ECS, NICEIC and JIB farce

[malcolmsanford]

A must for us electricians is the Regs. Every time there is an update we need to to do a course, this is my 4th set of regs I started on the 14th and done a course for the 17th in 2009, so if they ever bring out an 18th I hope to all that is holy i'm out of it.

The problem with our industry is that we are looked upon by training centres as a cash cow. You can take courses in Alarms, PAT testing, Testing and Inspection and the latest to hit us was the PV courses, soon I'm sure there will be a course for Medical locations, and Surge protection devices and in a couple of years there will be something else.

If you want to do commercial/industrial there are courses for logic control, PLC and even a maintenance courser it really is never ending, if you had the money you could spend a working life in a class room

 

[stuartgil]

seems to be an never ending pot then! Where my wife is a nurse and their governing body pays for them to keep up to date with their qualifications would that be the same for a sparky working for a company or is it up to the individual? Its as if you need money put aside in this game to keep yourself on track with the latest regs, plus being a member of a governing body NICIEC/JIB plus insurances, wow this forum has really opened my eyes

 

[brucelee]

Hi Lenny is correct

the C&G 2330 is ending and the NVQ 2356
2357 was supposed to replace them
But this was only aimed at 16-18 yr olds and all funding scrapped
I have now been told that they are in process of doing a New technical certificate which will be available to all similar to 2330
It will be slightly changed

as they must have realised they would lose a large amount of money not allowing new entrants who are retraining etc

The 2357 is a mess
C&G are a joke
and JIB are in there own world

There should be one set of quals for all regardless of age or circumstance to get rid of this mess and sort it out once and for all

 

[oldtimer]

The thing is in my view there is a massive conflict of interests where the Schemies push for reviews under the guise of improvement knowing full well that they gain financially by selling the courses and everything that goes with it a bit like a heroin dealer that keeps his junkies at the begging for more level the only thing is there is no one that can afford to take them to court to get this recognised. But like malcolm I started on the 14th then 15th,16th,17, I&T 2377 but the 18th is a step too far

 

[sedgy34]

I would just like to note im getting slightly annoyed with people moaning about the part p and thats all they do is moan about it then accept it,
do a bit more and email your MP about it.
i think we are all hacked off with the part p for our own reasons and many have been noted on the forum on different threads etc
i my self have posted stuff about it and some responses were IS IT WORTH WASTING MY TIME!!! (defeatests).

rant over!

 

[stuartgil]

totally agree with that bruce, why have so many qualification grades when every one should be trained to the same standard (high standard at that) that way people will all be singing from the same page and you wont have this mess of not knowing if your qualifications are still worthy of the paper their written on. Stick to the one body and every ones happy!!

 

[Dic Penderyn]

Markthesparky! You'll be the highest paid Trainee on site! Lol!

 

[sbrown2]

I've got to ask, are these course you took academic or vocational courses. I come on this forum and get confused. I see the choices as follows:

1) JIB Electrician - you need vocational qualification ie an apprenticeship, NVQ 3, AM2? and academic ie ONC, C&G etc. These prove you have been assessed vocational and academically as a electrician to on of the JIB electrician grades ie electrician, approved or technician.
2) AN Other Electrician - you get 17th edition minimum qualification. You do a job and get it assessed as part of a competent person scheme. You pass this and become an electrician as part of the scheme you have joined. You can complete other qualifications if you wish and you can go on to become a QS of an approved contractors company. But if you want or need to get on a JIB site you need 1) above. Or hire a JIB sparky. You could then apply to get onto the site as a manager or engineer for the purposes of supervision.

I am happy to be wrong with these comments and any advice would be welcome. By the way I scrapped through 2391 years ago and would certainly not want to do it again!

 

[Arnold Layne]

sbrown2, you are more or less right in what you have outlined. Just a small point of clarification though, the JIB card is needed to work for a JIB Employer. The CSCS card is what is required to get onto sites that operate the scheme ( it is a main contractor scheme) the ECS/JIB card is affiliated to the CSCS so if you are an electrician you need the ECS card to get on to a CSCS scheme site. If you are not going to do the actual electrical work, but manage it other cards are an option which do not require the electricians qualifications necessary for a JIB grade. There are so many different parties involved in all of this that its a minefield.

 

[sbrown2]

Thanks for the reply.

Therefore going back to the original post...he is a qualified electrician as in (2) above. But you cannot get around the system for working on a construction site. God forbid..........my background is in Mining working upto 11Kv should I move onto systems on the grid upto 132KV?.....maybe with some training and supervision.
Not all apprentice trained people are good but people have to understand that option (1) and (2) are points of principle based on minimal qualifications and non valid structured vocational training join a scheme, structured vocational training (nvq3) and quals and you can join a scheme and the JIB. Large construction sites have not got the time or resources anymore for sorting through peoples qualifiocations and skills. Whereas the schemes are paid to assess these on your behalf.
I've gone through the pain of getting a ECS/JIB card and even though I do not use it I will keep it updated and do the h&s exam because I do not want it to lapse then need it in the future and find the criteria has changed.

