Hi all

my friends brother rang me to say he had drilled a hole in the wall and the power to lights has gone off

yes he has drilled the cable to be fair to him it was in back bedroom of 2 up 2 down terraced house
side of the window and not were yo would expect a cable to be

anyway I went to have a look and chased a bit of plaster off around the cable to see he had drilled a perfect hole bang in the middle of the cable and when i looked closer noticed it was lead sheathed

is it possible in anyway to repair this or should the damaged cable be replaced
I have told him its really old possibly around the 1940s and the house could do with rewiring

it has wylex fuseboard but with the replacement trip switches

on lead sheathed cable does the lead act as a earth?

I havnt had much experience of lead sheathed cables apart from ripping it out on rewires

if i do replace the faulty cable what do i do about the earthing regarding the cpc ? and then does this need rcd protecting all lights 1 circuit no rcd at present

any help and advice appreciated
my thought on it is a rewire for the whole house as it all looks original apart from newer switches and sockets
 
Dont touch it. The inner cores are rubber,and invarably are rot as a pear.As soon as it's disturbed the cores will short onto the lead sheath....only option is rewiring,and if the place still has this stuff the whole lot wants shutting down.
 
The lead was indeed used as the earth bruce. My mothers house down in shrewsbury had this in it together with some vir and other stuff (tinned stranded etc). You mentioned that you think this dates from the 1940s....could be older than that mate...post great war maybe? I think this type of cable has a bitumen insulation as well as paper soaked in a chemical (which is toxic). I would go for a rewire here together with a new board. Incidentally...what is the intake like here? Have the DNO been in recently or is it the old ceramic type?...........
 
cheers wirepuller and glenn sparks
as soon as i saw the lead i told him it was really old and should be replaced all the lot

yes the lead is the type with the bitumen insualtion and paper soacked stuff
looks as if someone has been in at some time as the sockets and switches are fairly modern white plastic

as for the meter and cut out the meter is a new digi one and the cutout is still old style prob 60 or 80A

earthing conductor was under sized as were the tails but prob compliant when they were fitted lol back in the day

also no bonding to water or gas

not sure if the cutout was ceramic type but deffo not new

i will have a better look when i go back and give him the bad news guaranteed i will end up doing it for as cheap as chips as this is my bruvs best mate and first words out his mrs mouth was whats it going to cost lol


would it be pssible to fit a new board of henley blocks and get dno to fit isolator and new tails on there side and just rewire the lights in there entirity if he cant stretch to a full rewire

as if i rewire the lights they will need rcd and will be almost impossible just replace the damaged cable as i will probably disturb the rest


can yo tell me whats required eg
rewire the damaged cable
reire the entire lighting and fit new ccu so i can seperate the up and down lights and protect with rcd upgrade earthing and tails from a henley block leaving the existing wylex in place with the remaining circuits install 10mm main protective bonding to water and gas
I will carry out a pir on all the circuits to check for other damage ie High resistant joints and low IR and High Zs etc

Or just tell him its better to have a full rewire no matter what the cost

he is a good friend of my brother and myself so feel i have to help him out as usual

all jobs i seem to do are the worst and end up doing for free or next to nothing
I will never make any money at this rate keep thinking of advertissing as a free electrician you jsust have to feed me the mrs and kids lol



thanks Wirepuller and glennsparks
 
While i do agree that this old lead shethed cable really needs re-wiring, you tend to find that only the the exposed conductor ends and maybe a couple inches along, within the lead cable will be crumbling or deteriated to a point of imminent desaster the moment you disturb it.
Undamaged lead is virtually impervious to moisture and air, so unless the cable has led a hard life of being continuosly overloaded during it's service, the conductor insulation should be in, not a too bad condition.

The same is also said about the old TRS and CTS sheathed cables. I've personally never found this to be so, ...only the exposed terminated conductors have i seen in a very bad condition. Mostly caused by high the tempretures of light fittings, and overloading at socket outlets, where there were too few outlets provided, when these cables were installed. The TRS T&E cables i stripped out of my parents house were in such good condition, that i used them in my fathers garage to supply his socket outlets. They were still there several years later when we sold the house ....and still in good condition too!!!
 
