Rewired bungalow, before i plaster have i missed anything?!

[bez101]

Hey up chaps,
I have rewired my bungalow over last couple of days and before the plastering is done i just want to check i havent missed anything that will prevent it from being signed off. (I am an industrial electrician so domestic is not my bread and butter, but what i have done is safe).

I have ran

*a ringmain for the kitchen,
*One for the rest of the house (only 2 bedroom).
*One lighting circuit throughout. (Smoke detectors and bathroom Fan off this)
*Another circuit for outside lighting,
*Cooker.
*Boiler.

I have a 6mm earth running from DB (linked to Gas coming in and electrics coming in) Going to the bathroom plumbing.

I have heard i need a 10mm Earth to go from my db to my cold water in...? is this so, if so can i take it up into the loft and connect onto the cold water in at the boiler (as it is inpractical to bring it to under the sink).

My chases are not capped with earthed metal capping so i understand i need RCD protection.. is that so? Will i have to purchase a 17th edition board.

I am unsure on what has to be Rcd protected, is it just my sockets and outside lighting? then put the rest on normal mcb? or could i run everything on Rcd's


Is there anything i have missed that will be picked up on inspection?.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated... thanks alot,

Phil...

 

[A-Non-eMouse]

smoke detectors have to be on there own circuit (and interlinked if more than one), or fed off a frequently used lighting circuit with isolation from it. you might as well just take a feed back to the mains for the smokes if the ceilings are still down etc.

talking of lighting circuits i think you have to have more than one anyway, so you dont lose all lighting in the event of a fault.

10mm earth has to be within 600mm of entry of service on the consumers side of stop cock.

you need a 17th edition board as it has two rcds and these should cover everything. all circuits need to be protected by rcd pretty much in domestic, ie except for chased cables deeper than 50mm or protected by earth metal conduit yadda yadda blah blah

 

[sparky paul]

10mm earth has to be within 600mm of entry of service on the consumers side of stop cock.

That would be ideal scenario but it doesnt have to be


He can still bond the water and gas outside of the 600mm ,but if he does this then he must install supplementary bonding to bathroom.

 

[Amp David]

Your smokes will be fine, as you've taken them off the lighting circuit.

Don't think its a requirement to have split lighting, but just good practice, just so you don't loose all lighting at once. (in the event of a fault)

If you've already installed you CU and its not fully RCD protected, then although expensive, you can use RCBOs to protect your circuits.

 

[bez101]

Thanks alot for the info guys,

I have not yet installed a CU as the original was fairly recent but i had come to terms with the fact RCD protection is required so i will buy a new unit.

I am unable to run a 10mm to within 600mm, more like 2500mm unfortunatly.
So i could bond to the water in pipe on the boiler? but then also have to bond everything in the bathroom? what does that include? things like the towel radiator and taps etc? oh dear....

 

[Sintra]

Fire detection circuits must be supplied independently of other circuits and not protected by an Rcd protecting multiple circuits. 560.7.1

The smoke alarms have to be interconnected, have a battery backup, and be permanently supplied from a separate way in the ccu, or supplied from a local lighting circuit that is regularly used. Please note this requirement conflicts with 560.7.1

Except for TT systems, the circuit supplying a smoke alarm should not be protected by an RCD. For TT systems the smoke alarm must be supplied from the fixed equipment section of the ccu, not through a 30mA RCD.

 

[andart]

all circuits in a bathroom must be rcd protected.
If they are rcd protedted and circuits comply with the regs for automatic disconection then you dont need supplementary bonding in the bathroom.

good luck,

andy

 

[Amp David]

Split load board then with RCBOs for your lighting and smokes. Surely this would be ok?

 

[bez101]

all circuits in a bathroom must be rcd protected.
If they are rcd protedted and circuits comply with the regs for automatic disconection then you dont need supplementary bonding in the bathroom.

good luck,

andy

Thanks alot Andy,

I am installing a dual RCD CU now, so everything will be RCD protected so aslong as i have a 10mm earth from my incommer to my cold water pipe on boiler (which is in the loft, nowhere near the bathroom) i should be safe?.

thanks again,

Phil...

