have had to do simliar,didnt take much longer than a standard test anyway as i dont take whats written on old boards as gospel only an indication of what it may or may not supply.Having a helping hand to do the running about would cut the time down a bit.
 
Always done a full EIC stating that no new circuits or points have been installed, test results given for existing circuits are for information only.
I was told a couple of years ago by my area engineer that this was wrong, and i should not include test results for circuits I had not installed.
The next year the same area engineer asked why I had not included test results on an EIC and advised to take a look at the ESC guidance notes. I had also issued a full PIR, as not fully testing the existing install just feels wrong.
 
In this instance i would take a socket off for instance and do a backward continuity test,so R1 & R2 test back to the board just to help indentify or indicate circuit/s.Have had to do simliar,didnt take much longer than a standard test anyway as i dont take whats written on old boards as gospel only an indication of what it may or may not supply.Having a helping hand to do the running about would cut the time down a bit.

Thanks, i did that and got readings of between 0.85 - 2.75ohms on all sockets connected to that ring -which is pretty high don't you think? Might be time to calibrate the fluke i bought recently!
 
exceptionally helpful post as this is the thing that i am going to do as my first employment my sibling has two Ccus one part stack one wylex fuseboard and it was carried out by a purported electrical technician. the new ccu is part stack half secured half not.
 
Just seen this interesting thread, and have in the past put and rcd board in and found out their is a nicked neutral in up/down lighting circuit!
Also have had faults on some bodged in ringmain that trips rcd out, and other than taking it out and putting it on its own non-rcd breaker, because if the house is nicely decorated/laminate floors the client dont want to know!
I have always come to the conclusion, if i have upgraded the earthing ,fitted a new board with rcd protection, normally replacing an old rewirable, even if their is one circuit that isnt rcd protected , its still safer/ better than when i started.
But have always worried, a little, as always assumed that when you fitted a new board, any circuit that you connect to said board is your problem , but have never been sure legality wise, plus if the client dont want the upheavel potentiallly , or normally to pay you extra for fault finding, what ultimatly can you do?
 
That's why you test the installation before removing the old board, so that you can get the faults sorted before replacing it.
 
Chaps,

After reading several posts, threads etc about CU changes and what you are responsible for, i thought i would clear a few things up for those that are unsure.

Now, this affects anyone changing a CU to bring an installation up the current standard, which of course is BS7671 2008.

Now, the following are RECOMMENDATIONS and not set it stone, but its what i normally try and do, which can save a lot of time and trouble.

If you have been asked to price and change a CU, for whatever reason, you should ALWAYS carry out a site survey before any costs are discussed.

Now, once onsite consider carrying out the following:

1- Main Earth Bonding.

i) Is main earthing present?
ii) If so, is it adequate?
iii) IF not include this in your quote as this MUST be up to current standards.

2 - Visual Inspection

i) How old does the installation look?
ii) Are there broken accessories?
iii) Is there evidence of any additions or alterations, good or bad?
iv) Ask the client of any known issues or problems in the past.

3 - Quick Basic Check & Tests

i) If convenient, isolate supply and take off the CU cover
ii) Evidence of additions or alterations?
iii) Carry out IR test between Earthing bar & Neutral bar at 250V


If everything looks ok then you are good to go, BUT, whatever happens, make sure you draw up some form of basic contract that highlights the fact that the quote does not include putting anything un-forseen right, and that if there are problems found during or after, then they may need to be rectified at additional cost.

Now, if there are issues with an installation that are not considered unsafe, although not to current BS, (unearthed lighting circuits excluded), you ARE NOT generally required to put these right, although they should be noted on the cert in the correct box.

4 - Certification.

There is a little confusion about what cert should be issued, of course, after a PIR is carried out.

The way i do it is, if i do a CU Change a full installation cert is issued, noting any deviations.

On the same cert any circuit additions or alterations can also be noted, so there is no need to write out multiples.

If you are just altering circuits with no CU change, then a separate minor works must be issued for each circuit altered.



Also, once you have changed a CU, carried out all the tests, you DO NOT become responsible for the entire installation - just the CU change.

This must be noted on the cert & periodic inspection label that MUST be fitted after the change with the words - "CU CHANGE ONLY".

Hope that helps, and if there any E&O's then let me know.

Good luck - As most CU changes need it :D


Thanks jason brilliant post. My only problem is you would hope everyone on here trading would already do this as to be deemed competent at there job
 
Thanks jason brilliant post. My only problem is you would hope everyone on here trading would already do this as to be deemed competent at there job
just my two cents but i would use an electrical installation condition report rather than installation cert or it looks like you installed it
 

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