For new sparks who change dist boards

[MDJ]

I have spent 2 days in total doing an EICR on these boards, I won't give away too much info in this first post, I would like you new sparks who go around peoples houses changing dist boards to let me know if you think this needs ripping out and replacing? if so what is your reasons and what questions do you think you would need to ask me before making your decision?

 

[R G]

Theres are things that can be done to make it compliant but by the time you have done all that and carried out any remedial works on the circuits , would you actually be leaving the installation in an orthodox manner , I suspect with all that on the wall anybody would want to leave it at least easier to understand , I would deco recommend a new consumer unit , following the further testing of the installation and correction of it ,,,

 

[MDJ]

Recommending a replacement is a normal thing to do for most in this situation and is understandable, the skill here is knowing if it is needed and whether the boards need replacing, lets say for example a well known company went into this house, didn't test or inspect anything just glanced at the boards ( which may be the truth) and told the customer that the lot needed ripping out beacause it was highly dangerous and a bill of £1,600.00 plus vat was the cost to install a new large high integrety board. one would that be satisfactory,two would it be unsatisfactory or three would it be daylight robbery? I am not saying my views yet, just hoping the inexperienced guys here would have an idea about it.

 

[dazza1981]

Thanks mdj this is what these forums should be about... also gives the newly qualified sparks like myself something to think about and learn from!!!

 

[R G]

you would need a few stand alone RCDs to make this compliant , so I can't imagine what it would look like when complete, its a bit of a spiders web now,



Thats it I have done my little bit , let someone else have a go now ,,

 

[Knobhead]

Is it ethical would be at the top of my list.

That said, ethics have gone out of the window now.

 

[Knobhead]

you would need a few stand alone RCDs to make this compliant , so I can't imagine what it would look like when complete, its a bit of a spiders web now,

Think again.

 

[MDJ]

you would need a few stand alone RCDs to make this compliant , so I can't imagine what it would look like when complete, its a bit of a spiders web now,

Really? the Installation is 30 years old, all zs readings are within parameters and bonding is up to scratch, I can see your point, but if we went into every house in the uk 95% of them would not have stand alone RCDs would they? when we carry out an EICR do we have to ensure the premises is safe or up to 17th edition 2014 standards? To add a bit of info here. If I bought that house I would rip the lot out and replace, but if I did that there would I be breaking the law if I told the customer it had to be done because it was dangerous?

 

[Plonker 3]

you would need a few stand alone RCDs to make this compliant , so I can't imagine what it would look like when complete, its a bit of a spiders web now,



Thats it I have done my little bit , let someone else have a go now ,,

edited

Sorry MDJ, i maybe gave a little more away than you wanted too.

 

[MDJ]

I think Tony has had enough and like me is biting at the bit to say the truth, he is 100% right by the way. okay the findings were I couldn't tell the customer it had to be ripped out. As hightower mentioned early on I recommended it and told the customer why, but when he asked me " Mike is it essential, is it dangerous do I have to spend money having a new board my answer was No you do not, although your installation is old, every circuit passed the test, not one circuit didn't comply, so how could I justify taking his money? the long and short of it is we have no right to rip people off and I believe these companies who do need to end up in court. Remember it is a test and inspection to assess danger not whether it is up to regulations. That said what a bloody mess the lot should be ripped out, but sigh we have to be honest.

 

[dazza1981]

I think the moral of it is..... is it safe for continued use and and does is present any sort of hazard or danger. obviously theres your testing and checks etc but just because it looks untidy and not the best workmanship does not make it unsafe, just more of an eyesore to the trained eye. But i may be wrong!!

 

[R G]

The work would be a recommendation only , as you say this was all compliant in the past ,so how is that breaking the law, you have asked what you think of the pictures , I have offered a recommendation based on them,

 

[MDJ]

I think the moral of it is..... is it safe for continued use and and does is present any sort of hazard or danger. obviously theres your testing and checks etc but just because it looks untidy and not the best workmanship does not make it unsafe, just more of an eyesore to the trained eye. But i may be wrong!!

There is nothing wrong with recommending a db change if it seems cost effective, but we all need to test, inspect and assess before getting carried away, I was quite suprised myself at the installation and apart from the open back and lack of single point of isolation couldn't really say much else about it although tatty and old.

