how to successfully approach manufacturer for information

[s harris]

Hi

I wondered if I could ask for advice on how to succeed in getting some basic technical information from the manufacturer of consumer electrical equipment. Does anyone have any pointers, or thoughts please?

The item is a coffee machine which I recently had to test but I couldn't find any earthed metallic points on the body to carry out an earth continuity test. So I took a picture of the label, attached it and emailed the manufacturer as follows:

Hi

I tried PAT testing this coffee maker earlier today but could not find any earthed metallic conductive part on the body upon which to measure earth
continuity. I tried all visible metallic parts and accessible screws. Please could you advise where on the body can be accessed using a probe for an earth continuity test?

Thank you

I received an initial response asking for proof of purchase and further photographs, which I could not provide, to which I responded:

Thank you for your reply.

I can provide you with a photo of the close-up of the label which I took at the premises on Friday.

However I can't take the photos you would like me to provide right now because I did not buy the product and I am no longer in the same location
as the product.

I'm asking the question as it was my job to do portable appliance testing on items of equipment at that premises and I couldn't locate an earthed
point anywhere on the model to adequately carry out the test for earth continuity.

As I hope to revisit the premises in the future to carry out the electrical safety test for earth continuity, I thought I'd ask you where there is an
accessible earthed point on the model.

Please could you let me know where the testing point is on the model (Coffee maker ******)?

Many thanks

Here is the reply:

This is commercially sensitive and we would not share that level of technical specifications with customers. It does meet all food safety standards as per British and European Regulations.

I sincerely apologise for the inconvenience caused and I'm sorry I could not offer a more favourable reply.

If I can be of further assistance, please reply to this email directly.

How can I respond in such a way to get the information I want?

Many thanks, any advice is appreciated.

 

[DPG]

Is it definitely class 1?

 

[s harris]

Is it definitely class 1?

Hi DPG,

Thanks for replying.

I'd have to say yes as there's no double insulation class II symbol anywhere on the (nearly new) machine, even though it looks very, very plastic. Rather thick (unmarked) lead and (annoyingly) a moulded plug.

The instruction manual contains this section, though there is no mention in the specification of Class of equipment.

 

[DPG]

Is it a reputable make? I'm surprised it doesn't state class 1 or 2 in the manual.

I'd reply to them stating that equipment like this needs to be regularly tested to comply with ISITEE legislation, and that they are duty bound to give sufficient information to enable this.

 

[westward10]

What is the make and model number. A lot of these of these domestic type machines assuming that is what it is have metal over the plastic casing which requires no earth.

 

[DPG]

What is the make and model number. A lot of these of these domestic type machines assuming that is what it is have metal over the plastic casing which requires no earth.

Should be stated as class II then though.

Is it CE marked ?

 

[s harris]

Is it a reputable make? I'm surprised it doesn't state class 1 or 2 in the manual.

I'd reply to them stating that equipment like this needs to be regularly tested to comply with ISITEE legislation, and that they are duty bound to give sufficient information to enable this.

Thank you DPG. I didn't know manufacturers of electrical equipment were duty bound to enable this. Do you happen to know which instrument of legislation applies to manufacturers?
...I'm pretty sure all of the below apply to employers and employees:
The Health & Safety at Work Act 1974,
The Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999,
The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989,
The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992
The Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998.

 

[DPG]

Thank you DPG. I didn't know manufacturers of electrical equipment were duty bound to enable this. Do you happen to know which instrument of legislation applies to manufacturers?
...I'm pretty sure none of the below apply to employers and employees:
The Health & Safety at Work Act 1974,
The Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999,
The Electricity at Work Regulations 1989,
The Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992
The Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations 1998.

I don't know of any specific regulation, but how can their equipment be tested for safety if they won't give basic information out?

 

[s harris]

 

[s harris]

Only metal parts accessible are: faceplate / handles / knobs / drip feed nozzle / grille (mounted on plastic drip tray).
Four screws are underneath. Two have no connection to earth. The other two were set so deep inside the probe will not reach (not even with a Megger super long thin probe).

 

[westward10]

It is highly unlikely those parts need to be earthed they a mostly 'bling'. You can probably see on the cord sheath if it is two or three core most are three but the earth is probably utilised internally. It is Class I or Class I/II.

 

[s harris]

I don't know of any specific regulation, but how can their equipment be tested for safety if they won't give basic information out?

Ah, sorry, I meant to say 'ALL of the below apply to employers and employees', not 'none'. I would like to quote legislation to support my request, but I don't think any of the above legislation applies to manufacturers of electrical equipment, just to employers and employees using that equipment at work.

 

[s harris]

It is highly unlikely those parts need to be earthed they a mostly 'bling'. You can probably see on the cord sheath if it is two or three core most are three but the earth is probably utilised internally. It is Class I or Class I/II.

Thank you Westward10.
The cord is quite thick. Sorry I don't know what 'Class I/II' means.

 

[DPG]

Thank you Westward10.
The cord is quite thick. Sorry I don't know what 'Class I/II' means.

Surely that's a fundamental thing to be aware of if you are doing PAT/ ISITEE testing?

Class II is double insulated, or a single layer of reinforced insulation.

Edit: sorry, have just realised what you meant.

 

[westward10]

Thank you Westward10.
The cord is quite thick. Sorry I don't know what 'Class I/II' means.

Sorry have probably confused a bit. What you have is a Class I appliance however all the earthed components are encased in what is essentially a Class II enclosure but realistically the appliance is Class I so I called it Class I/II but it is Class I.

 

[DPG]

I agree. It has to be a class I, since there is no class II identifier either on the appliance or in the manual

 

[snowhead]

If it's not marked it must be Class 1.

Skip to 13 min onwards, on this John Ward video, he explains why the outer metal surfaces don't need to be earthed.

 

[pirate]

I concur with @westward10 on this. it's a hybrid Class I/II. There are no metal parts on the body, which is not uncommon these days. I would state it as Class I but also state it as tested as Class II due to no accessible metal parts.
If there's no metal, the shock risk is somewhat low...

 

[Petej999]

I concur with @westward10 on this. it's a hybrid Class I/II. There are no metal parts on the body, which is not uncommon these days. I would state it as Class I but also state it as tested as Class II due to no accessible metal parts.
If there's no metal, the shock risk is somewhat low...

Just ask politely explaining your details and problems, most suppliers will help

 

[loz2754]

The first line in the manual as shown in the photo above says "this appliance must be earthed".
Therefore it is Class I.

As there appear to be no exposed conductive parts, as indicated by the OP when conducting the test, how would we know if the appliance earth connection has failed? Or that one or more of the metallic parts that are accessible should, in fact, give a continuity reading?

Very poor on the part of the manufacturer if you ask me!