Discuss ECS, NICEIC and JIB farce in the Business Related area at ElectriciansForums.net

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Tell me what you think of this guys...

i undertook a health and safety course in order to obtain an ECS card which as you may know is needed by many building sites these days. I got 98%. I sent off for my card the other day and paid the £36 or so for it.

Now i am the director of an electrical contracting firm, i have City and Guilds 2360 parts 1 and 2 in which i got distinctions, City and guilds 2391, 16th edition regs and 17th edtion regs, and i am also the NICEIC priciple duty holder and qualifying supervisor and have been so ever since we were accepted as a fully approved comapny by the NICEIC some ten years ago.

i put all this information on the ECS card application form.

today a got the card and guess what.. it has 'trainee' on it!!

obviously i contact the JIB and told them that there must be some mistake. the lady on the end of the phone asked about my qualifications which i listed. she said do you have an NVQ level 3 to which i replied no as when i did my City and guilds courses NVQ did not exist and had not even been though of. she said, well that why then. if you havent got that then in our vieww you are not more than a trainee. i said, but ive been an NICEIC QS for over ten years! they do not seem to have a problem with it and they inspect me personally every year. she said it makes no difference as we dont recognise the criterior for an NICEIC QS.

when i askes about getting the qualification she gave me some nuumbers, which i called. the cost of this course which turns out is a practicle course is nigh on £900.

i then rang the NICEIC and spoke to one of their operatives on the reception call centre. i explained the situation and said i would liek to speak to someone who could help. in his wisdom he put me through to the NICEIC ID card printing dept who were somewhat bemused as to why they had been put forward as a possible help. i then called the receptionist back and asked to speak to a manager. he put me on hold and then told me that he had spoken to a manager and that the advice was that if i needed the card with something other than Trainee on it then i should do the NVQ course.

i pointed out that the EAS committee management had recently come to an agreement whereby a new QS for a body such as the NICEIC applying for the post after 1 Jan 2012 would need the NVQ but that any QS's already in the role before this date woul dnot need it. on this basis the NICEIC either considered that i was indeed qualified to this level seeing as i have been inspected many time before on my workmanship or that if this was not the case then the NICEIC were happy to have QS's who were appointed before 1 jan 2012 who in the eyes of the JIB were no more than Trainees!! what is more is that we were recommended to do the electrical work because we are NICEIC approved and i now cannot get on to the site as the most senior person running the firm is only a Trainee. The NICEIC's reaction was 'you must take this up with the JIB as they are nothing to do with us'.

now for the question...

is it me or are all these electrical bodies not talking to each other? Why cant there be a standard that sparks can be judged by based on when they did their exams and what exams were available to them at the time? are they just interested in the next few hundred quid from the sparks that they have on their books? how can this be right that someone in my position and others the same cannot get an proper ECS card because the JIB (who have a monopoly on the ECS system)dont recognise City and Guilds qualifiactions anymore and i havent done an NVQ course that was brought in 5 years or more after a became qualified?

i cannot now do the work that i am being asked to do!! its so bloody anoying. this falls in with the shambles that is Part P.
 
A

Arnold Layne

Oldtimer, I'd say you were GREAT "Grandaded in" with Bells and Whistles ( But the JIB does not have that grade), although it might be fun to phone them up and ask for this grade ( You would be told politely that they would need to go away and check...then they would probably tell you to phone the NICEIC!)
 
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stuartgil

looking into this i have a statement in front of me say to gain full NIC membership applicants should hold the minimum skills criteria of C&G 2381! how many of the older qualified electricians hold this qualification? Also it does mention about have your work inspected anually!! Also this statement does mention that to be JIB approved the you should hold an NVQ 3 Electro-technical certificate so for many i guess the NVQ 3 is the most direct route to being JIB approved.
 
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stuartgil

sorry for the pun of "old sparkys" lol i'm only just starting out on my adventure of becoming an electrician so was just quoting what i have in front of me! if i qualifiy i will get 17th edition C&G 2382, C&G 2377,EAL - Domestic approved installer certified and HSE certificate, I will then look to get into an electrical company to gain my NVQ 3 in order to become JIB approved an work on site. Would i then have to apply to NICEIC in order to work on site? Or do you need to just to be JIB approved?
 
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I'm not 100% informed of the newest quals as they seem to change with the tides, but what you describe there is a Domestic Installer course and I know there is talk that the schemes will now want an NVQ in the not to distant future, but I think you will be lucky to get a company to take you on with just those quals.

I would recommend that you try and take the C& G 2357 I think it is now, and then go for JIB approval as an Electrician rather than a domestic installer
 
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Just to add a timeline if you like I started my time in 1975 that was the year you had to have at least 4 O-levels to start with a big company for me it was Mathew Halls (Holiday Halls) you also had to have your C&G ie
A Electrician
B Approved
C Technician
If you started your time before 1975 and failed your exams you had to do an extra improver year (5 years) but would only get an electricians grade and go no further.
If you were an electrician before 1975 you got your approved only if you spent 2 years with the same company
If you got the A C&G then you got electrician after 4 years but no further.
If you got the B C&G then you got electrician after 4 years and approved after a further 2 years but if your employer thought you were not good enough he could delay it for 1 year
After 1981 if you had yor B C&G then as long as you had worked in the industy for 2 years ie with 4 or 5 companies you got your approved as at the time you could not keep 1 job down for the 2 years to get it. (Maggie Thatcher was in power)

So I take it I am Grandaded in then

I'm with you oldtimer, started my apprenticeship in 1970 with Electricity board and qualified in 1974.
Went self employed in 1984
Did a 16th edition upgrade in 1992.
Did a Inspection and testing course in 1995.
Did a 17th edition upgrade in 2011
It's a good job i'm self employed because i have no idea if i have the correct C&G certs or if i am legal!
I am a member of NICEIC so they must have some archives in a cupboard somewhere that says i'm OK!
 
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stuartgil

I'm not 100% informed of the newest quals as they seem to change with the tides, but what you describe there is a Domestic Installer course and I know there is talk that the schemes will now want an NVQ in the not to distant future, but I think you will be lucky to get a company to take you on with just those quals.

I would recommend that you try and take the C& G 2357 I think it is now, and then go for JIB approval as an Electrician rather than a domestic installer

Thanks for your advice Malcolm, I sometimes work alongside my mate who's an electrician doing domestic work but i dont find myself all that keen on domestic electrics but if its a foot on the ladder then i'm willing to start at the bottom an work my way up as you can never have enough experience. But i will defo look at the C&G 2357 if thats what companys are looking for nowa days! Very Greatful for your advice on following the right path, Cheers once agian!!
There are so many qualifications as an electrician, how do you experinced ones know when to update your existing qualifications? My wife is a nurse and she says that their sent on courses nearly every year to keep their qualifications upto date, how often do sparkys have to update their qualifications?
 
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