 

[Arnold Layne]

I think that you are doing the right thing sbrown2. Having got the card it is absolutely worth keeping it updated whether you need it or not.

 

[Farmelectrics]

Is the am2 classed as your nvq3

 

[Arnold Layne]

Farmelectrics, the AM2 and the NVQ are two different things but I suppose they are essentially designed to test similar things although our current apprenticeships require both and you can't get through unless you pass both. As you know the AM2 is the trade test, taken at a trade test centre and you are given an electrical task and once you have completed it the examiner will check it and pass or fail you, so you're doing actual work. The NVQ requires you to write in a workbook what you have done over a period of time and what you need to do is predetermined. So an apprentice will do it over the course of his/her apprenticeship and as they undertake specified tasks on site they write them up. Then an NVQ assessor checks this and signs it off.

 

[sbrown2]

I would be interested to know what the AM2 consists of. ie making glands, hanging cables, mounting switchgear etc

 

[oldtimer]

I think that you are doing the right thing sbrown2. Having got the card it is absolutely worth keeping it updated whether you need it or not.

Totally agree I have had mines for the past 32 years and even when I went into alarms/HVAC controls/Building maintenance I kept up to date as I seen it as my safety net so when I started a business 3 years ago there was no scrambling about trying to get it back

 

[sbrown2]

I've been told that people on a competent person scheme but without an NVQ3 can get a ECS domestic installers card. It just will not allow them on site.

 

[vernam616]

A few years back the boss ordered everyone a jib card, it came back with ancillary operative on it, the company hadnt sent our quals in , even though i had nvq3 etc...

I left the card at home and carried the ecs pass certificate in the van, showed them that and could get on any site at all

I do see your frustration, but maybe this is how the industry is going to change, all sites requiring a jib card, setting a industry standard, which really is what the trade needs.

Someone of your calibre with the quals you have and QS experience wouldnt struggle with the nvq3, albeit £900 is a stinger, it would be beneficial to prove yourself

Oh and to top it off the nvq is crap, spend hours writing up jobs, materials used , tools used and collecting photos of you posing next to things.

Have a look about a friend of mine was in the same boat he paid around £600 for a online course

 

[markythesparky]

I do see your frustration, but maybe this is how the industry is going to change, all sites requiring a jib card, setting a industry standard, which really is what the trade needs.

Someone of your calibre with the quals you have and QS experience wouldnt struggle with the nvq3, albeit £900 is a stinger, it would be beneficial to prove yourself

Oh and to top it off the nvq is crap, spend hours writing up jobs, materials used , tools used and collecting photos of you posing next to things.



The point is that we do the exams at college in order to 'prove ourselves'. All the trade needs is that each body involved in the trade in some respect should talk to all the others and come to some middle ground so that we dont have to keep spend £1000's on new exams and qulaifications.

Anyway, i asked my NICIEC inspector about this situation and he said that the 'JIB are so wrapped up in there own little world that they probably spend most of their time these days sorting out complaints like these. Their systems are such that they have no idea what is going on in the rela world'.

I am sure you will be pleased to hear that i took some advice from one of the other early repliers and wrote a very strong letter to the JIB outlining my utter disgust with the way they carry on and i have now recieved an approved electrician card. They wanted to have a letter from the company listing my day to day duties and work experience.

 

[oldtimer]

Marky the problem is that the JIB are getting swamped with guys who have the qualifications but just no experience and some of the posts on the forum endorse that when they say well I have bagged my 17th,2391.2377, how do I go about getting my JIB card or in other words how can I frig the system and i am sure you will agree that electricity is dangerous plus the Electrical Trainee debate does not help I have been in the trade 37 years and yes I am still learning so I think JIB are correct in asking for supportive evidence plus it does not help that the individual does not keep a written log book stating what he or she has done and when and who for .

Also as a guy who has had to do 14th ,15th,16th,17th,I&T,2377, just to keep up will the current changes I have said this before the Schemies are the problem here because they encorouge fast tracking as they are sales orientated and would say the NICEIC have done more damage to this trade than the rest put together and with their if it has a heart beat and it pays the subs then we will badge it attitude is nothing short of criminal plus their free transfer from another Scheme providor only endorses their sales approuch. I honestly think we have put ourselves in a straight jacket allowing the Schemies to have too much say as self appointed overlords yet the funny thing is there is no and there never will be a legal obligation to join one as under the European Free Trade Act they are breaking the law telling people they must join. I would also highlight that we as a trade are getting hit with extra costs that no other trade has to absorb you only have to look at the BRB-BGB, Onsite Guide, GN3 PIR-EICR to name but a few changes that well in my view piled on us to keep these clowns in a job with the guys who inspect you saying I am sorry you are not up to scratch but dont despair because we run courses and will sell you the books. So do me a favour next time you talk to your NICEIC inspector ask him if he is on any bonus or incentive system because thats what ruined the banks as they were more interested in sales rather than the standards of their field

 

[brucelee]

Existing Qualified supervisors do not need to do a NVQ lv3 only new registrants will be required to hold the qual or similar
But i heard they are bringing in a DI NVQ for part P
as for the approved contractor under the NIC not sure