Kitchen wiring

[MDJ]

ah yes you can have fuses which fit in there as well, but if using the switches to control sockets no need to fuse down on the 20 amp ring, the switches are 20 amp and the plug tops have the fuses in them, but you can add the fuses to the grid if you like, lots of makes do the grids now, you can have vertually any label you like engraved in the switches.

 

[MDJ]

the list is almost endless, different switches, fuses neons, all different colours etc GridSwitch 20A 1W Double Pole Cooker Hood

 

[Guest55]

I love a nice grid myself with marked 20 amp switches saying what they do, I like to put the grid on a 20 amp ring main supply for the appliances and have general sockets (ie toaster/microwave liquidizer)on a seperate ring, there are some lovely looking flush plates today which are very nice.

theres always 1 flash bast**d.
bet you were the first kid in your class to get puma trainers as well.
;-)

 

[shocking_eg]

Why 20a ring MDJ ?
Couldn't you just run a 20a radial ? Don't see what your gaining with the ring situation ?

 

[MDJ]

yeah you could do a radial, we just added rings, I wouldn't like the idea of a single 2.5 holding the load of several appliances even if there is only a 20 amp back up and to be fair the appliances probably wouldn't draw 20 amps, but its just the way we used to do them, just our choice and design.

 

[shocking_eg]

Personal choice I guess lol

I'd rather be another roll of cable better off lol

 

[MDJ]

Don't doubt it :rolleyes2:

 

[Engineer54]

all good and well, but why would you want to cut off the factory sealed plug off an appliance and waste time wiring it in ?

so much quicker to plug in the appliance !

and most manufacturers state you cant remove the factory sealed plug otherwise the warranty is invalid !

No they don't, and No it doesn't!!

 

[Engineer54]

My intention is to use the RCBOs as double pole isolation, as they will be in the cupboard next to the appliances, in a disc board which is solely for these appliances. Would that be acceptable?

That is a totally daft idea!!

 

[telectrix]

you need one of these,

and 1 of these

sod the switches.

 

[Engineer54]

I have my own way of dealing with the double fused built-in kitchen appliance phenomenon!! Here, in the staff dorm' kitchens, built-in appliances will be fed via local SCHUKO type outlets from DP FCU above worktops. (i never have and never will mount outlets in kitchen cabinets) In the UK if you want to keep everything to BS, then you can use 5A/15A outlets.... Problem solved!! lol!!

 

[shocking_eg]

No they don't, and No it doesn't!!

Yes and yes !!! Lol

 

[Engineer54]

Yes and yes !!! Lol

Show me a manufactures statement to those affects, because they would be more than foolish to do so!!

-

 

[Heisenberg]

Show me a manufactures statement to those affects, because they would be more than foolish to do so!!

-

Miele Dishwasher Warranty| Miele

Section 4 Line 7 rrr:

 

[MDJ]

 

[Simlec]

Miele Dishwasher Warranty| Miele

Section 4 Line 7 rrr:

That's not saying "don't cut the plug off"

 

[Geordie Spark]

A flex outlet plate behind the appliances....are you planning on hard-wiring the appliances :s ?

He'll Have a hard job shoving a 13 amp plug into a flex outlet plate won't he?? :90:

( I just LOVE you sig BTW :love: )

 

[wade88]

It's just saying if your not a Miele Engineer, your not qualified to haha. Darn

 

[Geordie Spark]

you need one of these,

and 1 of these

sod the switches.

Mind that's a bonny lass ye've married there Tel.

 

[wade88]

Personal choice I guess lol

I'd rather be another roll of cable better off lol

The difference between a ring a radial is a length of cable from the last socket to the CU, unless this dudes kitchen spans a distance greater that 40-50 meters, i think your roll of cable is safe..... you must be welsh. Tight git

 

[Geordie Spark]

how often do you actually turn off you appliances ?

Last week as it happens ........ when me tumble dryer caught fire.


Thankfully I had a FCU above the bench top ............

 

[Geordie Spark]

correct me if my eyesights wrong tel but isn't that plug on the right you've put up ilegal? tut

Not so much illegal ... just bloody difficult to fit into the sockets in my kitchen.

mind you .. with a big enough hammer ...........

 

[Geordie Spark]

I love a nice grid myself with marked 20 amp switches saying what they do, I like to put the grid on a 20 amp ring main supply for the appliances and have general sockets (ie toaster/microwave liquidizer)on a seperate ring, there are some lovely looking flush plates today which are very nice.

:rolleyes2:

 

[Engineer54]

Miele Dishwasher Warranty| Miele

Section 4 Line 7 rrr:

You mean this section....

Limitations of the Miele Service Certificate,


The Miele Service Certificate will not cover costs for repairs
where a fault is due to the following:

7. Repairs or modifications not performed by service agents trained and authorised by Miele.

Your trying to apply a clause that doesn't fit. They are talking about inappropriate servicing by non authorised agents, and were talking about installation method. Any installation method that complies with BS7871 can't be used a a warranty get out clause by the service agent.

1. Improper installation, e.g. non-compliance with relevant safety regulations and written operating and installation instructions.