If money is a big issue and they cannot do as recommended
You probably wont have to rewire the whole of the lighting or fit rcd etc

Its repair of a damaged cable only

If its shooting up past a window,it may be the supply cable to the up light
The probability is that it will be wired to a jb in the attic
Replace with a new cable,but take care not to move or bend or disturb thiose being left in situ
As long as its then surface mounted,the repair is made and part pants wont come into it

s
 
Hi engineer

I have jsut done a job for my mother in law same style and age of house

it also had lead sheathed and as you say apart from at the accessories it was in good condition but at the accessories it had all deteriorated

also had VIR cable some of this was in a worse state completly crumbling in large sections some still good there cpcs of the sockets were jsut bare twisted copper strands which were earthed to the copper pipes of which were few as most was still lead also still had lead piping in the walls for the old gas lamps most of this has been ripped out including all water pipes and gas
someof the joints under the boards were jsust twisted together and taped
most of the accessories were jsut bare conductors as the insualation had gone
someone had done a bit of repair and used tape for insualtion behind some of the switches other jsut left and were touching metal back boxes were they passed through from landing switch to bedroom
I have never tried to mess with lead apart from ripping it out

I think my brothers mate and his mrs will be gutted if i have to tell them to get it all rewired as with everyone at the minute money is tight so guaranteed if i do it it will be free or next to nothing

so whats the safest and cheapest alternative i can give them to as a complete rewire can i just rewire the complete lighting and install a new board and bonding etc

test all the other circuits and if ok leave them be in the the old board for now and replace as and when they can afford which these circuits will probably also be lead or VIR type cable made by BICC as was the mrs mums house


that will be the most expensive shelf he has ever tried to put up and his mrs was after killing him for the lights being off
I TOLD HIM DONT PUT ANYMORE SHELVES UP AND IF YA DO BUY A METAL STUD AND WIRE DETECTER
 
The thing is bruce if you go for a new dis board its notifyable as i am sure you are aware already:earmuffs: which means also a full inspection and test....can you be sure it will all come back ok? I bet your Zs wont i tell you now and as for IR..........
 
yep this was my fear

if i do the new ccu jsut for the lighting full tests which i am going to do anyway a full pir as it prob never had one ever

I will try to do as des says if not next option rewire all kighting and fit a seperate new board for this then as and wehn they can afford do the rest of the rewire if they choose unless the pir turns up any nastys
 
Bruce,

Well, if the cash is tight for him right now, then while rewiring that room, just as well to rewire the upstairs lighting as a whole, at least when you come to re-wire the house, that'll already be done and dusted, ...And it ain't gonna cost him too much more if it's only a 2 up 2 down house! .......And the sparky's dead cheap too! ...lol!!!
 
engineer can i ask yo what do you do in china mate been meaning to ask it must pay well lol

i will never be rich as all jobs i get are friends etc and i must be the only free spark in blighty
 
yep this was my fear

if i do the new ccu jsut for the lighting full tests which i am going to do anyway a full pir as it prob never had one ever

I will try to do as des says if not next option rewire all kighting and fit a seperate new board for this then as and wehn they can afford do the rest of the rewire if they choose unless the pir turns up any nastys

Do as Des has suggested, and repair the damaged cable for your mate.

Then tell him the bad news, ....that they had better start saving for that rewire !! lol!!!
 
My concerns here are the bits you cant see bruce...When i pulled all the old stuff mentioned earlier out of my mums place the workmanship was dubious to say the least....i didn`t like the metal joint boxes they had used (in numurous places either) and the way they just wrapped a bit of wire around the lead sheath to earth it back to the "met" (if you could call it that) Henley/s and a garage board may be the answer as eng suggests to get the lighting circuit compliant (new) until they can afford the rest that clearly needs doing...Whatch yourself on that cutout wont you mate if its an old/decrepid one......
 
