For new sparks who change dist boards

[MDJ]

I have spent 2 days in total doing an EICR on these boards, I won't give away too much info in this first post, I would like you new sparks who go around peoples houses changing dist boards to let me know if you think this needs ripping out and replacing? if so what is your reasons and what questions do you think you would need to ask me before making your decision?

 

[HandySparks]

i would never carry out condition reporting...and allow `assumptions` to get in the way

Except that your 'Recommended date for next inspection' will be determined by some assumptions.

 

[netblindpaul]

...mains tails to henley block are actually 16mm2 double insulated...

Come on MDJ, they are not and surely you realise that?
Conventional meter tails are NOT double insulated, unless you have some specially manufactured items there that are not 6181Y?

 

[Silly Sausage]

no.

pass at the time it was inspected

no

i would never carry out condition reporting...and allow `assumptions` to get in the way

I've done loads where it looks a total mess, but still good for service, but knowing with a very high percentage of certainty it's not going to be disturbed in anyway. Hence give it a 10 year or whathaveyou next due date.

 

[R G]

I've done loads where it looks a total mess, but still good for service, but knowing with a very high percentage of certainty it's not going to be disturbed in anyway. Hence give it a 10 year or whathaveyou next due date.

If its a complete mess , even though its compliant , its still something I would give as recommendation to the client , regardless wether they go ahead with the work or not , If the installation becomes faulty afterwards it would at least cover your a__e

 

[CockneyReject]

Good shout, I recommend a DB change at a good price but the guy didn't want to spend the cash, I did charge him over 300 quid for the EICR, that might sound expensive but it was a large house and took the best part of 2 days to complete. I probably lost out really with the price as it is a little cheap for the time on site. But we live and learn, he is happy and I feel I can sleep at night by not ripping him off.

very reasonable if not a little cheap IMO for 2 days work and an in depth test and inspection that's good value for money

Just out of interest what were the insulation resistance results like?

now it's all out in the open too here's my opinion, from the pics and what's been said by yourself it appears to be compliant to the regs at the time of construction and the additions appear to be compliant to the regs at the time of installation so alls good there, yes there are bits and pieces I'd recommend sorting out and yes it's rough around the edges but if there's little sign of wear and tear and it all tests out fine why try and force a board change on a installation that's still serviceable, that's something I'd leave down to the customer when handing over the report and giving them all the facts, no point in going in guns blazing all high and mighty acting like the electric police as I'd bet any muppet that takes that approach will more than likely leave that installation in a far more dangerous state

 

[Meggerman]

Why everyone so eager to justify leaving untidy crap in?? That install is untidy. I would not want that at my home. Also it is safer on 17th DB, RCD protection on everything, so that is justification enough. Also, is that a wood screw I see jammed in that ABS enclosure, which is also not very accessible. Crap job, rip it out!!

 

[CockneyReject]

Why everyone so eager to justify leaving untidy crap in?? That install is untidy. I would not want that at my home. Also it is safer on 17th DB, RCD protection on everything, so that is justification enough. Also, is that a wood screw I see jammed in that ABS enclosure, which is also not very accessible. Crap job, rip it out!!

Whats that sound?.....................

yep its it's the electricity police

its up to the customer at the end of the day, if it's safe and serviceable then what's the problem?

 

[moospark]

I have spent 2 days in total doing an EICR on these boards, I won't give away too much info in this first post, I would like you new sparks who go around peoples houses changing dist boards to let me know if you think this needs ripping out and replacing? if so what is your reasons and what questions do you think you would need to ask me before making your decision?

Was the E.I.C.R. done by any chance with a view to flogging the house in the near future? Better to spend £500ish getting it tidy and certified than buyer asking for a couple of grand off, surveyors etc.?

 

[Meggerman]

Absolutely, of course it is up to the customer. I only quote for it, up to them if they want it. It is safer brought up to current spec so that is my justification in always recommending it.

 

[R G]

Mike had done the right thing , he did recommend a new board , unfortunately the EICR is very black and white , however as a qualified spark I personally would also recommend a new DB , but as said already its not your call , but whatever I did , i would put recomendations down in writing,,

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Whats that sound?.....................

yep its it's the electricity police

its up to the customer at the end of the day, if it's safe and serviceable then what's the problem?