 

[acat]

Dont forget you will need independant isolation from lighting circuit for fan and sensors ig you leave them connected to the lights.




Chris

 

[bez101]

Dont forget you will need independant isolation from lighting circuit for fan and sensors ig you leave them connected to the lights.




Chris

Would a standard light switch be classed as independant isolation for the fan? i do have one for the fan currently. How would i go about independantly isolating the smoke detectors and (although i understand its regulations) what would this be for?

thanks,

Phil...

 

[monkeyelectric]

Would a standard light switch be classed as independant isolation for the fan? i do have one for the fan currently. How would i go about independantly isolating the smoke detectors and (although i understand its regulations) what would this be for?

thanks,

Phil...

You'll need a triple pole isolater for the fan for maintenance purposes and a fused spur would be ok for the smokes, its so they can be tested without having to turn all the lights off and do it in the dark

 

[Amp David]

MK 10A 3 Pole Fan Isolator Sw - Screwfix.com, Where the Trade Buys


You will need a CU with a spare way not protected by an RCD for your light/smoke circuit.

Sintra has already given the relevent regs

 

[Spudnik]

Smoke detectors do not require their own dedicated circuit in a domestic installation.

It is perfectly acceptable to power them from a local regularly used lighting circuit.

As for their isolation, well, thats down to the individual.

Some argue that a separate isolator is required so that they can be maintained, whilst others (quite correctly) have said that they do not require one, as they can be slid off the base, or connections unplugged.

So, with that in mind, there is nothing in a smoke detector that is user/installer maintainable, apart from replacing the battery, so the only time one would remove one is to replace it.

Have a read here:

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...257-smoke-detectors-own-circuit-lighting.html

 

[A-Non-eMouse]

if your keeping your smokes coming off the lights and your only having one light circuit you will have to cover them with an rcd, unless your not having lights in the bathroom that is

 

[acat]

Agree with just about everything you say Jason but looking at part B in the building regs book page 123 after the lighting circuit bit it says " there should be a means of isolating the supply to the alarms without switching off the lighting"

Im confused now (thats not difficult)


Chris

 

[MarcT]

You might need to employ an RCBO for the alarm circuit if you cant satisfy 522.6.5 (>50mm) any other way. I've not seen a regulation that precludes this on battery backed detectors.

 

[Davey101]

I'm confused too.....
I thought there was a reg (dont have time to look for it now), that states that safety circuits shall be on their own supply?
On my 17th editon course we were specifically told that smoke detectors should not be RCD protected (unless its a TT system). This means not putting them on a lighting circuit.
TBH, I havent installed a 17th edition board yet, as all my work for the last couple of years has been industrial(ish), so I'm not in the loop as to practical applications.

You might need to employ an RCBO for the alarm circuit if you cant satisfy 522.6.5 (>50mm) any other way. I've not seen a regulation that precludes this on battery backed detectors.

Smoke detector wiring is unlikely to be in the wall, so this shouldnt be relevant

 

[Spudnik]

Agree with just about everything you say Jason but looking at part B in the building regs book page 123 after the lighting circuit bit it says " there should be a means of isolating the supply to the alarms without switching off the lighting"

Im confused now (thats not difficult)


Chris

Slide them off the base, or unplug them.

No need to turn off the lighting circuit to do that.

What you must also remember is that some of these regs are steered a little more towards dedicated fire alarm panels and systems installed in blocks of flats and public buildings.

Smoke detector wiring is unlikely to be in the wall, so this shouldnt be relevant

The interlinks could be.

 

[Davey101]

The interlinks could be.

Bit of FP it is then!

Also, is there an actual Reg stating that the fans HAVE to be fed via an isolator. I thought the reg read said something about all current using equipment must have a means of isolation, or something similar. However, I had a conversation with a chap who does nothing but test, and seems pretty clued up, who was pretty emphatic that you do NOT need an isolator for fans etc, I wasnt in the mood to argue, so just left it (still always fit isolators though).

