is this normal or are these cowboys?

A

Andrew77

I've just had electricians in to do a whole house rewire. I think his intention was to have 4 guys on the job but as it turned out they always seemed to be away on other jobs. In the end they rushed the work to get finished on the last day. The guys attitude is that the job is complete but the fact is there's alot of unfinished and badly done stuff. He wanted paying for the work that was done but I told him I wouldn't pay until it was complete, he was rather put out. I read alot of internet that told me they would be testing the work when it was done, I asked him about this and he said they test as they go along, is that normal? I'm worried I'll get to the end of this and be expected to pay without receiving the paperwork I'm due. I picked this guy because he seemed genuine and at the price I'm paying I was expecting a gold class service. Also they never fixed the conduits into the chases, would it be normal practice to leave these flapping around for the plasterer to fix in? Finally, I daren't ask if they bothered to earth bond the water, would that normally be part of a house rewire?

Sorry to come on here and fire of a load of questions like this. It's just really hard to look up all the answers I'm looking for in my phone as I have no internet connection at home. Thanks in advance for reassurance that this all sounds normal, our warnings that I need to be careful about when I actually pay this guy.
Andrew
 
Hi - good idea not to make final payment until the job is complete. But progress payments are usual. It does depend on your contract with him, which can be verbal. Some things can be tested as they go along as there are dead tests, but live tests are done when it's, well, live. At the end you are due both an Electrical Installation Certificate (about 5 pages long) and notification to your local building office inspectors. Have you confirmed the contractor is registered on the competent persons list? Home - http://www.electricalcompetentperson.co.uk/

In terms of the quality of the installation work, it would be easier to comment with some nice pics. But I would always fix conduit and leave nothing to chance with the plasterer :)

Edit - yes, bonding to gas and water are a mandatory part of a rewire. It is not complete or safe without it.
 
Andrew77 said:
I've just had electricians in to do a whole house rewire. I think his intention was to have 4 guys on the job but as it turned out they always seemed to be away on other jobs. In the end they rushed the work to get finished on the last day. The guys attitude is that the job is complete but the fact is there's alot of unfinished and badly done stuff. He wanted paying for the work that was done but I told him I wouldn't pay until it was complete, he was rather put out. I read alot of internet that told me they would be testing the work when it was done, I asked him about this and he said they test as they go along, is that normal? I'm worried I'll get to the end of this and be expected to pay without receiving the paperwork I'm due. I picked this guy because he seemed genuine and at the price I'm paying I was expecting a gold class service. Also they never fixed the conduits into the chases, would it be normal practice to leave these flapping around for the plasterer to fix in? Finally, I daren't ask if they bothered to earth bond the water, would that normally be part of a house rewire?

Sorry to come on here and fire of a load of questions like this. It's just really hard to look up all the answers I'm looking for in my phone as I have no internet connection at home. Thanks in advance for reassurance that this all sounds normal, our warnings that I need to be careful about when I actually pay this guy.
Andrew
Click to expand...
Sounds like a fix and foxtrot oscar outfit to me
 
I would put together a snagging list and send it to them. Let them come back and complete the works on the snagging list and stipulate that you will pay once its completed, proof that building control have been notified and you have a copy of the test certificate. Some people use the certificate as a bit of a bargaining tool in case the customer doesn't want to cough up...But if the electrician has it in black and white that payment will be forthcoming once work is to your satisfaction, building control have been notified and you have your cert in your hand I cant see why there should be an issue.
 
He is required to issue an Electrical Installation Certificate to you the person ordering the work. He may not withold this irregardless of payment as @hightower correctly observes "dont let him use it as a bargaining chip". Testing is required as work progresses to ensure wiring is ok. But at the end there is a full set of tests one being "dead" tests the other being live tests. Then the EIC is issued to you. Bonding to all services should be noted on the EIC as well. i.e. gas oil water. Plastering is a matter for the contract you have entered into. I stipulate I will fill to within 2mm of the surface, and you must get a plasterer to finish.
 
whereabouts in the UK?. it might be advisable to get an electrician to give the job a quick check over. one of us might be close to you and be able to assist.
 