Woop, Woop, thats da Sound of da police (KRS1) - YouTube

 

[R G]

Woop, Woop, thats da Sound of da police (KRS1) - YouTube

HEHEHEHEHE leave those old boards in it could be the sound of the fire engine , ne nah ne nah ,LOL,,,

 

[BES]

Would it be great if we had to update every electrical installation upto current regs then everytime a new ammedment comes out do them again and when the 18th comes out do them all again.
This time next year we'd all be millionares.
Mind you there is some people out there who think we already do

 

[Knobhead]

I come back from my travels after posting a thread about my CU change and I'm faced with this!! MDJ are you having a dig??

I have purposefully not looked at any other other posts... I really haven't!

Very hesitant about posting but I'm used to people calling me names so here goes..

1. Are all blanks covered? Including the small holes that are left after someone has replaced rewirables with MCB's?

2. Large junction box not accessible without removing the CU.

3. TNCS - Is it 16mm CPC.. looks like it but might be 10mm, also is it continuous.. looks like it must be broken as I cant see it going into either CU.

4. Main CU on left looks like it has tails going into neutral terminal block and a MCB??? I dont know if that is a big no no but it doesn't look good and I wonder if the MCB can take 16mm properly??

5. No isolation for whole system. Again I dont know if this is mandatory but I'd like to see a nice isolater that switches off everything.

6. Henly block might not be sealed on right hand side and haven't seen the seal go across like that before. Is it sealed?

7. Cant figure out what is going on with the main tails from meter. neutral to Henly and line disappears somewhere and then reappears as 2 reds into 2 CU's. Whats going on their? How is it split?

8. Bonding.. can only see 2 singles going into boards.. ?main earth and bonding. Is their gas? is it bonded? Is it 6mm?

I'm sure theres lots more thats glaringly obvious that I've missed but I cant look at it anymore and I dont know what that little consumer unit is doing between the RCD unit and left Main CU!!

I need lots more pictures and would have lots more questions for you MDJ!!??

What would I do as an inexperienced installer?

- I dont know if it definitely needs changing MDJ but I'd say 'yes' but thats just because its confusing me and I suspect this is a trick question in some way!!

- I wouldn't touch it because its too much for me.... so I would tell the customer that I am booked up for over a month due to my overwhelming demand!

Next time you have a job like that MDJ... please give me a call so I can watch!! :smiley2:

You’ve fallen in to the trap.

No it’s not compliant with the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition revision 2.

But the regulations are not retrospective, it’s stated in the first few pages of the current regulations and every previous edition before.

That install is either late 14[SUP]th[/SUP] or the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] edition, as such the then current regulations have to be applied.

You say you find the install confusing and so would recommend its replacement? The customer pays through the nose for unnecessary work because you don’t understand it?


Mike did everyone a favour by starting this thread.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I come back from my travels after posting a thread about my CU change and I'm faced with this!! MDJ are you having a dig??

I have purposefully not looked at any other other posts... I really haven't!

Very hesitant about posting but I'm used to people calling me names so here goes..

1. Are all blanks covered? Including the small holes that are left after someone has replaced rewirables with MCB's?

2. Large junction box not accessible without removing the CU.

3. TNCS - Is it 16mm CPC.. looks like it but might be 10mm, also is it continuous.. looks like it must be broken as I cant see it going into either CU.

4. Main CU on left looks like it has tails going into neutral terminal block and a MCB??? I dont know if that is a big no no but it doesn't look good and I wonder if the MCB can take 16mm properly??

5. No isolation for whole system. Again I dont know if this is mandatory but I'd like to see a nice isolater that switches off everything.

6. Henly block might not be sealed on right hand side and haven't seen the seal go across like that before. Is it sealed?

7. Cant figure out what is going on with the main tails from meter. neutral to Henly and line disappears somewhere and then reappears as 2 reds into 2 CU's. Whats going on their? How is it split?

8. Bonding.. can only see 2 singles going into boards.. ?main earth and bonding. Is their gas? is it bonded? Is it 6mm?

I'm sure theres lots more thats glaringly obvious that I've missed but I cant look at it anymore and I dont know what that little consumer unit is doing between the RCD unit and left Main CU!!

I need lots more pictures and would have lots more questions for you MDJ!!??

What would I do as an inexperienced installer?

- I dont know if it definitely needs changing MDJ but I'd say 'yes' but thats just because its confusing me and I suspect this is a trick question in some way!!