Back to the OP's original question- I'm presuming that this is your bungalow, rather than a 'cash job'
I'd be inclined to wire 2 lighting circuits (and you may fail regs if you dont), I'd also try to wire the lights in the loft on their own circuit, otherswise if you have to alter the wiring (replacing trannies etc), you will be doing it in the dark! (I try to wire the loft lights on the downstairs circuit, but obviously you cant do that).

Have you wired enough T.V points? Especially think about future Sky/Virgin boxes. Make sure you use the correct cable, and the right amount (pf/ct100 is needed for Virgin, not sure about Sky, Sky+needs two cables)
Telephone points? Although you probably get away with one these days with wireless phones.
Cat 5e for a home network? More and more devices have some sort of connection to the internet (T.V.s, Blurays,amplifiers/media streamers etc etc), and this will only increase. Although you will be able to use your p.c or laptop anywhere with a wireless router, these other devices, at present, are mostly not wireless.
Intruder alarm? Again, you can get wireless, but wired is better.
Might just be me, but I'd be inclined to pull extra cables to my light switches, just in case you fancy changing things in the future
Again, probably just me, but I wired a contactor, switched from a light switch in my lounge, to turn my TV etc off when I leave the room. Saves electricity, and the planet, saves having to hunt for remotes as well.

 

[bez101]

It is my own house, no Cash job or anything (im industrial so keep away from most guvvies).

i have wired a tv point into the living room and one to the bedroom, this should be sufficient my needs.
Also ran a phone cable to 2 points and a satelite coax ready for the sky dish to join onto.


You points about an intruder alarm being wired have been taken... i like your contactor idea haha, very good, i am toying with something like that now...

cheers for all the advice!!

 

[ian.settle1]

Bit of FP it is then!

Also, is there an actual Reg stating that the fans HAVE to be fed via an isolator. I thought the reg read said something about all current using equipment must have a means of isolation, or something similar. However, I had a conversation with a chap who does nothing but test, and seems pretty clued up, who was pretty emphatic that you do NOT need an isolator for fans etc, I wasnt in the mood to argue, so just left it (still always fit isolators though).

Back to the OP's original question- I'm presuming that this is your bungalow, rather than a 'cash job'
I'd be inclined to wire 2 lighting circuits (and you may fail regs if you dont), I'd also try to wire the lights in the loft on their own circuit, otherswise if you have to alter the wiring (replacing trannies etc), you will be doing it in the dark! (I try to wire the loft lights on the downstairs circuit, but obviously you cant do that).

Have you wired enough T.V points? Especially think about future Sky/Virgin boxes. Make sure you use the correct cable, and the right amount (pf/ct100 is needed for Virgin, not sure about Sky, Sky+needs two cables)
Telephone points? Although you probably get away with one these days with wireless phones.
Cat 5e for a home network? More and more devices have some sort of connection to the internet (T.V.s, Blurays,amplifiers/media streamers etc etc), and this will only increase. Although you will be able to use your p.c or laptop anywhere with a wireless router, these other devices, at present, are mostly not wireless.
Intruder alarm? Again, you can get wireless, but wired is better.
Might just be me, but I'd be inclined to pull extra cables to my light switches, just in case you fancy changing things in the future
Again, probably just me, but I wired a contactor, switched from a light switch in my lounge, to turn my TV etc off when I leave the room. Saves electricity, and the planet, saves having to hunt for remotes as well.[/QUOTE]

Whats wrong with switching them off at the set by using the remote it is not fully switching off the tv etc only putting it on stand-by.

