Mandatory EICRs in Rental Properties - 1 year or 5 years

[Spazz]

Please post your comments on here - state if you think EICRs should be done every year or 5 years.
Also please state your reason behind your choice - please don't put money!, profit for us, cost to landlords etc!

I will put this forward to Parliament in favor of which one is considered best by the experts in the field (us)

Please sticky this as well please

 

[trev]

Originally Posted by Paulgwat
As someone who is planning to enter the trade

Sorry guy I missed that bit

 

[Paulgwat]

Trev thanks for your comments and Des56 I appreciate the honesty in the questions you ask rather than the assumptions made by other forum members.

I am contemplating becoming an electrician for many reasons some personal and others purely because of a love of engineering and all things technical!

My goal is to work towards becoming a designer / installer of systems such as clipsal cbus, cytech comfort, lutron, crestron etc etc and look at more cedia type applications of home automation but I am also not a fool and realise I cannot walk into that space without first spending some time learning and covering the basics and building a business and reputation.

I realise that in the current climate things are tough and it may or may not pan out the way I plan but unless I try...

Paul

 

[Paulgwat]

Originally Posted by Paulgwat
As someone who is planning to enter the trade


My question was not meant to be critical of paul,it was critical of his plans (given his higher qualifications status, that he already possess)into a trade beset with decline and low moral

I wish him well,but feel he will be swimming against an unstoppable tide with dreams of regulation of landlords for eicrs

Hi des,

Comments not taken as critical, and as for regulation it was my view on what I thought should happen if the government real aim was tomreducenthe amount of dodgy electrics - I have zero expectation that it would actually happen! More likely the government will dream another load of useless legislation that means the genuine law abiding home owner can't wire a plug without getting a tick in a box.

Paul

 

[Geoffsd]

How many more times .

This proposed legislation, on the pretence of reducing injuries and deaths, is NOT necessary.

 

[Mark_Burgess]

Nicholas, the best feedback you could possibly get is from a landlord forum.

Why dont you put your proposal on there, they will give you the feedback, after all they will be paying it.

Here is one for you LandlordZONE Forums

Can you lets us know when you have asked them?

 

[Merv]

Ask a landlord his opinion of the checks, and he’ll tell you it will simply serve as another loophole for a bad tenant to avoid eviction.
If a landlord applies to a court for an eviction notice the first thing they ask is if he has protected the tenant’s deposit?
This second question will be is the EICR up to date?
If the landlord can’t prove either on the day of the hearing the eviction will be dismissed, and the landlord is put in the dock.
It will get to the stage where a landlord will be frightened of evicting anyone because there will be so many things that the tenant can use against the landlord. It’s complicated enough as it is.

Nicholas Owen seems like a misguided do –gooder to me.
He hasn’t a clue the mischief that this will cause for landlords, and for what?
And furthermore, judging by the opinions on here voiced by respected members, he also doesn’t know what he is talking about.

 

[EYES]

I would go for every 5 years. unless a new tenant is introduced to the premises. This was the landlord has the knowledge of state of the property on new possession. So for longer lets the landlord saves money but if they have 6 monthly new tennants it could end up costly.

 

[Merv]

What would happen in practice, is that before the tenant got the keys they would have to fork out for the EICR, like they do now for the credit check.
That’s the way to do it, and any subsequent checks could be added to the rent.

The law is already clear on any injuries sustained by tenants.
If a tenant is injured due to negligence by the landlord, then the landlord is accountable. So why the need for any more legislation?
A lot of these tenants simply couldn’t afford this nice little earner for electricians, which let’s face it is all that it would be.


Any figures for injuries sustained by tenants caused by faulty wiring?
I bet they’re far fewer than in private residencies.

 

[Merv]

Sorry for the large bold above, I don't know how that happened.

 

[amberleaf]

NicholasOwen
MyOwn opinion only

Icant find the article about RCDs on theforum .
Ido apologise if am in the wrong part .

RCDs. for Additional-protection . it assists against . Electric-shock . Etc

Whenwe refer to Safety . !! there’s a lot of consideration that needs donefirstly .

House-bashing . am using the right wording .
Part-P. any DIYer can work on there own house . how do you judge him competent person. ??
Anyouter trade with . Part-P . can get there little hand onto some of the action .??

Compliancewith BS-7671: Which one . ??
Therehave been considerable-changes in the standard over any Installation-life .

Firstly. Householders are legally responsibly for any electrical work in there homes .majority of householders are unaware of this .

