Mandatory EICRs in Rental Properties - 1 year or 5 years

[Spazz]

Please post your comments on here - state if you think EICRs should be done every year or 5 years.
Also please state your reason behind your choice - please don't put money!, profit for us, cost to landlords etc!

I will put this forward to Parliament in favor of which one is considered best by the experts in the field (us)

Please sticky this as well please

 

[Mark_Burgess]

certificated safe by an appropriately qualified person.

That would be the same "appropriately qualified persons" that run these drive by EICR's currently!!!

 

[Spazz]

Any costs incurred would go straight onto the rent,
I am a landlord And my property is obviously well kept up together with gas and is to 17th, easy when you know how ey? Knowing my tennant, I would not Test this property again for 10 years, as they are careful, there is enough sockets not to need any extras, RCBO's etc.

I have a fair amount of testing experience probably nearing 1000 houses and I can tell you, other then DIY Disaster houses most remain in the same condition for years, it is just the DIY tennants which cause the issues,
and as has been said WHY SHOULD WE HAVE TO PAY TO CHECK THAT IDIOT TENNANTS HAVENT MADE THE INSTALLATION HAZARDOUS?
If they modify it against their tenancy agreement that is their fault , and theirs only.

This is just another buearocracy waiting to be introduced, another hurdle to jump over and another way of criminalising the common man,

The fact is, even in the very unlikely event of someone getting a shock from dodgy electrics it is very rarely fatal, as has been said before, this is a very minor issue,
It does not need legislation, there are plenty of major issues for the government and the public to be dealing with.

You get good landlords and you get bad, this will cost the good landlords money - and the bad won't bother anyway

I do agree why should we pay to check that idiot tenants haven't made the installation a hazard!
But you say that its their fault and only their fault - but think about it this way if a tenant modifies something and a landlord does not have it checked then the next tenant is killed (worse case) who is to blame?

THE LANDLORD because they have a legal responsibility to ensure that the electrical installation is safe at the start and during the whole tenancy!
I agree that this is not right but the problem is that this is the case!


somersetspark - you seem like a decent landlord - and like you say everyone that you checked is fine - again responsible landlords but what about those you don't check?

The problem is that those who are not responsible are the ones who let the whole lot down - same as with sparks and everything else!

 

[oldtimer]

Nicholas I mentioned the cost implications in post 13 dont get me wrong you have tried but the deal is politics and they are going to look after business first and this government is saying there is too much regulations plus small business needs less costs not more the problem is there are 2 types of landlord (excluding my daughter) one is proactive and keeps their cash cow in good condition the second is the one who takes every penny then lurches from one disaster to another when things go wrong.

Me I would stipulate a RCD CU and mains smoke detector fitted before the property can be rented plus as I have said a £120-£150 EICR every 5-6 years and a £60-£75 mini EICR for a change of tenants within the 5-6 year period. Remember gas gets more prominanse because of the deaths in rat infested properties years ago but right now and sadly unless there is more electrocutions then any new proposals will be shelved remember landlords pay council tax and income tax so nobody is going to rock their boat so politicians will shout about gay marriage because it does not cost a lot plus its a non avent but I hate to say not one politician is going to put their head above the paripit because he/she wants to keep there cosy gold plated pension and salaries in these harsh economical times.

I forgot to highlight that I have seen some bad tenants as well so its not all the landlords fault as I have visite properties where they have trashed the flat pulled the smoke head off the ceiling cos its not for me to replace the battery plus it was getting on my wick

 

[Spazz]

like has been said by trev - these are social houses - privately rented houses should be the same standard!

 

[trev]

Then again Nicholas wny are you not concerning yourself with rented shops or pubs? Have you seen the state of what passes for a safe installation in most pubs?
If you did you'd probably never go in another one

 

[Spazz]

I have seen some of these trev - not sure how I would go about that purly on the basis because there is no Part P for Pubs and shops!

I personally think there should be! and I will put this in the statement when Wales reviews Part P.

Personally every property should have EICRs every 5 years but this wont happen till every insurance company requests it!

 

[trev]

And as has been pointed out, when the insurance companys demand it the incidence of drive by I&T will massively increase, the costs will also tumble so much that it will not be worthwhile for anyone to do it properly.
Before you say it, yes I know that the only time it will be found out is if and when someone is seriously hurt, but Part P was intended to drive out the cowboys.
What exactly has that achieved?