That being BS7671 in the case of the UK... Now you tell me what fault they could possibly be talking about by removing a plug and wiring directly into a FCU?? Remembering that other EU countries have no plug top fuse.

In other words there is nothing in these warranty conditions legally stating, removing a plug top of this appliance and connecting said appliance in a manner that fully complies to UK standards etc, will or can invalidate a warranty...


And nor will any other appliance manufacturers warranty conditions...

 

[shocking_eg]

Still a pointless task if you ask me

 

[Heisenberg]

You mean this section....

7. Repairs or modifications not performed by service agents trained and authorised by Miele.

Your trying to apply a clause that doesn't fit. They are talking about inappropriate servicing by non authorised agents, and were talking about installation method. Any installation method that complies with BS7871 can't be used a a warranty get out clause by the service agent.

And I think you're trying to explain the clause in a way that simply supports your side of the discussion. You seem to be assuming that a service agent only undertakes a single function 'servicing' but that is just not true, they also undertake installations. That aside, the important word in that clause is 'Modifications'
The item in question will come with moulded plug top, by cutting off said plug you are thereby making modifications to said item. If the person doing the modifying is not trained/approved by Miele then you have just killed your warranty.

Now this bit might strike you as strange, but I would really love for you to be right and for me to be wrong. Miele might be an exception, as they pride themselves on service, and if your going to be paying the sort of cash they ask for their white goods then I should blinking well think so too.
However, I consider insurance legalized theft, and warranties are simply another form of insurance. I just know from previous insurance claim dealings that I have had in the past, that these 'slipperier than an eel coated in fairy liquid' persons with disputed lineage, will screw you at every single chance they get, and if they can twist what is written to work in their favour then they will.

So in summing up, I understand what you are saying and to all intents and purposes I agree, I just think that the world we presently live in means companies, and the bean counters that now run them, will always carp on the little guy from a great height if given half the chance.

And with that waffle over, I'm off down the pub.

Cheers

 

[shocking_eg]

And I think you're trying to explain the clause in a way that simply supports your side of the discussion. You seem to be assuming that a service agent only undertakes a single function 'servicing' but that is just not true, they also undertake installations. That aside, the important word in that clause is 'Modifications'
The item in question will come with moulded plug top, by cutting off said plug you are thereby making modifications to said item. If the person doing the modifying is not trained/approved by Miele then you have just killed your warranty.

Now this bit might strike you as strange, but I would really love for you to be right and for me to be wrong. Miele might be an exception, as they pride themselves on service, and if your going to be paying the sort of cash they ask for their white goods then I should blinking well think so too.
However, I consider insurance legalized theft, and warranties are simply another form of insurance. I just know from previous insurance claim dealings that I have had in the past, that these 'slipperier than an eel coated in fairy liquid' persons with disputed lineage, will screw you at every single chance they get, and if they can twist what is written to work in their favour then they will.

So in summing up, I understand what you are saying and to all intents and purposes I agree, I just think that the world we presently live in means companies, and the bean counters that now run them, will always carp on the little guy from a great height if given half the chance.

And with that waffle over, I'm off down the pub.

Cheers

Good post !!

I know from experience hence never cutting moulded plug tops off since I had trouble with an appliance and they wouldn't warrantee it as I had cut off the plug !!

There's a reason they fit moulded plugs you know !! And I can see why..

 

[Engineer54]

I'm 100% right!! Contact the consumer rights people (can't remember the official name) or a consumer specialised solicitor. They will confirm what i'm saying is 100% legally correct.

The only way they can void a warranty for removing a factory fitted plug top, is if the connection method doesn't comply with the Codes/Reg's of the country concerned. eg, a dangerous DIY lash up tape job, or connected (via plug top/FCU) with maybe the polarity reversed etc!! ...lol!!

It is normally the authorized service agents that come out with all this crap, not the actual manufacturers. The only reason manufacturers provided a plug-top (moulded or otherwise) in the first place, is because of the EU regulation stating that all appliances must be supplied with a suitable plug top corresponding to the country of final destination!! Contacting the manufacturers direct, or as a last resort a solicitors letter to the service agent etc, will always change their mind pretty dam fast!!

An appliance manufacturer or it's agents cannot circumvent recognised/official codes/Regulations within a given country to suit themselves. They can recommend or even stipulate RCD protection in some cases, they can stipulate a minimum cable/flex size, installation positions etc, but that's about it... It's the same with BS 1362 fuses, it's often stated here that manufacturers state the appliance must be protected by a such and such rated fuse. This can only apply to the size of flexible cable, not to the appliance itself!! BS 1362 fuses are not and never have been designed for the protection of appliances!!

 

[IzzyS]

I'm with E54 on this one. I almost always remove the plugs from built-in appliances, as most of them don't leave enough room behind them to fit a sheet of A4 paper, never mind a plug.

None of my customers have ever complained that they've been unable to claim on their warranty. (20+ years)

And for those who say how often do you switch it off, I have personal experience of electric shock from trying to disconnect a faulty washing machine that some twonk had decided didn't need one of those "ugly" isolators. I know which I prefer....