- I wouldn't touch it because its too much for me.... so I would tell the customer that I am booked up for over a month due to my overwhelming demand!

Next time you have a job like that MDJ... please give me a call so I can watch!! :smiley2:

is it a what?

your not kiddin

 

[HappyHippyDad]

You’ve fallen in to the trap.

No it’s not compliant with the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition revision 2.

But the regulations are not retrospective, it’s stated in the first few pages of the current regulations and every previous edition before.

That install is either late 14[SUP]th[/SUP] or the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] edition, as such the then current regulations have to be applied.

You say you find the install confusing and so would recommend its replacement? The customer pays through the nose for unnecessary work because you don’t understand it?


Mike did everyone a favour by starting this thread.

That was said tongue in cheek Tony.

I didn't know the answer. I wouldn't have taken the job.

 

[HappyHippyDad]

You’ve fallen in to the trap.

No it’s not compliant with the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] edition revision 2.

But the regulations are not retrospective, it’s stated in the first few pages of the current regulations and every previous edition before.

That install is either late 14[SUP]th[/SUP] or the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] edition, as such the then current regulations have to be applied.

You say you find the install confusing and so would recommend its replacement? The customer pays through the nose for unnecessary work because you don’t understand it?


Mike did everyone a favour by starting this thread.

He certainly did. He's a decent chap and you can tell he likes to help those who are inexperienced and encourage them to see their mistakes, which I guess was your meaning Tony.

 

[Darkwood]

Ok so here's the H&S red tape approach...

1-We need to cordon the garage off.
2-Getting the family into emergency digs too...
3-Approaching the fuseboards should only be done with full PPE (same level of protection as if you were racking in a big supply).
4-Until the Emergency DNO arrives to fully isolate this aged install we recommend a police cordon too just in case someone gets too drunk and mistakes it for their house.

5-Then and only then can we get an Electrician in to gut this highly dangerous install and fully rewire.

NOTE !! If the rewire is done by a Electrical Trainee DI then go to No-1 of this post and follow the instructions.
-

 

[GLENNSPARK]

That was said tongue in cheek Tony.

I didn't know the answer. I wouldn't have taken the job.

yep agreed..

better to stay away from anything `taxing` like that eh hippy?...

 

[happysteve]

But the regulations are not retrospective, it’s stated in the first few pages of the current regulations and every previous edition before.

That install is either late 14[SUP]th[/SUP] or the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] edition, as such the then current regulations have to be applied.

Mike did everyone a favour by starting this thread.

He did! Thank you, all, it's been an interesting read.

A question about old regs: as someone new to all this, I'm aware there's a lot of history in terms of how things used to be (loved happyhippydad's posting of the 1st edition!) Those with the benefit of age and wisdom will instinctively know, "Oh yeah, that used to be standard, that's fine..." How important is it to have a working knowledge of the old regs? Your comment above suggests it needs to be quite detailed ("... the then current regs have to be applied...") Just wondered if you'd recommend sourcing old copies of the 14th edition off flea bay, or if there's a more easily digestible "here's how they did it when ah were a lad" document?

Finally, has there ever been a change whereby the IEE said, "Sh!t! We got that wrong! Christ on a bike that was dangerous! What were we thinking!? No, if you see this, it really has to come out." ?

Thanks again.

 

[Silly Sausage]

Finally, has there ever been a change whereby the IEE said, "Sh!t! We got that wrong!

Don't know about the IET, but keep your eyes on that 3 phase question, I've got a confession to make!!!

 

[Knobhead]

Finally, has there ever been a change whereby the IEE said, "Sh!t! We got that wrong!

Many times, usually about every three years when the coffers are running a bit low.

 

[R G]

Ok so here's the H&S red tape approach...

1-We need to cordon the garage off.
2-Getting the family into emergency digs too...
3-Approaching the fuseboards should only be done with full PPE (same level of protection as if you were racking in a big supply).
4-Until the Emergency DNO arrives to fully isolate this aged install we recommend a police cordon too just in case someone gets too drunk and mistakes it for their house.

5-Then and only then can we get an Electrician in to gut this highly dangerous install and fully rewire.