"And whats wrong with "not charging"
Engineer 54 has given you all the technical information on lead sheathed cable and how much did he charge you Bruce
:book:

mate they are the only jobs i get lol

doesnt put petrol in the car to get there and the mrs will kill me if i keep doing it for free seing as its nearly costme £7k in exams and everything i need to set up including the part scam fee

and thanks to you engineer and the rest for the kind free advice
 
"And whats wrong with "not charging"
Engineer 54 has given you all the technical information on lead sheathed cable and how much did he charge you Bruce
:book:

mate they are the only jobs i get lol

doesnt put petrol in the car to get there and the mrs will kill me if i keep doing it for free seing as its nearly costme £7k in exams and everything i need to set up including the part scam fee

and thanks to you engineer and the rest for the kind free advice
Come on mate ....start billin.......
 
My concerns here are the bits you cant see bruce...When i pulled all the old stuff mentioned earlier out of my mums place the workmanship was dubious to say the least....i didn`t like the metal joint boxes they had used (in numurous places either) and the way they just wrapped a bit of wire around the lead sheath to earth it back to the "met" (if you could call it that) Henley/s and a garage board may be the answer as eng suggests to get the lighting circuit compliant (new) until they can afford the rest that clearly needs doing...Whatch yourself on that cutout wont you mate if its an old/decrepid one......

Yep, there were dodgy house bashing sparks even in those days...lol!!
 
My concerns here are the bits you cant see bruce...When i pulled all the old stuff mentioned earlier out of my mums place the workmanship was dubious to say the least....i didn`t like the metal joint boxes they had used (in numurous places either) and the way they just wrapped a bit of wire around the lead sheath to earth it back to the "met" (if you could call it that) Henley/s and a garage board may be the answer as eng suggests to get the lighting circuit compliant (new) until they can afford the rest that clearly needs doing...Whatch yourself on that cutout wont you mate if its an old/decrepid one......

yes dont worry mate he will be paying for a new main isolator and anything else that needs replacing before i do out as i did at her mums and me bruvs British gas fit new 100A iso . digi meter and tails on there side and even upgrade fuse from 60 to 80 for free but if 100A needed then thats a whole different ball game as htats down to DNO god knows what that costs and how to get them to do it lol
 
Alright for some then innit lol!!.......

"Aspirations" Glenn,dont forget,aspire and you will get there yourself, and sooner than you care to dream
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Yep, there were dodgy house bashing sparks even in those days...lol!!
Well you have to treat each scenario differently dont you....what i found at my mothers might not be the case at bruce`s mates but you cant take owt for granted... especially if its been in that long and like you quite rightly pointed out :you dont know its history....it could have been subjected to conciderable overload (dont forget bruce mentioned a BS3036 board with BS60898 modules in it) 3036s will happily go on at considerable overload so it could have been subjected to this as well as numerous fault currents etc............
 
right another dumb question to check continuity on this circuit do i connect 1 of my leads to the lead sheathing at ccu using the croc clip ???? and the other to the line as usual and for Ir do i just check L-N or Line to sheathing????? also??? and N to sheathing??? i aint even trying to coneect line and neutral together to earth as in fear of damaging the cable even more

what have i got myself involved in lol should have stayed a full time carer for the mrs
 
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Well you`l have to IR it at 500V as it aint selv or pelv so you can just do that in the usual way (making sure of course that all loads/dimmers/sensitive equipment is disconnected/electrically seperated first) As for continuity could you not just use method 2 (wander lead method)?
 
yep mate i suppose i could

yeah mate know i have to test at 500v and disconnect sensitive equipment that part i do know from 2391 but as for testing lead sheathed cable they left the bit out

i know forn continuity in mineral insualted cable its the sheath thats tested but is it the same for lead sheathed as far as Ir goes
 
Well on the plus side Bruce if you get the rewire i think the scrap value on the lead could be reasonable ;)

mate i didnt even get that on the job i doing for her mum as mrs dad took it lol for the beer money