 

[Sintra]

Extractor fans must be provided with an easily accessible means of switching off the supply. 132.15.2

Electrical equipment that may cause injury during mechanical maintenance ie fans, must be provided with a means to switch off the supply. 537.3.1.1

All items of current using equipment must be provided with a functional switching device. 537.5.1.3

 

[IP4X]

Not too sure if its mentioned but remember to locate your socket outlets and switches between 450mm and 1200mm above the floor level. Part M.
??
Also if you have given notice to building controll they will want to inspect first fix before you cover up. They should....but dont always.
I sometimes put a discreet EM light (£14) above the CU if there is only one light circuit as these rcds will trip eveytime a light bulb blows! saves you scratching in the dark.
As for that smoke detetor circuit...just stick it on a spare mcb. Saves all the hassle.
Also make sure the detector in the kitchen is a heat detector for those steak frying moments
cheers

 

[MarcT]

NM emergency, a man after my own heart.

 

[Davey101]

Whats wrong with switching them off at the set by using the remote it is not fully switching off the tv etc only putting it on stand-by.

Easier to use a light switch, when you walk out the door, you just press the light switch(if the lights are on), and the 'appliance switch'. Especially usefull when you come into the room, just press the switch, and your tv comes on (presuming that your tv 'powers on' when you restore the mains), no looking for the remote Also usefull if you have several things you want to switch off.


Thanks Sintra, are all these regs off the top of your head, or do you just really like using your regs book
I thought there was one reg, didnt realise there was 3 to get him with
Good point about the heights of accessories (I'd be inclined to put them where I wanted though), the em fitting sounds a good idea as well.

 

[super_stuey]

Minimum sockets heights are for NEW BUILDINGS/EXTENSIONS ONLY!! Stick em where you want bud

 

[Sav]

On a last job I recently did, I put the smoke alarms and heat detector ( interlinked and battery back ups) on an rcbo and also the hallway lights on their own rcbo. So in the event of an rcd failure on the consumer unit, the hallway lights and alarms would still be ok. With back batteries on the alarms, in the event of the rcbo tripping, they would still function, but the green led light on the bases would not be on.
The cert was issued and accepted.
So do you guys think thats ok, or would you advise differently for me to do in the future.
Thanks again and best regards,
Sav

 

[slocm3105]

Minimum sockets heights are for NEW BUILDINGS/EXTENSIONS ONLY!! Stick em where you want bud

You are correct by what you say here, however, you cannot make them any less accesible than the sockets currently are i.e if you have sockets all over just above the skirting, you cannot mount them on the skirting etc.

 

[Sintra]

On a last job I recently did, I put the smoke alarms and heat detector ( interlinked and battery back ups) on an rcbo and also the hallway lights on their own rcbo. So in the event of an rcd failure on the consumer unit, the hallway lights and alarms would still be ok. With back batteries on the alarms, in the event of the rcbo tripping, they would still function, but the green led light on the bases would not be on.
The cert was issued and accepted.
So do you guys think thats ok, or would you advise differently for me to do in the future.
Thanks again and best regards,
Sav

As posted earlier in thread.

Fire detection circuits must be supplied independently of other circuits and not protected by an Rcd protecting multiple circuits. 560.7.1

The smoke alarms have to be interconnected, have a battery backup, and be permanently supplied from a separate way in the ccu, or supplied from a local lighting circuit that is regularly used. Please note this requirement conflicts with 560.7.1

Except for TT systems, the circuit supplying a smoke alarm should not be protected by an RCD. For TT systems the smoke alarm must be supplied from the fixed equipment section of the ccu, not through a 30mA RCD.

 

[supasparxs]

It is my own house, no Cash job or anything (im industrial so keep away from most guvvies).

i have wired a tv point into the living room and one to the bedroom, this should be sufficient my needs.
Also ran a phone cable to 2 points and a satelite coax ready for the sky dish to join onto.


You points about an intruder alarm being wired have been taken... i like your contactor idea haha, very good, i am toying with something like that now...

cheers for all the advice!!

as it's for yourself, have you considered wiring a computer network (wired network is faster and more secure than wirless)

also wiring wall or ceiling speekers for your soround sound system?

these are things I have included in my house

(thats why it's taken 3 years, and hopefully it'll be finnished before the 18edition comes in)

Richard

 

[super_stuey]

You are correct by what you say here, however, you cannot make them any less accesible than the sockets currently are i.e if you have sockets all over just above the skirting, you cannot mount them on the skirting etc.