NOTE !! If the rewire is done by a Electrical Trainee DI then go to No-1 of this post and follow the instructions.
-

I often recommend that the family moves out , a tent in the back garden is the most economic way .
for EICRs I always carry a tent in the back of the van.
PS they need to save as much as possible for the remedial work,, Ha Ha Ha

 

[shanky887614]

I often recommend that the family moves out , a tent in the back garden is the most economic way .

PS they need to save as much as possible for the remedial work,, Ha Ha Ha

You forgot asbestos removal team called by the Electrical Trainee brigade

 

[Badged01]

..... How important is it to have a working knowledge of the old regs? .....

None at all.

When you conduct an EICR you do it against the latest reg -- currently 17th! -- and list any shortfalls against the 17th, not any other previous regs. You then apply your 'engineering' expertise as to the "safety" or not of any deviations you find (The C1/2/3 codings). Hence it doesn't matter what version of regs they were installed to, do you consider it 'safe' for continued use or not.

BS7671 does contains a caveat in its intro with words to the effect that older installations may not conform to the newest regs (17th) and that it does not make them unsafe for further use or need to be upgraded to the 17th regs if they dont conform. You as the inspector using your experience and knowledge of electrical matters are the sole arbitrator of a devations safety. Do you think it safe or not?

There is also a lot of further 'guidance' from the like of the ESC who give indicative codings for common shortfalls against the current regs. You would be prudent to follow these (e.g. lack of RCD protection being C2 in specific circumstances) as they are the technical authority backed by the IET and all the major electrical bodies (e.g. NICEIC/ECA). You wouldn't want to be stepping upto the plate to argue against those in a court of law!

 

[LED Lighting]

Can't see much wrong with these but how I look at it and sell it to my customers
1 x 5way waylex to test is £100
2 x 5way waylex to test is £200

Looking at your example above I would charge £280 + VAT to inspect that, but for £325 + vat they can have a new mk cu with full RCD protection and everything in one board and that will include a full test cert valid for 10 years.

99% of my customer go for that option

if family a little short on cash can drop it to £250+vat if needed and still good profit in half day work

all well and good changing cus all day but sometimes an inspection is better but look at the price and value for money

most customers want to see a change when they shell out a few hundred pounds

 

[R G]

Always do an initial test on the circuits , and an inspection on the property , determine from that whats required , if its just a board change , so be it , depends what the client wants and is willing to pay for really , I always charge for the initial pre test , but offer this as a deposit for any works , don't always go down the road of a full blown EICR ,unless the client wants it, but all the testing has to be done first before committing yourself ,,,

 

[MDJ]

Can't see much wrong with these but how I look at it and sell it to my customers
1 x 5way waylex to test is £100
2 x 5way waylex to test is £200

Looking at your example above I would charge £280 + VAT to inspect that, but for £325 + vat they can have a new mk cu with full RCD protection and everything in one board and that will include a full test cert valid for 10 years.

99% of my customer go for that option

if family a little short on cash can drop it to £250+vat if needed and still good profit in half day work

all well and good changing cus all day but sometimes an inspection is better but look at the price and value for money

most customers want to see a change when they shell out a few hundred pounds

There is no way you could give a 10 year certificate for that premises, it is 30 years old in places now, and agree with Ray, you need to test the circuits before replacing the board otherwise the job could be a can of worms.

 

[MDJ]

The question here is does it have to be replaced or do we recommend it is replaced. I see too many Jobs where some --- in a suit enters the property for a so called free EICR and without even getting the test kit out tells the house owner you need a new Board because that is dangerous and not up to regulations. Some poor old biddy then shells out up to a grand and for no reason. The job I stuck up as an example was to show the inexperienced guys here that you should never judge a book by it's cover because one day you may get caught out. That Job I looked at was old and I would have loved to rip the lot out and stick a new board in there, But and this is the point, after testing the property it would have been fraud to tell the house holder it had to be replaced. I recommended it and gave valid reasons why, but when asked the question "is it dangerous, does it have to be replaced" I had to be honest and say no, leaving it there will not be dangerous, and the new generation coming along need to understand that testing and inspecting needs to be carried out properly and not just bodged up and taking a grand from someone the norm.

 

[R G]

When I worked for a DNO contracting side , (mention no name) , thats exactly what it was like , a suit would turn up talk the client into anything , get their deposit , we go in find untold faults sometimes to sort out , but its all about sales as far as the company go , did anybody see that watchdog programme in the early 90s about all that sort of thing ,,,