I ripped it all out and all other VIR wire and lead piping to bath, gas and gas lights in the wall

i was keeping some of the VIR which was damaged the most to show the elecsa guy lol but her dad was in there and went scrappers 3 times even rummaged all the pieces i saved lol

he started to cut the new leftover cable up until i asked him could i buy it from him hehe as it was awaste to cut it up for scrap lol

i think i shamed him into giving it to me lol
 
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yep mate i suppose i could

yeah mate know i have to test at 500v and disconnect sensitive equipment that part i do know from 2391 but as for testing lead sheathed cable they left the bit out

i know forn continuity in mineral insualted cable its the sheath thats tested but is it the same for lead sheathed as far as Ir goes
Sorry about that bruce i should know better than to start quoting to electricians arms members...lol.....
 
mate i didnt even get that on the job i doing for her mum as mrs dad took it lol for the beer money

I ripped it all out and all other VIR wire and lead piping to bath, gas and gas lights in the wall

i was keeping some of the VIR which was damaged the most to show the elecsa guy lol but her dad was in there and went scrappers 3 times even rummaged all the pieces i saved lol

he started to cut the new leftover cable up until i asked him could i buy it from him hehe as it was awaste to cut it up for scrap lol

i think i shamed him into giving it to me lol
should have got the scrap mate in my eyes....When my boss has a weigh in i always get summat out of it....you seem quite on the ball...which college are you at? I go to the castleford skills xchange (its part of the wakefield college) I think you rally should start charging for your services as you could run the risk of setting a dangerous precident here....: give bruce a ring...he`l do it....:he dont cost nowt...not having a go at you mate but you need to nip this one in the bud as you are clearly competent and should be getting paid for your services........
 
mate just because i am a electricians arms member and have the 2391 mean i know everything far from it mate i am a novice compared to some on here feel like a apprentice lol I am willing to learn and listen whoever is giving advice as long as its good mate

i didnt mean anything mate just never had any experience of testing lead lol

cheers for yu replies and help thats why i love this forum and the mrs hates it lol
 
mate just because i am a electricians arms member and have the 2391 mean i know everything far from it mate i am a novice compared to some on here feel like a apprentice lol I am willing to learn and listen whoever is giving advice as long as its good mate

i didnt mean anything mate just never had any experience of testing lead lol

cheers for yu replies and help thats why i love this forum and the mrs hates it lol
i know you didn`t bruce, no probs mate:cool3: But sometimes i need a kick up the butt just to remind me that i aint there yet myself (check des`s post earlier on in this thread) lol!..just tryin like many on here but its all good sport innit...you learn loads in here and it can be a bit compulsive but i dont care the way i see it is its full of like-minded people who enjoy what they do......
 
should have got the scrap mate in my eyes....When my boss has a weigh in i always get summat out of it....you seem quite on the ball...which college are you at? I go to the castleford skills xchange (its part of the wakefield college) I think you rally should start charging for your services as you could run the risk of setting a dangerous precident here....: give bruce a ring...he`l do it....:he dont cost nowt...not having a go at you mate but you need to nip this one in the bud as you are clearly competent and should be getting paid for your services........

mate i been doing electrical installation for over 25 yrs on and off since my apprenticeship i gave up and thats the reason why i end up doing for nothing as even wehn i was on site in 90s doing new build was wiring upto 5 houses a day for peanuts mate £26 day rate and 35 for 3 bed price for first fix some of the houses we did were 5 bedroom lol
when i starte for them there was 4 of us 2 bosses me and another lad this was after i had given my apprenticeship up at 16 at 18 i returned to it doing new build for a local firm no names mentioned and way things are going may have to ask them for a job again lol
they had 2 sites
2 yrs ltr we were running 22 sites the four of us all over north west

