Discuss ECS, NICEIC and JIB farce in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Tell me what you think of this guys...

i undertook a health and safety course in order to obtain an ECS card which as you may know is needed by many building sites these days. I got 98%. I sent off for my card the other day and paid the £36 or so for it.

Now i am the director of an electrical contracting firm, i have City and Guilds 2360 parts 1 and 2 in which i got distinctions, City and guilds 2391, 16th edition regs and 17th edtion regs, and i am also the NICEIC priciple duty holder and qualifying supervisor and have been so ever since we were accepted as a fully approved comapny by the NICEIC some ten years ago.

i put all this information on the ECS card application form.

today a got the card and guess what.. it has 'trainee' on it!!

obviously i contact the JIB and told them that there must be some mistake. the lady on the end of the phone asked about my qualifications which i listed. she said do you have an NVQ level 3 to which i replied no as when i did my City and guilds courses NVQ did not exist and had not even been though of. she said, well that why then. if you havent got that then in our vieww you are not more than a trainee. i said, but ive been an NICEIC QS for over ten years! they do not seem to have a problem with it and they inspect me personally every year. she said it makes no difference as we dont recognise the criterior for an NICEIC QS.

when i askes about getting the qualification she gave me some nuumbers, which i called. the cost of this course which turns out is a practicle course is nigh on £900.

i then rang the NICEIC and spoke to one of their operatives on the reception call centre. i explained the situation and said i would liek to speak to someone who could help. in his wisdom he put me through to the NICEIC ID card printing dept who were somewhat bemused as to why they had been put forward as a possible help. i then called the receptionist back and asked to speak to a manager. he put me on hold and then told me that he had spoken to a manager and that the advice was that if i needed the card with something other than Trainee on it then i should do the NVQ course.

i pointed out that the EAS committee management had recently come to an agreement whereby a new QS for a body such as the NICEIC applying for the post after 1 Jan 2012 would need the NVQ but that any QS's already in the role before this date woul dnot need it. on this basis the NICEIC either considered that i was indeed qualified to this level seeing as i have been inspected many time before on my workmanship or that if this was not the case then the NICEIC were happy to have QS's who were appointed before 1 jan 2012 who in the eyes of the JIB were no more than Trainees!! what is more is that we were recommended to do the electrical work because we are NICEIC approved and i now cannot get on to the site as the most senior person running the firm is only a Trainee. The NICEIC's reaction was 'you must take this up with the JIB as they are nothing to do with us'.

now for the question...

is it me or are all these electrical bodies not talking to each other? Why cant there be a standard that sparks can be judged by based on when they did their exams and what exams were available to them at the time? are they just interested in the next few hundred quid from the sparks that they have on their books? how can this be right that someone in my position and others the same cannot get an proper ECS card because the JIB (who have a monopoly on the ECS system)dont recognise City and Guilds qualifiactions anymore and i havent done an NVQ course that was brought in 5 years or more after a became qualified?

i cannot now do the work that i am being asked to do!! its so bloody anoying. this falls in with the shambles that is Part P.
 
That's ridiculous!
I had a similar experience when I applied for my JIB grading card around 5 years ago having 2360 parts 1 and 2, 2391, AM1, 2381 (16th edition), the ECS farcical exam and being a QS for the company I work for.
The JIB's reply was that I was to be graded as a trainee due to not having an NVQ level 3 or AM2. I wrote a pretty strong letter back stating what I do on a day to day basis and that it would be nothing short of a joke to ask me to take the AM2 or an NVQ level 3. They caved in and rightly graded me as an approved electrician.
Don't give up!
 
You appear to have three options:
Contact the JIB again, and ask whether there is a cut off date for people who took the 2360, and are not required to have an NVQ3.
Apply for a manager's card.
Take the NVQ3.
 
If its any consolation,i got mine last month with a nice TRAINEE in great big bold red lettering to show off on site(and get laughed off),I have the same quals 2360 1&2(no multiple choice back then was there) as you and noticed that they only put 17th edition and 2391 on the back,it is a farce and common sense has not prevailed with them,i emailed them and just kept getting a reply from an office admin assistant who will only read off a sheet.suppose i will do the nvq possibly sometime,but they can stuff the am2,did that sort of thing on the 2360 "rig".
 