 

[MDJ]

The work would be a recommendation only , as you say this was all compliant in the past ,so how is that breaking the law, you have asked what you think of the pictures , I have offered a recommendation based on them,

to tell the client the boards need changing would be breaking the law if a EICR was not carried out correctly. My intial post was to 17 day wonders who just assume it does due to the look of the boards, we did get a little deeper into it, but it is not dangerous so no need to replace athough crap.

- - - Updated - - -

The work would be a recommendation only , as you say this was all compliant in the past ,so how is that breaking the law, you have asked what you think of the pictures , I have offered a recommendation based on them,

Okay calm down, I was just informing you of the reality regarding this situation.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Haven't read the thread, but just to add one point...
The key point of Periodics is (to me anyway), is it safe for continued service until the next Inspection.

 

[Guest55]

i cant believe we've indulged mdj for 6 pages on his thinly veiled rant ;-)

anyways , if i was to rock up to a test/inspect job with those pictured fuseboxes on the wall , i'd actually be relieved !
why ? because looking at it shows to me its all original and unmolested and probably works ok since no ham fisted amateur has tried to shoehorn in a load of rcds.
;-)

 

[R G]

Exactly , If I see anything like this or if asked to extend or add anything to an installation like this , an EICR is the only recommendation, I usually offer this and a refund of the cost of it against the costs of any remedial works are carried out ...

 

[R G]

i cant believe we've indulged mdj for 6 pages on his thinly veiled rant ;-)

anyways , if i was to rock up to a test/inspect job with those pictured fuseboxes on the wall , i'd actually be relieved !
why ? because looking at it shows to me its all original and unmolested and probably works ok since no ham fisted amateur has tried to shoehorn in a load of rcds.
;-)

Fully agree with that , It would look a complete mess otherwise ...

 

[Knobhead]

If the installation is up to it as you say it is Mike. I would recommend upfront RCD’s for the two Wylex boards. I couldn’t and wouldn’t insist on it.

With a bit of thought about spreading the circuits across the boards, where’s the difference with a split board?

My work mates thought I was extravagant fitting upfront RCD’s to the two Wylex boards in my first house, they were bloody expensive back then. Under the 14[SUP]th[/SUP] they weren’t required

 

[R G]

Sorry if it sounded like that , it wasn't meant to , I can see what the benefits are of what you have done mate ..

 

[lockhes]

Just get a recommendation to me as it's not dangerous

 

[MDJ]

If the installation is up to it as you say it is Mike. I would recommend upfront RCD’s for the two Wylex boards. I couldn’t and wouldn’t insist on it.

My work mates thought I was extravagant fitting upfront RCD’s to the two Wylex boards in my first house, they were bloody expensive back then. Under the 14[SUP]th[/SUP] they weren’t required

Good shout, I recommend a DB change at a good price but the guy didn't want to spend the cash, I did charge him over 300 quid for the EICR, that might sound expensive but it was a large house and took the best part of 2 days to complete. I probably lost out really with the price as it is a little cheap for the time on site. But we live and learn, he is happy and I feel I can sleep at night by not ripping him off.

 

[Knobhead]

It's been an interesting thread Mike, as you intended.

Nice one kid :smug2:

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Haven't read the thread, but just to add one point...
The key point of Periodics is (to me anyway), is it safe for continued service until the next Inspection.

no.

safe for continued service at the time it was inspected & tested

 

[R G]

As you say Mike the type of installation you have shown here is one you see everywhere, your never too sure in a way what the best way is , and an EICR is the only way , A client may say oh I wish i could get all that lot sorted out , or they may say whats wrong with it , you know what you would like to do with it but at the end of the day you have to justify it , as bad as it looks it is not your call , you can only recommend what should be done

 

[cotty]

Good shout, I recommend a DB change at a good price but the guy didn't want to spend the cash, I did charge him over 300 quid for the EICR, that might sound expensive but it was a large house and took the best part of 2 days to complete. I probably lost out really with the price as it is a little cheap for the time on site. But we live and learn, he is happy and I feel I can sleep at night by not ripping him off.

£Over £300 for the EICR for 2 days! Sounds very reasonable to me. Will you get the remedial work?

 

[MDJ]

£Over £300 for the EICR for 2 days! Sounds very reasonable to me. Will you get the remedial work?

Not sure TBH, I have given him the EICR and he has paid me which is rare because I normally wait weeks lol, it was left that they would think about it and ring me, I will forget about it, if it happens it happens, no big deal.

