Earth terminated outside.

[Buzz1980]

Hi All

Seen this on a few jobs now where they have on the Downlight fittings where the CPC is terminated outside the enclosure of the Downlight due to not having a earth connection inside. Does anyone know the reg that states that this is not permitted and earth connections should be inside enclosure. As on a EICR I would usually put down C3 but if you look at the Downlight connection side, the earth cable usually comes out the terminal enclosure single insulated and then connected on the side of the Downlight. Will look forward to responses cheers

 

[James]

The earth lead between enclosure and fitting is part of the fitting and therefore subject to type testing and ce certification.
fixed wiring ends at the termination point so no code, but if you want to it could be put in the notes.

 

[Buzz1980]

Thanks for the response . So no code should be put down for earth of a T&E cable outside of the Downlight fitting enclosure ?

 

[westward10]

No the cpc of a T&E cable requires enclosure.

 

[Buzz1980]

Ok that’s great thank you

 

[davesparks]

How are they connected? If the connection is good then I would say no code.

Remember an EICR is not the same as initial verification, you are not assessing absolute compliance with bs7671.

If the connection is sound then it is neither a C1 or C2.

That leaves C3 as the only possibility, so what improvent for safety could be recommended?

 

[davesparks]

No the cpc of a T&E cable requires enclosure.

Does it?
The way I read 526.8 and 526.5 is that live and PEN conductors must be enclosed. The CPC would be excluded from that requirement.

 

[Buzz1980]

Connections are good they are the LAP fittings where they don’t have a earth connection so they have neatly termed the L&N of the T&E folded the CPC back outside of the term box and then installed connector block and wago on some cases. This is just directly outside of enclosure then taped the earth connection back on to the T&E ?

 

[Buzz1980]

Does it?
The way I read 526.8 and 526.5 is that live and PEN conductors must be enclosed. The CPC would be excluded from that requirement.

That is my thinking behind that reg, that all live conductors required to be enclosed, so the CPC won’t be require to be enclosed ?

 

[davesparks]

Connections are good they are the LAP fittings where they don’t have a earth connection so they have neatly termed the L&N of the T&E folded the CPC back outside of the term box and then installed connector block and wago on some cases. This is just directly outside of enclosure then taped the earth connection back on to the T&E ?

My personal opinion, others will disagree, is that I wouldn't code that as long as the live conductors are properly enclosed.

 

[littlespark]

Looking at the image, the cpc is indeed enclosed, but there is a pigtail coming out which is part of the fitting.
To me, that's not part of the fixed wiring, so not part of the EICR.
Not a code as such, but could be mentioned in the notes.

Be different if the cpc was not connected at all, unenclosed connectors, etc, which is how we find a lot of downlights put in by diy dodgers.

 

[ipf]

IT looks pretty certain that in those attached photos there is an earth connection in the unit.
If there isn't there is certainly scope for putting one in the terminal enclosure.
If they are the ones being tested, you'd have to remove the earth wire from the enclosure for it to be terminated it outside.

 

[brianmoooore]

Connections are good they are the LAP fittings where they don’t have a earth connection so they have neatly termed the L&N of the T&E folded the CPC back outside of the term box and then installed connector block and wago on some cases. This is just directly outside of enclosure then taped the earth connection back on to the T&E ?

Someone has added an earth connection to a double insulated fitting?

 

[Buzz1980]

Yeah that’s correct but my thinking would be the same for T&E earth connection outside of enclosure wouldn’t need a code against it as the reg states live conductors only so earth connections can be outside enclosure and no enclosure required is that correct ?

 

[ipf]

Someone has added an earth connection to a double insulated fitting?

No, the connectors are taped to the cable.

 

[loz2754]

The light pictured above is a Class I fitting and requires an earth connection.
Regarding the need to enclose CPC/earth terminations, think about an earthing block at the origin...

 

[Buzz1980]

The photo was an example of where the earth of the fitting is connected to side of fitting and single insulated cable only ?

 

[ipf]

Yeah that’s correct but my thinking would be the same for T&E earth connection outside of enclosure wouldn’t need a code against it as the reg states live conductors only so earth connections can be outside enclosure and no enclosure required is that correct ?

A bit like a joint box with not enough terminals....so the earths are connected externally? Not ideal, but reg wise I'm not sure.

 

[brianmoooore]

Right, I'm totally confused! Pics show a Class 1 fitting with a pigtail from the connection box to the metal of the can. Presumably there's a 3 pole terminal block inside the connector enclosure to connect L, N and earth from the T&E.
What's the problem?

 

[loz2754]

Would have been better if you'd shown a pic of the actual situation you're concerned about, and not a generic photo perhaps? Then we'd be able to give a more relevant opinion.