 

[Spazz]

Plus as well all these decent landlords have RCDs installed in their properties and have them tested every 5 years.

So even if this did come into law these landlords who are doing this wont be effected anyway.


Is there anything wrong with electrical contractors offering a landlord package? which includes EICR and MEICR on a property and all items supplied by the landlord - PAT Tested?

Such package can be offered for something like (from) £32 per circuit: -
£20 per circuit for EICR
£10 per circuit for MEICR
£2 per circuit for PAT Testing (this will change depending on number of items)

MEICRs only need IR on all circuits (not individuality), RCD Testing and Zs - as well as a visual

We don't need to think about going in to deep (on MEICRs) unless something crops up but then this will be investigated accordingly

 

[Geoffsd]

Insurance companies would be demanding it already IF it would save them money.
So, can we deduce that they consider it not necessary?

What is a MEICR?
Are you going to introduce this first or make compulsory something which does not exist?

 

[trev]

Also "Should decrease insurance premiums"
I agree it should, but it won't

 

[Spazz]

MEICRs - look at previous posts - suggested by some on here and LAPP (Public Protection Departments)

MEICR - Minor Electrical Installation Condition Report - contains some but not all the tests - IR, Zs, RCD and visual

 

[oldtimer]

MEICR or mini EICR as I proposed test Ze/PFC Zs at sockets and cooker socket RCD tests then a visual check to see no sockets switches are damaged or hanging off the wall if not it will be a copy and paste of the original

 

[nickblake]

I will totally back you up nicholas , i have inspections from 2006 to 2011 by 2 companies and to be honest they are a joke , the whole inspection lark need tightening up and proper inspections carried out i will be speaking to the ESC at elex on friday armed with the inspection of this propert and my own just to show them the quality of inspection been carried out if any at all , and make the point of rented properties , i have been in a property where a woman was nearly killed rented and dangerous

 

[Geoffsd]

Suggestions - but there is no such thing in the regulations.

So,

are you going to introduce this first or make compulsory something which does not exist?

​

 

[Spazz]

The best thing which could happen is that T&I becomes notifiable!

This way all T&I are sent to the LABC - same as MOTs are sent to VOSA

There needs to be policing on this! and the only way that will happen is if all EICRs are sent to LABC.

MEICRs will then become like Pre MOTs - advisable and a good idea to check that the Electrics will pass the main MOT when it comes around.

Even Gas should be the same - all notifiable

We have to notify that the work is up to scratch when we do it in the first place so why should we not have to make sure that they comply year after year after year.

If they become notifiable then it wont just effect rentals - it will effect owned properties as well!

 

[Geoffsd]

I think I'd better leave before I say something I shouldn't.

 

[trev]

"The best thing which could happen is that T&I becomes notifiable!"

What about the notifiable work that goes on now that is not notified? Do you seriously think someone in LABC is going to think "OOOO the annual inspection at 999 Letsby Avenue hasn't been done" It's a pipe dream mate sorry, LABC don't have the time, resources or inclination to do what they should be doing now with electrical installations so yeah, lets pile more work on them that'll do the trick

"We have to notify that the work is up to scratch when we do it in the first place so why should we not have to make sure that they comply year after year after year."


If nobody buggers with it it will comply, plus don't forget the regs are not retrospective

"If they become notifiable then it wont just effect rentals - it will effect owned properties as well!"

So you're quite happy to put another cost on the household budget 1) what will that do to the inflation figures? 2) What business is it of yours or anyone else's what condition my home is in?

We are electricians mate not the Stasi

 

[Spazz]

Trev

Few points - even though I agree!

"We have to notify that the work is up to scratch when we do it in the first place so why should we not have to make sure that they comply year after year after year."

If nobody buggers with it it will comply, plus don't forget the regs are not retrospective

I was refuring to once they are done put them on the system so they can be checked - nothing more - or even have an online system like the MOT which auto checks them




What about the notifiable work that goes on now that is not notified?

I was just talking about this with my misses - this is the biggest issue!