I think the cut off was pre 2000,i know another sparks who had a JIB gold card with approved status and he was at college at same time as me,no nvq3,his employer just gave him a good reference.
 
Had a response from JIB today.

I applied for a job as a mate working on a three month contract at a local RAF base. They were keen to take me on as I hold enough quals and have the required experience to do the job, happy days. The requirement for the JIB card was not on the job sheet but is now a requirement, not a problem I did the H&S test a few months back and passed, just need to apply for the card.

They would only grade me as a labourer as I do not hold 2330 NVQ level 2 or 3, not amused in the slightest. So yet another job out of the window as I can't get on site to get the work done. I'm now looking at applying to my local college to get on the 2330 level 3 course, will be handy for the future but it will be at least 18 months before I can do any form of site work. Bit of a bummer.

I can't even get on site as an improver.

I appreciate the need for site safety and having correctly qualified people only but there's no sense to the system they're running and makes a mockery out of it.

Looks like I'll be sticking to the non-existent agency work for the foreseeable future.
 
Marky, I think that you will find that there are others in your situation. The problem as you rightly say is the number of bodies involved, each of them is trying to achieve something different. The NICEIC is a consumer protection body essentially which operates a system of company registration through a Qualifying supervisor, that being you in your case. The JIB is an industrial relations framework that sets the standards, for those companies which are members, for the qualifications of all of the electricians employed by those companies. The entry route is an apprenticeship which includes an NVQ3 therefore the requirement for the NVQ. In order to accommodate those previously qualified without the NVQ route, as you were, they operated, for a period of time, what was known as Grandfather rights i.e. if you had the relevant C&Gs and experience you could get the related electricians grade. But this was time limited. Gary may have qualified under this scheme as I believe that it closed about 5 years ago. I am not saying any of this is right and it is certainly not helpful to you but I am just trying to explain how we got here. I have no idea why the JIB told you to speak to the NICEIC as it has absolutely nothing to do with them and the JIB would have known that. The ECS card is affiliated to the CSCS who have given the ECS sole rights over the electrotechnical grades. The JIB/ECA got the licence to run the ECS scheme which is required by the UKCG ( UK Contractors Group) for entry to building sites( I won't blame you for losing the will to live with all of these different bodies but I think you get the picture).

If you are going to do the electrical work on site, rather than your electricians, them I'm afraid the only option is the NVQ, and I would shop around as you may get a more competitive quote. If you are visiting site to check the works then you can get a Visitors card which may be preferable to a Trainee. Whatever you choose I wish you luck. But it may be worth investing in the NVQ, frustrating as that is, because unless you stay away from the building sites of the main contractors who operate the CSCS you will keep coming up against this problem. It is a real shame that you missed the deadline on grandfather rights but that can't be helped.
 
I got my Scouts tea-making badge. What will that get me? Gotta be higher than a trainee as we all know they can't make a decent cuppa.
 
Arnold has got this right for me. I'm a (mature) student now but before I started studying I contacted the ECS and JIB about this scheme and requirements for site work. Unfortunately you missed out on the grandfather rights (by about 6 years!!) and you are pretty much buggered unless you sit for a Level 3 qualification.

Gotta be honest, this is a joke of an industry, pretty much every level of sparky is getting screwed around by the constantly changing goalposts from students right up to experienced supervisor level.
 
Arnold has got this right for me. I'm a (mature) student now but before I started studying I contacted the ECS and JIB about this scheme and requirements for site work. Unfortunately you missed out on the grandfather rights (by about 6 years!!) and you are pretty much buggered unless you sit for a Level 3 qualification.

Gotta be honest, this is a joke of an industry, pretty much every level of sparky is getting screwed around by the constantly changing goalposts from students right up to experienced supervisor level.