Someone has to clean up there act here . My own opinion only .
landlords& agent ( & Private-landlords ) I believe everyrental-property should require an . ( EICR ) as . MANDATORY . every 10 years .

That’sgreat the IET has made changes to BS-7671:2011 . for professional electricians .

startat the source . You have to lobby to get the regulations made MANDATORY . not RCDs .

Joepublic . this person . householder telephonedme about a problem fuse kept blowing . has not had any checks done for years. cartridge-fuses .
Everytom dick & harry has been here .
Forgetthe word fault-finding . lets rephrase it ****finding
reverse-polarityto CU . I kid you not . Neutral & Earth . no one picked up on this matter .
4.0mmcable with junction-box onto 2.5mm .
Radialsthat thick there rings . ?
wehave stranded / solid / imperial . cables Etc
noequipotential-bonding to gas .
someplaces have no PE to lights .
onesocket feeding of the 6.0mm cooker .
inthe kitchen alone . two radials . with2.5mm tapped of . here there & everywhere .
RCDs. are not a cure . at this point .

ifthe majority of landlords & agent . ( Private-landlords & Householders ) do not bother to get the . Electrics checkedit is a complete waste of time . I’ll bite my tongue here .

Myown opinion only
Ratherthan looking at more ways to improve the current regulations . it would makemore sense to lobby to get the regulations made MANDATORY .
Itboils down to Money . Joe public
Insurancecompany’s . would like re-wires save fires & Money . in the right contents . what do wecall safety . “ Shambles “

Thishas been bugging me for some time .

Thankyou .

 

[amberleaf]

“ Guidance “ Some-Facts . At-random .

Table. 3.2. GN-3 - p.65 . recognises ( Two-distinct ) types ofrented-accommodation .
-Rented domestic-accommodation . ( Houses & Flats )
-Residential-accommodation . ( Houses ofmultiple-occupation )

Foreach Type : Table 3.2. .( Recommends ) that . Inspection & Testing becarried out at a maximum frequency of . ( five-years ) or on ( changeof occupancy ) together with an annual-routine-check.

-Rented domestic-accommodation ??.
Inrented-accommodation . generally . there is currently ( No-Legal-Obligation) for landlords to arrange for an . Annual-safety-check of . electrical-installations

Some-Facts. The-Landlord & Tenant-Act 1985 .
The( Main-Statutory-Obligation ) for . landlords regarding . ( Electrical-Safety ) isin Section-11 . of the Landlord & Tenant-act 1985 . Section-11 . requiresthe Landlord to maintain the ( Electrical-Installation ) in repair & proper-working-order . TheLandlord is required to . ensure that . prior to any letting . the ( Electrical-system )& any Electrical-appliances that are supplied as part of the rented-propertythat are supplied as part of the rented-property . are safe to use .

Paragraph3.5 . GN-3 . “ Guidance “
Inspection& Testing . ( Recommends “ Routine-checks ) Table3.2 . provides-guidance of the . frequency of such-checks .

Myown Opinion .
Question. do ( We ) want to Achieve a 100%-level of Electric-safety .
its.Now ( Over ) to the people that control our . Industryto sort this-out .

Some-Facts . ( Recommends . No-Legal-Obligation . Main-Statutory-Obligation . Are safe to use . Canthis Improve . Electrical-system .

 

[Stusparks]

I agree with the theory of mini EICR's.
If a new installation has been installed properly, a full circuit board schedule and the original installation cert available, a mini EICR would be perfect...check for broken fittings etc

 

[amberleaf]

Thisis one of these thing that will keepcropping-up .

Dan . Am askingthe forum . for some consideration on this matter . Thank you .

Amasking the forum . if its allowed to do an Unofficial-poll.
Re-Mandatory. EICRs in rented-properties .

Full-EICRs- 10 years .
Mini-EICRs- 1 year or 5 years .
- Leave it as it is .
- Room for improvement.

What safety is needed more .
- Industrial-installation.
- Comical-installation.
- Residential-premises.
- Domestic-premises.

- Domestic-premises. Mandatory . No .
- Domestic-premises. Mandatory . Yes .

- Jury is out on this .

Letsput this to Rest .

 

[trev]

Sorry for the large bold above, I don't know how that happened.

Could you not have used a bigger font Merv? I'm getting short of lamp oil

 

[Knobhead]

A lot of these tenants simply couldn’t afford this nice little earner for electricians, which let’s face it is all that it would be.