 

[Silly Sausage]

no.

safe for continued service at the time it was inspected & tested

I would argue a Pass for the foreseeable future, on the assumption it's not going to hacked!
If there was evidence of degradation likely to occur soon, I'd code or note as such.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I come back from my travels after posting a thread about my CU change and I'm faced with this!! MDJ are you having a dig??

I have purposefully not looked at any other other posts... I really haven't!

Very hesitant about posting but I'm used to people calling me names so here goes..

1. Are all blanks covered? Including the small holes that are left after someone has replaced rewirables with MCB's?

2. Large junction box not accessible without removing the CU.

3. TNCS - Is it 16mm CPC.. looks like it but might be 10mm, also is it continuous.. looks like it must be broken as I cant see it going into either CU.

4. Main CU on left looks like it has tails going into neutral terminal block and a MCB??? I dont know if that is a big no no but it doesn't look good and I wonder if the MCB can take 16mm properly??

5. No isolation for whole system. Again I dont know if this is mandatory but I'd like to see a nice isolater that switches off everything.

6. Henly block might not be sealed on right hand side and haven't seen the seal go across like that before. Is it sealed?

7. Cant figure out what is going on with the main tails from meter. neutral to Henly and line disappears somewhere and then reappears as 2 reds into 2 CU's. Whats going on their? How is it split?

8. Bonding.. can only see 2 singles going into boards.. ?main earth and bonding. Is their gas? is it bonded? Is it 6mm?

I'm sure theres lots more thats glaringly obvious that I've missed but I cant look at it anymore and I dont know what that little consumer unit is doing between the RCD unit and left Main CU!!

I need lots more pictures and would have lots more questions for you MDJ!!??

What would I do as an inexperienced installer?

- I dont know if it definitely needs changing MDJ but I'd say 'yes' but thats just because its confusing me and I suspect this is a trick question in some way!!

- I wouldn't touch it because its too much for me.... so I would tell the customer that I am booked up for over a month due to my overwhelming demand!

Next time you have a job like that MDJ... please give me a call so I can watch!! :smiley2:

 

[MDJ]

I come back from my travels after posting a thread about my CU change and I'm faced with this!! MDJ are you having a dig??

I have purposefully not looked at any other other posts... I really haven't!

Very hesitant about posting but I'm used to people calling me names so here goes..

1. Are all blanks covered? Including the small holes that are left after someone has replaced rewirables with MCB's?

2. Large junction box not accessible without removing the CU.

3. TNCS - Is it 16mm CPC.. looks like it but might be 10mm, also is it continuous.. looks like it must be broken as I cant see it going into either CU.

4. Main CU on left looks like it has tails going into neutral terminal block and a MCB??? I dont know if that is a big no no but it doesn't look good and I wonder if the MCB can take 16mm properly??

5. No isolation for whole system. Again I dont know if this is mandatory but I'd like to see a nice isolater that switches off everything.

6. Henly block might not be sealed on right hand side and haven't seen the seal go across like that before. Is it sealed?

7. Cant figure out what is going on with the main tails from meter. neutral to Henly and line disappears somewhere and then reappears as 2 reds into 2 CU's. Whats going on their? How is it split?

8. Bonding.. can only see 2 singles going into boards.. ?main earth and bonding. Is their gas? is it bonded? Is it 6mm?

I'm sure theres lots more thats glaringly obvious that I've missed but I cant look at it anymore and I dont know what that little consumer unit is doing between the RCD unit and left Main CU!!

I need lots more pictures and would have lots more questions for you MDJ!!??

What would I do as an inexperienced installer?

- I dont know if it definitely needs changing MDJ but I'd say 'yes' but thats just because its confusing me and I suspect this is a trick question in some way!!

- I wouldn't touch it because its too much for me.... so I would tell the customer that I am booked up for over a month due to my overwhelming demand!

Next time you have a job like that MDJ... please give me a call so I can watch!! :smiley2:

No not referring to you, all other questions I believe have been answered except the tails question. the 2 tails you see in the left hand board feed the RCD db on the far left.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I would argue a Pass for the foreseeable future, on the assumption it's not going to hacked!
If there was evidence of degradation likely to occur soon, I'd code or note as such.

no.

pass at the time it was inspected

no

i would never carry out condition reporting...and allow `assumptions` to get in the way