I went to a mates tonight and saw all the electric cables hanging - not clipped or anything! - trip hazard more than anything - she said the work just been done by a registered spark - asked her who and all behold it was the local Private Ambulance Service who is not even a first aider not long anything else!

As far as electrics go he has never done any courses nor is he registered - again no cert issued or anything!


LABC informed and will see where this goes.


It appears that these cowboys keep making 1 big mistake - they dont issue a cert! - because this bit of paper states that they did the work!

So if this government put a campaign out stating that everything needs to be certificated then maybe these homeowners/landlords wont stand for electrical work being done without a cert being issued!
​

 

[oldtimer]

Nicholas be careful you are saying if registered well we all know if you are a Electrical Trainee or have a dodgy East European electricians card then the Schemies will sign you up and badge you then you will get the a guy or gal coming on the forum with I have this I&T contract so what exactly is a Ze reading. The other thing to take in to account is social housing they would have to comply and manage the testing so cost will come into it.

Remember under European law on free trade you cannot force a individual to register with a Schemie because if you did then you would have one big monopoly

 

[trev]

So you're quite happy to put another cost on the household budget 1) what will that do to the inflation figures? 2) What business is it of yours or anyone else's what condition my home is in?

The questions still stand mate, especially q2.

All you're proposing is more red tape to strangle us with. What you're trying to do is praiseworthy Nicholas but there are bigger fish to fry.
As far as a Govt campaign to say everything MUST be certified, isn't that in the regs already?
A while back the government started to say they would reintroduce dog licences and bring in compulsory 3rd party insurance. The only people who would comply are responsible dog owners.
Motor insurance IS compulsory, there are an estimated 2 million uninsured cars on the road.
There are laws saying you won't do this that and the other yet the prisons are full.
Getting the idea yet?

 

[Spazz]

I get your point trev!

TBH if these agents and insurance companies took this on (the responsible ones are) the there would be no reason to make this law.

There are some landlords not using agents and not insuring their houses and they are the ones who are the biggest problem!

These landlords have extreamly poor everything not just electrics!

Its all the same thing - the bad ones giving a bad impression to everyone!


In regards to this person if you goggled him you will find that he already spent 5 years in the clink for death by dangerous driving as well as several other offenses - but because hes a Mason - the police around here wont touch him. If anyone dont believe me PM me and I will send you the page (BBC News).

TBH if the licencing came in to Wales and England like it is in Scotland it will save aload of problems and all these landlords will have to pull their figures out!


In regards to this law about letting people do their own electric work - I also putting this down as an alternative solution to getting a spark in and the costs encored for that - fair all around!

 

[craigj85]

Every 5 years is reasonable and the landlord should be responsible for keeping an eye on its condition inbetween or when the tenant changes. Why is it legalised robbery? It's not only the safety of the public but whoever works on it as well. in a commercial property you're supposed to have a period inspection anyway which is what a rental property is really

 

[trev]

Responsible insurance companys, are you having a laugh mate?
All they are interested in is lining their own bank accounts and finding ways not to pay out. An example, around the time of Hurricane Katrina we had very high winds which damaged our roof, we called our insurance company and long story short they said because the roof showed signs of previous repairs it was not storm damage and would not pay out
A house down the road from us is let by a guy who uses an agent. Are you claiming that this makes him a responsible landlord? Because I can assure you it does not
Re this person you're inviting me to google, I have no clue what you're getting at there.
My point with the thing about dog licences, 3rd party insurances, car insurance and other laws was that only those who comply with the law anyway are going to comply with any law you're proposing to introduce. There will always be the rogue/cowboy who will not do what they are supposed to as part p has proven time and again.
As I say, there are bigger fish to fry.

 

[trev]

I'll ask again, for the last time. With regard to your idea of making a condition report mandatory for owned properties.
What business is it of your's or anyone else's what condition my home is in?

 

[Spazz]

I only stated that if they became notifiable then homeowner properties will be be included in it as well.

Personally I dont want to know what your home looks like or how the electrics are! - if your a good boy then they are up to scratch! 100% - if your like a mechanic then you will have half finished jobs all over the place!