My point at the start of this farse of a thread. Why should any trade have the right to legalised robbery.

There's been a lot of fine words extoling the safety aspect, safety? it's easy money this little scam is aimed at!

 

[UNG]

My point at the start of this farse of a thread. Why should any trade have the right to legalised robbery.

There's been a lot of fine words extoling the safety aspect, safety? it's easy money this little scam is aimed at!

The gas people have been doing similar for years although there are more potential dangers with gas burning appliances IMO

An electrical installation that has not been meddled with has far less problem potential and a landlord inventory type visual check against an as fitted / last tested layout sheet would probably suffice to check for additions or alterations

 

[Geoffsd]

I agree with the theory of mini EICR's.

What is a mini EICR?

If a new installation has been installed properly, a full circuit board schedule and the original installation cert available, a mini EICR would be perfect...

Surely, more relevant on installations that have NOT been installed properly and ones withOUT paperwork.

check for broken fittings etc

I suspect the landlord or tenant could do that themselves.

 

[vjsmarwick]

I was just going to jump in and say any landlord worth his salt would at least have a good walk around his property and check for things himself so a visual check would be pointless and if the landlord didn't want to have the place tested he wouldn't call a sparky so how would this be policed ? I know I do maintaining of four holiday homes and as soon as there is anything wrong I get a call but I know not all are like this but other than having someone drive around asking to see test papers I don't see how it will work like standing peeing in a face wind if you ask me

 

[Spazz]

The only way it will work is if this landlord licencing scheme (that the UK government are talking about) comes into force.
This will mean that every rental property will have to have a licence before it can be rented out - part of this will be a up-to-date EICR and Gas Cert on file. No Certs no licence.

Of course this licence scheme is only in the early stages but if it if it goes ahead then this would be the only way to police it!

 

[Plonker 3]

But what about all the landlords that don't join but still rent out? A bit like the electricians who do notifiable work but don't notify it?

In practice it is a good idea, but in theory it would never work.

 

[trev]

But what about all the landlords that don't join but still rent out? A bit like the electricians who do notifiable work but don't notify it?

Plus the unscrupulous ones who do join the scheme to give the appearance of being a nice caring honest landlord will just get some cowboy to issue them a drive by clean bill of health. Nic it's never going to work mate, it might be time to let this die a natural death

 

[Knobhead]

Could do with it being taken out of the "Sticky" section and left to die a natural....

 

[Spazz]

I stopped running this once I received the reply from the Welsh Minister.
"I am 100% behind you but installing RCDs and requiring EICRs will cost the landlord and I cant put that on them when this country is in the financial situation it is"

If they bring in the licence scheme - it will be mandatory to register - there will be no choice. The council can pick up what houses are for rental by checking the council tax register - easy! There will be no way out of it.
It will be like with food places - they must register - end of!

Like said about I am not following this anymore, it is on a back burner till this licence scheme comes into force (if it goes ahead) - I am nothing to do with this licence scheme by the way - this is being headed up by Parliament

 

[trev]

It's mandatory to register with a CPS if carrying out notifiable works or notify LABC and pay a fee. Does Tommy down the pub who knows what he's doing do it? No, and what happens? Nothing
Houses get bought and sold on a daily basis, do you propose that cash strapped councils employ someone to carry out land registry searches to confirm who owns what?
There are any amount of unregistered food places, you see them every day parked up in lay bys. Admittedly most are registered and policed but what happens to the ones which are not interested in going down the legal route? Nothing.

 

[Knobhead]

I stick by my original statement. This has nothing to do with safety, someone saw a nice little earner.

 

[Plonker 3]

I stick by my original statement. This has nothing to do with safety, someone saw a nice little earner.

Exactly the same as Part P, but because it affected a MP the law was introduced.

 

[Knobhead]

That’ll keep the MP’s out of it then. If an MP’s little darling gets fried, daddy would most likely be the landlord.

 

[TIGGERTOM13]

The frequency of tests should be recommended by the person carrying out the inspection. If it was aceptable and not much sign of wear and tear of accessories then a five year inpection would be fine. Normally it is also change of tennancy but if the landlord has a maintence record and nothing has altered then a visual should be fine.If the install tests ok but you think it should be tested in one year or two years etc then that would be your recommended date of inspection.

