New cable support regulation 521.10.202 (18th)

[Darkwood]

Regarding the above regulation, it is now a requirement that in the event of a fire ALL wiring systems now need to be designed and installed to ensure they do not prematurely collapse thus put lives at risk be it of the general public or that of the emergency services.

I want to just open a discussion on why the IET has failed to mention the use of plastic rawl plugs or similar fixing as it has been shown that they fail under test conditions, also to discuss the alternatives given that we are looking at a possible steel plugs as a option. Now it is my believe that you only need to ensure support at intervals and in between standard fixings are acceptable as long as the fire rated supports can carry the weight without the standard fixings given these may fail.

I am now designing jobs to start in the new year and will be complying to the 18th so just wondering who out there is both aware and has a good cheap solution?

 

[Yplan]

That's a bloody good question pal! I didn't even think of the rawl plugs.

 

[Spoon]

We did have a thread where we discussed this.
I'll see if I can find it....

 

[telectrix]

even screwfux can supply these'
https://www.NoLinkingToThis/p/rawlplug-metal-wall-plugs-6-x-32mm-50-pack/958
maybe use 1 in 3 fixings.

 

[SparkyChick]

I did go looking for options when this first cropped up.

There's obviously the D-Line clips that go in trunking. For plastic conduit use metal saddles and possibly fix them to the wall with something like Walldogs which don't need a wall plug.

There's the good old fashioned buckle clip, but again you'd been needing to secure it with something that won't fail (possibly Walldogs, although I suspect the head of the screw may be a bit big).

P-Clips... same issue as above.

I did find these:-

Linian 1LCR608 Fire Rated Cable Clip 6-8MM - Red - https://www.thesafetycentreshop.co.uk/linian-1lcr608-fire-rated-cable-clip-6-8mm-red

Which look quite neat, just drill a hole and insert them. Not sure how practical they'd be for say a single cable.

But it's yet another grey area as there isn't really a definition of 'premature'. How long do the supports need to last? What about plasterboard on ceilings? Will that be good enough?

Which leads on to where do we stand with cables in floor/ceiling voids that you can't access for example? I've just done a job where I can't access long stretches of the void, so the cables are just laying in there. Are we expected to tell the customer we're going to have to tear down a partition wall so we can properly fix the cables in place? Can't see many of them going for that personally

As for why they haven't explicitly mentioned rawl plugs... I suspect they would argue they don't need to because their wording encompasses all possibilities. If it could collapse, you shouldn't use it as the sole means of support.

Regards your belief you only need support at intervals... I concur. I believe Note 3 clears this up. "This regulation precludes, for example, the use of non-metallic cable clips or cable ties as the sole means of support where cables are clipped direct to exposed surfaces or suspended under cable tray, and the use of non-metallic cable trunking as the sole means of support of the cables therein."

 

[Andy78]

Anyone found custom designed replacements for plastic SWA cleats without resorting to the bodge of all purpose banding ?

 

[SparkyChick]

Anyone found custom designed replacements for plastic SWA cleats without resorting to the bodge of all purpose banding ?

Not yet sadly.

 

[SparkyChick]

Just had a quick look....

Metal Cable Cleats | For Single, Multicore & Trefoil Applications | CMP - https://www.cmp-products.com/cable-cleats/product-range/metallic-cable-cleats/
Single Way Cable Clamps & Cleats - Cable Cleats & Cable Ties - https://www.etscablecomponents.com/cable-cleats-cable-ties/single-way-cable-clamps-cleats.html

Could become very costly I suspect.

 

[Midwest]

What about plasterboard on ceilings? Will that be good enough?

Which leads on to where do we stand with cables in floor/ceiling voids that you can't access for example? I've just done a job where I can't access long stretches of the void, so the cables are just laying in there. Are we expected to tell the customer we're going to have to tear down a partition wall so we can properly fix the cables in place? Can't see many of them going for that personally

A standard plasterboard ceiling & walls provide a 30 min barrier. I've not looked at document B, but I'm led to believe that cables in those voids, negate the need for fireproof fixings, as per the said reg being discussed.