 

[Stroppy]

Isolators readily accessible inside a cupboard. Best of both worlds!

 

[telectrix]

one problem with wiring into a FCU is that you may get a service engineer to the appliance, and no matter how knowledgeable he is on repairing the appliance, he might be reluctant to disconnect from FCU , so you could get called out toi dis. and reconnect after the appliance has been repaired/taken away for repair.

- - - Updated - - -

one problem with wiring into a FCU is that you may get a service engineer to the appliance, and no matter how knowledgeable he is on repairing the appliance, he might be reluctant to disconnect from FCU , so you could get called out toi dis. and reconnect after the appliance has been repaired/taken away for repair.

 

[Engineer54]

Isolators readily accessible inside a cupboard. Best of both worlds!

Only in your Worlds!! lol!!:rolleyes2:

 

[Stroppy]

So what's wrong with it?

 

[ackbarthestar]

There are various ways of connecting appliances to the fixed wiring.

The first rule is local isolation and local fusing. The appliance should be designed with overload protection.

Then its up to you how you make the connections. Some kitchen worksurfaces, particularly for fitted appliances do not allow space for a fitted plug at the back so the need for a flex outlet.

I think once you have spent £20k+ on your brand new kitchen with granite work surfaces to plug in or wire in is not an option.

Unfortunately, that doesn't allow for the lack of breadth of competence with some service 'engineers'

I personally like the grid switch assembly where the control and protection for the utility type of appliances are in one place.

Now, there were some concerns regarding the use of several 3kW appliances and the unequal loading on a ring final circuit. Also the rating of the loop in terminals across the input terminals of the 20A DP switches.

However, it will take an electrician to provide a suitable solution.....

 

[Guest55]

So what's wrong with it?

that building regs specify fixed wiring be secured to the permanent fabric of the building - which kitchen cupboards arent.
and it looks like a poverty spec design lol.

 

[Stroppy]

I admit kitchen cupboards are relatively flimsy, but as they are attached to the wall, and each other, and have a worktop stuck on top of them, which itself is bonded to the wall, they surely qualify as immovable permanent structures. Its not like trying to put fixed wiring in a free-standing bedside cabinet which can be moved around by the householder.

 

[Heisenberg]

I'm 100% right!! Contact the consumer rights people (can't remember the official name) or a consumer specialised solicitor. They will confirm what i'm saying is 100% legally correct.

The only way they can void a warranty for removing a factory fitted plug top, is if the connection method doesn't comply with the Codes/Reg's of the country concerned. eg, a dangerous DIY lash up tape job, or connected (via plug top/FCU) with maybe the polarity reversed etc!! ...lol!!

It is normally the authorized service agents that come out with all this crap, not the actual manufacturers. The only reason manufacturers provided a plug-top (moulded or otherwise) in the first place, is because of the EU regulation stating that all appliances must be supplied with a suitable plug top corresponding to the country of final destination!! Contacting the manufacturers direct, or as a last resort a solicitors letter to the service agent etc, will always change their mind pretty dam fast!!

An appliance manufacturer or it's agents cannot circumvent recognised/official codes/Regulations within a given country to suit themselves. They can recommend or even stipulate RCD protection in some cases, they can stipulate a minimum cable/flex size, installation positions etc, but that's about it... It's the same with BS 1362 fuses, it's often stated here that manufacturers state the appliance must be protected by a such and such rated fuse. This can only apply to the size of flexible cable, not to the appliance itself!! BS 1362 fuses are not and never have been designed for the protection of appliances!!

Everything you've said is 100% sound. Unfortunately, as far too many of us know, being on the legal side of a situation is in no way a guarantee of still not getting shafted. Solicitor's letters are all well and good but last time I checked they don't send them out gratis :nonod: and who really wants to spend all the required time arguing back and forth with a supplier, which we both know is what will happen.

At the very least I would make the customer aware of the possibility of future problems, and then let them decide. They can then make any necessary enquiries and you'd be covered.

Cheers

 

[Engineer54]

That was stated as the last resort!!

If you check that warranty you posted again, it quite clearly states in so many words, that both the manufacturer and the customers rights shall be in accordance with the laws of the UK, and further on, that nothing in that warranty will negate your statutory rights!!

All i can say is, if you or your customers are prepared to get shafted by a service agent, by allowing them to take away your legal consumer rights, then more fool you!!

 

[Heisenberg]

That was stated as the last resort!!

If you check that warranty you posted again, it quite clearly states in so many words, that both the manufacturer and the customers rights shall be in accordance with the laws of the UK, and further on, that nothing in that warranty will negate your statutory rights!!

All i can say is, if you or your customers are prepared to get shafted by a service agent, by allowing them to take away your legal consumer rights, then more fool you!!

People in the 'legal right' get shafted on a daily basis and sometimes the only sensible option is to admit defeat. The really foolish thing to do would be to refuse to accept that fact and keep banging on...

 

[Engineer54]

People in the 'legal right' get shafted on a daily basis and sometimes the only sensible option is to admit defeat. The really foolish thing to do would be to refuse to accept that fact and keep banging on...

And why you will always continually get shafted!!