I don't think there is anything to comment on here, as the OP hasn't really given us anything to speculate about, except some lose conduit. And as he was 'last seen' yesterday at 9.30pm, one would expect some feedback from your responses, even if it was from his phone.

I would normally expect to have been paid before I had time to complete the certificate.
 
Midwest said:
I don't think there is anything to comment on here, as the OP hasn't really given us anything to speculate about, except some lose conduit. And as he was 'last seen' yesterday at 9.30pm, one would expect some feedback from your responses, even if it was from his phone.

I would normally expect to have been paid before I had time to complete the certificate.
Click to expand...

Yeah sorry, I was too busy making good all the places where they smashed holes in everything. Meant to reply yesterday but, it is hard from this phone where it keeps crashing all the time.

Thanks for the advice.

I did a snagging list, but the guy didn't like that at all, he's begrudgingly coming back to rectify a few things, and I haven't even included half of the problems. Cause I'm made to feel bad, I'm dealing with most of it myself.

I am worried this certificate will be hard to get though. I never got a schedule of works at the beginning because apparently there wasn't time (there was about 4 weeks). So I'm not sure that the guy really plays by the rules.

I guess what I was wanting to check is, is feeling like you've been raped normal for a rewire note I expect the holes, dust and disruption, but is missed sockets, loose back boxes and no final test normal on a job of this size.

At least I know that I should be expecting that paperwork before I pay, according to most of you.
 
Wouldn't mind seeing an internal pic of the CU, often a good indicator to the standard of work.
 
Two sides to every story and all that. I am not implying that the op is wrong in his/her assumptions that the work is in some way sub standard or incomplete. But I do here alarm bells when I see the "price" of the job mentioned several times along with gold plated ect ect. Rewires can often by time consuming and do require the company doing the work to outlay £££ to just get the 1st stage of the work completed.
Maybe if the op did actually post some pictures of the problem areas, A picture of the inside of the consumer unit (Fuse board) would also give us all a decent idea of where you are at with this job.
 
Andrew77 said:
Yeah sorry, I was too busy making good all the places where they smashed holes in everything. Meant to reply yesterday but, it is hard from this phone where it keeps crashing all the time.

I guess what I was wanting to check is, is feeling like you've been raped normal for a rewire note I expect the holes, dust and disruption, but is missed sockets, loose back boxes and no final test normal on a job of this size.

At least I know that I should be expecting that paperwork before I pay, according to most of you.
Click to expand...

No offense but You complained about holes in the first paragraph in your post then noted that you expected them further on in your post. (my bold)

Re-wires in general are very disruptive and dependent on the nature of the building fabric can be very messy and often require quite a bit of bashing about. Its down to your contractual agreement who and how the make good repairs are done. I usually do at least a bond fill of all chasing out (agreed as extra in the cost of the job) ready for a top skim of finish. This way I can ensure that all the boxes, conduit and fixings are secure and covered as required.

So in answer to your question, yes there should be no loose back boxes, missing sockets (assuming these missing sockets where agreed to be installed originally) or conduit and yes you should receive an appropriate completion certificate of inspection and test results for the install.
 
Here is a photo of the inside of the CU as suggested (hopefully). It was easy to get inside as they kindly stripped the threads of the closure screws.

I think I've been misunderstood slightly here. I'm not angry about ask the access demolition, I was expecting it, and I even said to the guy- "do what you need to do to get through".

Snagging now complete, I say complete but some things still weren't done, but I done have the spirit to complain again. At least they've left me with work I can do myself ' no, you mustn't touch electrics! It's against the law', you know what... When its this hard to get someone else to do it right what do they expect.

The guy is asking for payment before certificate and part P being issued to me. At least I know that's not the way round it should be. I seriously doubt whether I would get s**t in terms of documentation of I paid first. The invoice looks like it was written by a child.