Again thats your business - like I said before I am doing this purely because these landlords have a duty of care over someone else (not related) where you have a duty of care of yourself and your family

 

[trev]

You're incuding it your campaign though so where are you going to draw the line? Will you allow someone to have a damp problem or a leaking roof because they don't have the cash to fix it? Like I said, we're electricians not the Stasi
A duty of care doesn't start and end with a landlord and tenant relationship. Believe it or not you have a duty of care to the postman/woman (got to be PC) when the mail is delivered. It's all there in existing laws mate.

 

[Spazz]

Exactly trev - its not in my campaign - I was just saying the ideal situation would be notify everything - it wont happen!

EICRs are going to have to be policed a the end of the day to work - how they are policed is up to the government and the LA who is tasked to police them!

When Part P comes to being changed in Wales I will be posting on here to get views of how it can be improved because there are alot on here who dont like Part P, so I need to get their opinions first before anything so I fully understand it - because I dont see a problem with Part P except commercial and industrial is not notifiable (unless electrically linked to a domestic) and the problem with these cowboys!

 

[trev]

In theory I, like many others, support regulation of our industry. It's just that the current (no pun intended) system does not and will never work

 

[somersetsparks]

Couple points,
this suggested MEICR wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, why do an rcd test but not ring end to ends? you say you would only megger the whole installation, but this is what happens anyway, you only break it down if you get bad readings.
An EICR is hardly very thorough anyway, I for one can see no npoint in an MEICR. An average house periodic takes what 3 hours? providing all is in order? whats the point in poking around for an hour and doing a half arse job?

Anyway this is all going in the direction of 1984,
'All work in your own home must be reported to Big Brother'
Please leave us alone

 

[Des 56]

Exactly trev - its not in my campaign - I was just saying the ideal situation would be notify everything - it wont happen!

EICRs are going to have to be policed a the end of the day to work - how they are policed is up to the government and the LA who is tasked to police them!

When Part P comes to being changed in Wales I will be posting on here to get views of how it can be improved because there are alot on here who dont like Part P, so I need to get their opinions first before anything so I fully understand it - because I dont see a problem with Part P except commercial and industrial is not notifiable (unless electrically linked to a domestic) and the problem with these cowboys!

I refer you back to the reply I had off the Welsh housing minister
If part p is changed or dumped in England.Wales will consider the changes, then review those changes,they would have a consultation period and take opinions.thats before considering any changes themselves (because they said, other parts are to be treated with priority)

In effect,Wales will not see any changes for at least the next ten years,even if there was change in England

We would all be better off campaigning for reduced or no involvement from government with our industry,the interference tends to make things more expensive and worse in all aspects

 

[Spazz]

If you think about it somerset spark

R1+R2 determines the Zs reading
Zs will show up any problems with R1+R2
IR test on the whole circuit will show up any nails
IR will show up any cables close to each other
RCD will test the RCD
RCD will show up any problems with earth leackage
Visual will show up anything that looks like its been tampered with


EICR every year or 5 years
end to end
R1+R2
IR
RCD
Zs
Ze
Visual


Yes it will always be recommended that a full EICR is done - but cost cost cost!


A MEICR can be done quickly and easy - without taking anything apart - plug in and go

There needs to be a 'quick' test that can be done in about 1hr at a cheap rate to the landlord - if you kept saying you have to do EICR after EICR the landlord wont do it - but if you say EICR every 1-5 years and MEICR @ £50 every change then they will most likely go with it - plus to satisfy the Euro Law - if they can justify buying a MFT then they can and do them their-selves - but they will have to prove that they know how to use it! because if they dont the test sheet will show it up!


EICRs are expensive - especially if done every 6 months!

If an EICR is done every 5 years and a MEICR is done every 6 months (thats £650 per 5 years) based on EICR @ £200 and MEICR @ £50


Check the other 68 posts and all this has been brought up before and this is why people on here mentioned about a MEICR.

Put it this way as you can see from previous posts we have had LAs say do a visual check - NOT WORTH THE PAPER ITS WRITTEN ON

At least a MEICR has the main results and will show up any problems which will be recorded in the problem list - C1, C2, C3

 

[trev]

What about the drive bys though how are you going to combat that? As I and others have said, bring in what you're proposing and the incidence of drive by I&T will increase exponentially, thus reducing fees and making it uneconomical for anyone to do it properly. Even a perfectly reputable company could unwittingly employ a lazy git, I've seen it a boatload of times where guys make up test results.