Just to add a timeline if you like I started my time in 1975 that was the year you had to have at least 4 O-levels to start with a big company for me it was Mathew Halls (Holiday Halls) you also had to have your C&G ie
A Electrician
B Approved
C Technician
If you started your time before 1975 and failed your exams you had to do an extra improver year (5 years) but would only get an electricians grade and go no further.
If you were an electrician before 1975 you got your approved only if you spent 2 years with the same company
If you got the A C&G then you got electrician after 4 years but no further.
If you got the B C&G then you got electrician after 4 years and approved after a further 2 years but if your employer thought you were not good enough he could delay it for 1 year
After 1981 if you had yor B C&G then as long as you had worked in the industy for 2 years ie with 4 or 5 companies you got your approved as at the time you could not keep 1 job down for the 2 years to get it. (Maggie Thatcher was in power)

So I take it I am Grandaded in then
 
Oldtimer, I'd say you were GREAT "Grandaded in" with Bells and Whistles ( But the JIB does not have that grade), although it might be fun to phone them up and ask for this grade ( You would be told politely that they would need to go away and check...then they would probably tell you to phone the NICEIC!)
 
Just get one of the other electricxians in your company to do it. As stated the JIB and NICEIC have different aims.
 
looking into this i have a statement in front of me say to gain full NIC membership applicants should hold the minimum skills criteria of C&G 2381! how many of the older qualified electricians hold this qualification? Also it does mention about have your work inspected anually!! Also this statement does mention that to be JIB approved the you should hold an NVQ 3 Electro-technical certificate so for many i guess the NVQ 3 is the most direct route to being JIB approved.
 
sorry for the pun of "old sparkys" lol i'm only just starting out on my adventure of becoming an electrician so was just quoting what i have in front of me! if i qualifiy i will get 17th edition C&G 2382, C&G 2377,EAL - Domestic approved installer certified and HSE certificate, I will then look to get into an electrical company to gain my NVQ 3 in order to become JIB approved an work on site. Would i then have to apply to NICEIC in order to work on site? Or do you need to just to be JIB approved?
 
I'm not 100% informed of the newest quals as they seem to change with the tides, but what you describe there is a Domestic Installer course and I know there is talk that the schemes will now want an NVQ in the not to distant future, but I think you will be lucky to get a company to take you on with just those quals.

I would recommend that you try and take the C& G 2357 I think it is now, and then go for JIB approval as an Electrician rather than a domestic installer
 
Just to add a timeline if you like I started my time in 1975 that was the year you had to have at least 4 O-levels to start with a big company for me it was Mathew Halls (Holiday Halls) you also had to have your C&G ie
A Electrician
B Approved
C Technician
If you started your time before 1975 and failed your exams you had to do an extra improver year (5 years) but would only get an electricians grade and go no further.
If you were an electrician before 1975 you got your approved only if you spent 2 years with the same company
If you got the A C&G then you got electrician after 4 years but no further.
If you got the B C&G then you got electrician after 4 years and approved after a further 2 years but if your employer thought you were not good enough he could delay it for 1 year
After 1981 if you had yor B C&G then as long as you had worked in the industy for 2 years ie with 4 or 5 companies you got your approved as at the time you could not keep 1 job down for the 2 years to get it. (Maggie Thatcher was in power)

So I take it I am Grandaded in then

I'm with you oldtimer, started my apprenticeship in 1970 with Electricity board and qualified in 1974.
Went self employed in 1984
Did a 16th edition upgrade in 1992.
Did a Inspection and testing course in 1995.
Did a 17th edition upgrade in 2011
It's a good job i'm self employed because i have no idea if i have the correct C&G certs or if i am legal!
I am a member of NICEIC so they must have some archives in a cupboard somewhere that says i'm OK!
 
I'm not 100% informed of the newest quals as they seem to change with the tides, but what you describe there is a Domestic Installer course and I know there is talk that the schemes will now want an NVQ in the not to distant future, but I think you will be lucky to get a company to take you on with just those quals.

I would recommend that you try and take the C& G 2357 I think it is now, and then go for JIB approval as an Electrician rather than a domestic installer

Thanks for your advice Malcolm, I sometimes work alongside my mate who's an electrician doing domestic work but i dont find myself all that keen on domestic electrics but if its a foot on the ladder then i'm willing to start at the bottom an work my way up as you can never have enough experience. But i will defo look at the C&G 2357 if thats what companys are looking for nowa days! Very Greatful for your advice on following the right path, Cheers once agian!!
There are so many qualifications as an electrician, how do you experinced ones know when to update your existing qualifications? My wife is a nurse and she says that their sent on courses nearly every year to keep their qualifications upto date, how often do sparkys have to update their qualifications?
 
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