View attachment 35077

View attachment 35078
 
The inside does look a bit of a mess. The cables entering the CU to the left have no grommet/gland to prevent abrasion with the metal knockout and to maintain the IP rating. Looks the same from the cables entering the back of the CU, should have some grommet strip, and probably from the top. I cant see any cables terminated to suggest if the gas & water services have been bonded (these may be terminated o/s the CU)? There is something strange with the cable terminated into the first MCB on the right? A pictured panned back a bit and including the top of the CU would be useful.

Although the tidiness of cables terminated inside a CU, doesn't suggest the installation has not be carried out correctly etc, it does show a lack of pride by the installer. But I've seen worse.

Is your installer a member of a scheme?

PS a picture of the front of the CU, including any labels would also be useful.
 
That is a poor install for a "rewire", some circuits are clearly existing. The first cpc on the right of the earth bar is tinned copper wrapped in tape. The knock out to the back leaves conductors exposed to a combustible surface. No mechanical protection to the left side entry cables.
Sorry to say and I know people work to different standards but that is a rough job.
I too have been looking at the first circuit conductor trying to make it out, looks existing as someone has marked it, does it tally to the tinned cpc, is it rubber?
Op what does the first circuit do, the one by the main switch.
 
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Here is a photo panted back a bit, one of the front with the labels (I can just about read them) and one of where the earth seems to split - one goes to the earth stake outside, one into the box and one into the ceiling somewhere. I don't suppose there's any way of telling if the water is earth bonded? I don't have gas. I'd I asked the electrician he would tell me they did it but I don't think I trust him.

There will be 1 old circuit which is the old cooker, the new one is in a different room, the old cable is to come out in a few weeks time, so bit worth renewing.

View attachment 35080

View attachment 35081

View attachment 35082
 
Oh dear, doesn't look very good. Where is the CU in relation to that first pic? A picture slightly panned out of that first shot would be useful.

Being in a scheme may be a good thing, for you. Sharp intake of breath. It's very easy for us to sit here and criticise other peoples 'work' or standards, but I've seen neater bowls of spaghetti.
 
Andrew77 said:
Installer is a member of NAPIT apparently. Is this so bad that I should be worried?
Click to expand...

You can contact napit to confirm their membership and with any concerns including the withholding of certificates or job dissatisfaction and that should serve as a gentle prod to the installer.
 
Andrew77 said:
Is this so bad that I should be worried?
Click to expand...

Purposely replying to this part of your question, just because it is not neat, doesn't mean it's unsafe.

I thing you need to get your snagging list together and have that completed. It may be that you would have to employ another electrician to inspect this work, to get a real sense of whether this rewire has been correctly done. Making any assessment by looking at pictures, is not the way it should be done. As your electrician is registered with Napit, there may be a facility for them to have a view, but I suspect they will say the contract is between you & your electrician. But you can complain to them, they will have a complaints procedure.
 
There is no mcb cover on the board. No fire barrier in the ceiling. Can you show a pic of the cutout to see how it is earthed. Earth terminal needs a warning notice. Agree with Midwest, untidy doesn't mean unsafe but it certainly reflects the standard of work.
 
Having seen the pictures I concur it certainly is untidy...or as a tradesman would say rough. I would say there are a few things that we could probably point too as areas for attention. Nothing life threatening but I would be giving Napit a call if the electrician does not provide you with a satisfactory job. Personally I don't like the way the cables are just slung in and also the routing around the copper pipe is...."interesting". I don't know weather you should be worried...but if this is the "best" part of the install then it certainly does not look great.
On balance I think my advice would be to get an independent report done by another electrician. I know this may cost you another £150 or even more depending on the size of the installation needing checked...But for that you should then be armed with a report listing the faults that need rectifying if any. As said maybe NAPIT would send someone out from their own list to check it over so no need for you to pay for another independent electrician.
I suppose it all depends on if you are still willing to let the electrician involved to rectify any issues...if the relationship has broken down then you can only call NAPIT - email them those pictures if the facility allows. Maybe someone on here who is with NAPIT knows more of their procedures.
Also could you try to get a better shot/picture of circuit 1 on the right (Cooker) - the red cable seems an odd color. At first glance it even looks like VIR.....which if it is needs replacing.
 