 

[Andy78]

Just had a quick look....

Metal Cable Cleats | For Single, Multicore & Trefoil Applications | CMP - https://www.cmp-products.com/cable-cleats/product-range/metallic-cable-cleats/
Single Way Cable Clamps & Cleats - Cable Cleats & Cable Ties - https://www.etscablecomponents.com/cable-cleats-cable-ties/single-way-cable-clamps-cleats.html

Could become very costly I suspect.

As could twin and earth clipping. Roughly £15 and upwards for 100 buckle clips

 

[happysteve]

I've advised my wholesaler to talk to Linian. Their clips can be used with cable (including SWA, replacing plastic cleats) and conduit. Spoke to them at Coventry Elex, they reckon they'll have grey clips (for T&E) by the new year.

Not tried them yet myself; at the moment I'm using the D-Line U-clips over doors, and metal saddles on PVC conduit, but neither are ideal visually.

Spoke to Q-Crimp at Elex too (whose T&E clips I favour), they said, "we'll have something available in the new year." It seems many of the manufacturers would have appreciated a bit more notice on this...

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Anyone found custom designed replacements for plastic SWA cleats without resorting to the bodge of all purpose banding ?

@Andy78 @SparkyChick are these sort of thing you are thinking of? not sure on the pricing? but would almost certainly satisfy the new regulations?
Metal Cable Cleats | For Single, Multicore & Trefoil Applications | CMP - https://www.cmp-products.com/cable-cleats/product-range/metallic-cable-cleats/

EDIT
Just realised you all already had the same thought! The helios cleats are good though, Have used them in a garage before. Not sure on price as they were supplied with the equipment I was installing.

 

[SparkyChick]

@Andy78 @SparkyChick are these sort of thing you are thinking of? not sure on the pricing? but would almost certainly satisfy the new regulations?
Metal Cable Cleats | For Single, Multicore & Trefoil Applications | CMP - https://www.cmp-products.com/cable-cleats/product-range/metallic-cable-cleats/

I suspect no on the CMP ones because of price, they are stainless steel, but I've not been able to find that many alternatives.

One cheap and nasty option may be to put a length of all-band inside a cleat, but getting the holes to line up would be a mare, but then maybe do that every other cleat and just stick to using plastic. Wouldn't be too hard for the manufacturers to include a spring steel band in the cleats themselves, that would solve a lot of the problems straight off.

 

[Gavin John Hyde]

Dont suppose what I saw on a job today meets the new regs? It utilises nails and metal wires!!

 

[SparkyChick]

Quite neat though other than the fixings

 

[MDJ]

Dont suppose what I saw on a job today meets the new regs? It utilises nails and metal wires!!

View attachment 45178

View attachment 45180

I have seen this a 100 times, I wouldn't do it, but it is okay IMO, very common practice by quite a lot of people. It looks rough and isn't the best way, but it probably does comply lol, what else can we say?

 

[ruston]

By the time that burns enough for the clout nails to come out I think the roof would be down anyway.

 

[Darkwood]

I would also heed caution on choosing aluminium as a fixing choice, as I understand it the fixings have to withstand temperatures that fall within a range that would greatly reduce aluminium's structural integrity, I cannot comment about aluminium alloys as that would depend on what it made up of.
I see some of these fixing companies have opted for aluminium so possibly a chat to there technical support wouldn't go amiss if that becomes your weapon of choice.

 

[Spoon]

This is the thread I was talking about.
Should have posted it sooner but the daughter wanted me to play Minecraft with her...

 

[Ian1981]

I think if your worried about plastic wall plugs failing the surrounding structure will have failed anyhow.
I don’t buy into the fact that you can’t use them at all to be honest.
I need more information to be sure tho