 

[BigAndyB]

The problem is the landlord and or their money grabbing agents.
I attended a rented property to carry out a EICR. The tenant had by passed the meter for his flat in a communal riser. Hed'd pulled the main fuse put in a Henley block, hey presto free lecky!. EON attended the building found this, removed the main fuse, the Henley block and the meter, as he was no in they wrote to him. I can see the sense, they wont reconnect until the installation was proved safe, that's fair. He may have had some ganja farm in his one bed flat! The letting agent said they would withhold his deposit if the electric was not connected when he moved out.
Check this out, this is a property he's been in for 2 years, oh and they reckon its been previously tested and passed!

View attachment 15412

View attachment 15413
View attachment 15414

These MCB's are about 2 years old! There was a bit of tape covering the bus-bar!
Double socket less that 350mm above the hob.
Standard pendant in bathroom.
As for the cooker socket, half covered by a cupboard a new cooker socket had been installed surface by the old one, but was there only to provide a 13 amp plug that was usable, but had was broken front!

Never seen anything like this ever!
I took pity on the guy, as the property was dead, i did a visual inspection - don't take a genius to condemn it.

How can we tighten the rules on testing, if no one follows them??

 

[Spazz]

No links work

 

[BigAndyB]

No links work

Yer, not sure what i have done? i can see them? Damn technology.

 

[Spazz]

That melted terminal on the old re-wire-able fuse boards is very common with higher loads. Every CU change I have done from the old 3036 (with a 40A breaker/fuse) to new 17th Ed always has had a burned fuse. Im not sure if these boards can take the high current required to run 40A (e.g. a shower)

 

[BigAndyB]

Lucky the shower doesn't work then!!

But still, putting a strip of tape across the front of the board takes the ****!
Even a bit of trunking lid secured across the opening would be an improvement. I blame the letting agents handyman!

 

[somersetsparks]

Nick - your right only high integrety Wylex boards can take a fuse bigger then 30a. These tend to have a seperate way with a slightly larger fusecarrier, usually a 45A green from what ive seen. However most units ive seen have been in 'serviceable' condition. You have to rmember a fuse blowing from a fault makes a mess!

 

[oldtimer]

Guys I have went to plenty of CUs burnt out like the one Andy has highlighted and IMO its all down to slack connections in the CU hence why the fuse carrier burnsout example below also a fault like this will be highlighted if the circuit has a big load hence why it happens on a shower.


Also just to add Mandatory EICRs are not going to happen in this current economical climate yes I know we for safety reasons they need to catch out dodgy landlords but in affect they will just continue to break the or any law where the housing associations and the tenant of social housing will end up bearing most of the cost and no government will let that happen. You also have to remember where we have come from ie a 2 way fuseboard where your granny (well mine did) plugged her iron into the light point so we have come a long way but change will come through incremental change and not legislation

 

[BigAndyB]

Also just to add Mandatory EICRs are not going to happen in this current economical climate yes I know we for safety reasons they need to catch out dodgy landlords but in affect they will just continue to break the or any law where the housing associations and the tenant of social housing will end up bearing most of the cost and no government will let that happen.

Thanks Oldtimer,
Problem, this is a reputable company! Very hard not to tar them all with the same brush, even i have rented from them in the past.

 

[Mark8v]

Nicholas, I think your campaign is a very good idea.

As someone with experience of both electrics and renting I can say a lot of emphasis is placed on gas safety checks but virtually none on the electrical side. I rented for nearly 5 years at two different properties and nothing was ever checked.

Test on change of occupancy is a must as there's no telling what diy alterations may have been made. Mini test every 5 years is probably a good compromise between safety and practicality.

 

[Knobhead]

At the end of the day the OP didn't start this as a safety issue. It's a money making scam.

 

[imago]

At the end of the day the OP didn't start this as a safety issue. It's a money making scam.

Which unfortunately describes EICRs in general under the current regulations and governance of the schemes. Unless a governing body starts to sample EICR test results and recommendations then increasing the frequency/number of them carried out would be completely pointless.

 

[UNG]

Which unfortunately describes EICRs in general under the current regulations and governance of the schemes.

Not following your point here. Are you suggesting all EICR's are a complete waste of time unless you have the intervention of an overseeing body

Unless a governing body starts to sample EICR test results and recommendations then increasing the frequency/number of them carried out would be completely pointless.

And if a governing body did this who is picking up the cost as this would require another site visit for another electrician and cause inconvenience as well as expense for the customer

Then if there are differing opinions on an installations safety who is right, I can see it now an experienced time served guy getting his EICR knocked back by a 17DW and a big argument kicking off

This idea just adds to the madness of the OP's original idea