But i always regretted giving the apprenticeship up as testing was ltd Norweb or manweb did the full tests we jsut had to do continuity etc
they powered up testing etc if any faults we would rectify which was only when plumber or chippy etc had damaged

we also did some rewires and large new build nursing homes built by same builders wainhomes

anyway after yrs of doing it for nothing ort next to nothing as wellas any other low paying job i have done i decided when my partner was left disabled to try to get qualifications to set up myself and work from home
I approached the jobcentre over many yrs to get help with training or back to college but always told no training or funding etc and i am now exempt from work as i am a full time carer for the mrs and a part time spark at the moment
then a few yrs back decided i had enugh of working for peanuts and now it was either get qualified and go self employed or become resigned to the fact that as the dole had told us we were exempt from work at the age of late 30s the both of us we dont need to work ever

all good i told them if you like doing nothing all day and never having any money and just surviving off whatever they chucked our way

but we would like some kind of future

so in 2007 my dad passed away and this made me more and more determined to get the quals i needed i approached them agin and still no help so had to pay private for a 6 week wonder course at the princely some of £4020 reduced from £5K + for 2382-10 ,2377, 2393, and logic full and defined scopes levels A.B.C, 6 week theory and practical training on bays and a megger 1552 a ck toolkit the regs and osg as well as a large folder with all course notes etc
anayway at great reluctance i paid the money did the cours epassed enjoyed it with a great set of lads 8 of us took it 1 asian lady dropped out even though she had paid got the megger passd the logic part p competence and exams she failed the 2393 building regs which i read a book for a weekend and got 100% monday morning

so after i had done this course again i approached jobcentre and again no help to start up so after searching the web i found a firm that will help with start up and could get me grants for £2k for start up for tools office equipment anything except a van

I decided to do the 2391 at cost of £540 but got most funded of college and a local skills shop so only had to pay £140 BARGAIN as to get more experience of testing I studied every day for upto and more than 12 hrs a day for 4 months did a 8 week evening course 3 hrs 1 evening a week at bury college and passed first time no experience of testing 3 phase n the real world

then rang the firm who will help with start up to find out the governement had pulled all the funding for the regional development fund from which i was gettng the grants as we live in former coalfield area I anyone would get £1k for start up but as i lived in a former coalfied area i would have got £2k
torys got in cutr the funding and now i have to see if they have different funding
in the meantime 2330 was ending and 2356 so if i was ever to be classed as a fully qualified spark i ahd to get in this course at more cost to us
rang every college within 100mile radius and on last day of registration for 2330 i got a call from warrington college to say there is aplace if i could get ther for 4pm it was 3.30pm and it was rush hour in best of times its 30mins
anyway got there had a chat enrolled paid fee found out as we were on benefits i could get it for £120 yippee some luck got home found out C&G had exteneded even though i had rang them that day and loads of other days and every college who all told me it was ending and the 2356 which i have regisstered for on the 23rd march 2011 at a cost of £780

i went on the 21st aprila s arranged to find outr as C&G had extended that all the lv2 students who had been fast tracked and the ones i was ssupposed to be joining had gone back to lv2 they ahd been fast tracked to sign up for lv3 in time
so this meant no lv3 2330 course for me until sept

next thing i got my £120 fee returned and rang college to be told as it was exteded but new tory ???????were in they had pulled the funding which meant me re enrolloing in sept and possibly paying anywher between £800 and 1600
I was furiuous but reamianed calm rang them asked if i could speak to someone told receptionist if the student support
she got a nice lady from financial dept down explained my situation and that i was a carer and its my last chance as the new 2357 you have to be employed so out the window for me at 40 now 41 yrs of age

she went to speak to her manager who sent her to the director of college and as a result i got to still pay the 3120 so gave her the cheque back and sat in for 4 weeks with the lv2 students why they have had the rest of there lv2 stuff finished properly basically doing nowt apart from getting some lv2 sample papers to do as paractice also for the tutor to see what i know and dont lol

i asked him if t was possible to do the lv2 he said not worth it to me but i said as i dont have it if i need employment in future may come unstuck without it so i asked would it be possible to jsut do the lv2 exams at same time as lv3 exams lol

I am still negotiating this he said it may be possible

mate i would start from lv1 if it meant at the end i got a JIB gold card with approved electricain on it then after 25 yrs + and a lot of struggle to be able to be classed as a electrician and not a 6 week wonder lol as some on here would class me

mate i jsut class Myself as getting there one day or the end of the line whichever comes first

i have spent best aprt of £7k trying so far and still not earned a bean lol this was our savings from always working upto the mrs operation which was private and went wrong

so its do or die now mate
 
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