I think NAPIT'S response would be to discuss it with the contractor to try and resolve the issues before they got involved. Third party opinion is the way to to go but as you say this is another outlay which it may be possible to recoup.
 
Diddy said:
Having seen the pictures I concur it certainly is untidy...or as a tradesman would say rough. I would say there are a few things that we could probably point too as areas for attention. Nothing life threatening but I would be giving Napit a call if the electrician does not provide you with a satisfactory job. Personally I don't like the way the cables are just slung in and also the routing around the copper pipe is...."interesting". I don't know weather you should be worried...but if this is the "best" part of the install then it certainly does not look great.
On balance I think my advice would be to get an independent report done by another electrician. I know this may cost you another £150 or even more depending on the size of the installation needing checked...But for that you should then be armed with a report listing the faults that need rectifying if any. As said maybe NAPIT would send someone out from their own list to check it over so no need for you to pay for another independent electrician.
I suppose it all depends on if you are still willing to let the electrician involved to rectify any issues...if the relationship has broken down then you can only call NAPIT - email them those pictures if the facility allows. Maybe someone on here who is with NAPIT knows more of their procedures.
Also could you try to get a better shot/picture of circuit 1 on the right (Cooker) - the red cable seems an odd color. At first glance it even looks like VIR.....which if it is needs replacing.
Click to expand...
Do not get anyone else in to look at check etc on the installation do to do anymore work on it at all. Till napit have been in touch if you do let anyone else or do anymore work napit will wash there hands of it.
 
geordie said:
Do not get anyone else in to look at check etc on the installation do to do anymore work on it at all. Till napit have been in touch if you do let anyone else or do anymore work napit will wash there hands of it.
Click to expand...
Why can't a third party "look" at it, we all are. I don't know much about NAPIT but are you saying they will intervene prior to negotiations between the op and contractor.
 
Andrew77 said:
The guy is asking for payment before certificate and part P being issued to me. At least I know that's not the way round it should be. I seriously doubt whether I would get s**t in terms of documentation of I paid first.
Click to expand...

Why shouldn't he ask for payment before issuing the certificate? it can take weeks for the part P schemes to issue their papaerwork so why should an electrician have to suffer through their incompetence?
 
NAPIT won't do anything, I've tried getting them to show an interest in a dangerous installation in the past and all they say is that you have to speak to the installer.
 
westward10 said:
Why can't a third party "look" at it, we all are. I don't know much about NAPIT but are you saying they will intervene prior to negotiations between the op and contractor.
Click to expand...
Have been though this with someone who had a very dangerous install done. And because a 3rd party i.e. Me had been to the property napit said there is nothing they can do. Customer had no choice as the cooker casing was live.
 
davesparks said:
NAPIT won't do anything, I've tried getting them to show an interest in a dangerous installation in the past and all they say is that you have to speak to the installer.
Click to expand...
Thought as much, have had this with NICEIC. Tried to report a fused neutral single phase submain, not interested.
 
God awful, I couldn't imagine doing a board to that standard let alone leaving it as finished and demanding payment! Even the circuit names look like ----!
 
Obviously without seeing the install up close in full then its always going to be difficult to make an informed opinion.
But in answer to your thread title, my initial instinct based on your pictures and what information you have presented thus far is -yes it looks like the said installer is a cowboy or at least not conscientious about his workmanship. At this point I'd probably get a second opinion from another electrician and then give the original installer a chance to rectify any problems.
 
asa bove.^^^. an independent visual inspection before you've made them final payment would not cost a lot, especially if . say, one of us were close to you. maybe you could post your location and see?
 
If you ring NAPIT and give all the details re the Electrician and your property they will tell you over the phone if Building control have or are being notified!
 
It's all too late. I have made the final payment.

A second opinion on the safety of lack thereof would be helpful. If anyone cover s the Ipswich area could give me an idea of what you'd charge to do an inspection of the work that would be good.
 

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