 

[Spazz]

I refer you back to the reply I had off the Welsh housing minister
If part p is changed or dumped in England.Wales will consider the changes, then review those changes,they would have a consultation period and take opinions.thats before considering any changes themselves (because they said, other parts are to be treated with priority)

In effect,Wales will not see any changes for at least the next ten years,even if there was change in England

We would all be better off campaigning for reduced or no involvement from government with our industry,the interference tends to make things more expensive and worse in all aspects

Des you say this - what will removing Part P do?

The only thing it ill do is give free rain to anyone to do their own electrics without having a requirement to having them checked after!

This is a licence to kill!


Look at the stats and you will see how many lives where saved by Part P coming in!

Yes we still have cowboys doing work without notifying it - but the fault of that lays with the home owner! They should check for NICEIC at least!

NICEIC is widely known and something as easy as a logo on the van or ID is the easy thing- the problem is people dont check!


These customers are opening the door to these cowboys to do bog jobs then they moan because they had been told to spend more money fixing the problems!

The other big problem is some electricians are signing off Joe Blogs work! These are the worst! And there are some on here doing it - they already identified themselves on other posts!

 

[trev]

Plus, the MEICRs (which as has been pointed out do not exist), suppose you carry one out and 3 weeks later the house burns down. Fire brigade say "Electrical fault" which they always do when they can't find the cause (I have a mate in the fire service)
Who gets the blame?

 

[Spazz]

What about the drive bys though how are you going to combat that? As I and others have said, bring in what you're proposing and the incidence of drive by I&T will increase exponentially, thus reducing fees and making it uneconomical for anyone to do it properly. Even a perfectly reputable company could unwittingly employ a lazy git, I've seen it a boatload of times where guys make up test results.

And this is the problem Trev

Some so called sparks (fully trained!) will make results up, sign off others work, etc, etc, etc all because they cant be bothered to do a proper job

Like I keep saying Part P is not the issue! WE ARE!

("WE ARE!" meaning those sparks doing the comments stated above and notthose doing it by the book!)

There needs to be harder punishments on those making a mockery out of the system!


If they where MOT testers they would be inspected 3/4 times a year, plus if they took a short cut (and found out) they would lose their licence to MOT!

If a spark is found to be cheating they get a slap across the wrist and told not to do it again! - Take their membership off them and put them on a banned list for 3 years (min) F*** their future up - there is no punishment for breaking the law and putting public at risk!

 

[trev]

Logo on the van???? How many people are on their roll of shame for using the NIC logo without being a member...flippin loads.
How many lives has Part P saved...not very many I'd bet but that's a stat which we will never be able to get

The customer does not care, all they want is for the lights to go on and the idiot box in the corner to work

 

[trev]

Take their membership away... ooo thats scary, if they're doing crap work do you think not being in a scam is going to stop them. There's an NICEIC approved contractor near me, everyone knows he juices up without testing but according to him every spark in town is a cowboy, me included.
Funny how every spark in town has had him by the throat, me included hehe

 

[Spazz]

Plus, the MEICRs (which as has been pointed out do not exist), suppose you carry one out and 3 weeks later the house burns down. Fire brigade say "Electrical fault" which they always do when they can't find the cause (I have a mate in the fire service)
Who gets the blame?

Exactly the same if we do an EICR and the place burns down - whats saying we didnt make the results up - nothing!

Whos to blame?

MEICRs was just an idea - nothing else - if the law got passed then something would have to be put into place cheaper than the EICRs for change of tenancy (if put into law)


Realistically all what is needed is a 5 year inspection - this will show everything up and sort all landlords out!

 

[trev]

That recommendation is in the regs already, couple that with the EAWR then you have a law (I believe)
Although I'm an electrician not a lawyer

 

[Spazz]

This is what I said - if law changed to change of tenancy a cheaper version of the EICR will have to come out - or landlords wont do it or more fakes will be issued!

The thing is like I sad on 1st page

There is 1 law already in place but because it is so broad people don't understand it!


The Electrical Installation must be safe and maintained

This can mean anything to anyone!
This could mean wait for it to go wrong and fix it fast!


Same as with PAT testing!
the employer must provide safe and maintained electrical equipment

Again this could mean anything to anyone