Fair one bud good point. Just didnt want the chap thinking he had to start ragging back boxes out and startin over! l

 

[Sav]

Hi Sintra,
Thanks for the reply.
Just got out the 17th edition ( from my frost covered van ).

Reg 560.7.1 states Circuits odf sfaety services shall be independent of other circuits. It does not mention that they should not be RCD protected.

However, according to BS5839-6:2004 Fire detection and Fire alarm systems for builings, it states
The circuit supplying these systems should preferably NOT be protected by an RCD. This however is going to be difficult to achieve, if the circuit supplying these systems is buried in the walls less than 50mm and standard domestic wiring systems used.
Indeed, the supply cables would need to be specially protected in earthed metal conduit etc, for RCD protection not to be used.
Options for circuits supplying fire or smoke alarms in dwellings protected by an RCD include:

1/ The RCD serves only that circuit. For example with the use of an RCBO
2/ The RCD operates independently of any RCD feeding socket or portable equipment.

Hope this helps or clears things up slightly.......or maybe not !!!!

Sav

 

[Sintra]

Hi Sav I agree.


The wording states should not. Not must not.

Except for TT systems, the circuit supplying a smoke alarm should not be protected by an RCD.

It is only preferable not to RCD smoke alarm circuits.

 

[steviesparks]

smokes and medical equipment, its more commonsense than written into BS7671, if all else trips you don't want granddads defibrillator switched off, or the smokes not working.

 

[bez101]

I am to wire my dual split rcd board as so...

RCD One governing Inside Lights, Outside Lights, Boiler.

RCD Two governing Sockets, Kitchen Sockets, Cooker.


So strictly speaking No portable equipment etc will trip my lighting (thus my fire alarms).

I cannot win as such, i have to have my lighting on an RCD becuase the bathroom is included but ideally my smokes shouldnt be on an Rcd. Worst comes to worst and anything is tripping my lighting it will get rectified so im not going to be without smokes for any period of time.

(Doing my head in a bit to be honnest, might pull the sodding cables back up to loft and put battery ones back in!!)

Supasparxs: i have ran all speaker cables to bathroom, kitchen and pottential hifi points in my living room so i have that covered. I havent really bothered with a network cable as i have a wireless modem and it is sufficient for what i use, but it has been considered.


Thanks alot guys, all very appreciated,

Keep it coming if you can think of anything...

Phil...

 

[Davey101]

Unfortunatley you aren't allowed under building regs to install battery powered alarms.
Saying that, I presume that you are not getting building control involved? If thats the case, I shouldnt think the spark testing your electrics will be interested if you have smokes installed or not? In other words, if you have wired smoke detectors, the spark will have to test them. If you havent got any, then he wont be testing them.
If you are worried about failing the electrical installation because of the smokes, I'd be inclined to not connect them, and reconnect them after its been tested.
Someone else will have to confirm that smokes will not be tested though.

Whilst we are on the subject of smokes, have you checked where you need to install them? Its surprising how many you have to install these days, there is a list in the OSG IIRC.

One more point- have you got the board yet? Most seem to have a facility to enable you to connect smokes etc without them being on either RCD. Such as- 17th Edition Fuse boards & consumer units

 

[IP4X]

Minimum sockets heights are for NEW BUILDINGS/EXTENSIONS ONLY!! Stick em where you want bud

Hi there
You are spot on there.
Dont want to give any false information. Just that all the jobs I have done through BC, they have insisted on it, refurbs, full rewires...etc
I can only assume that you are doing the job through BC or you have a friend who knows your standard of work who can sign it off? You should ask them but this is a very trivial issue as long as you havent made it any less part m compliant.
Cheers

 

[Des 56]

What is peoples problem putting smoke alarms with battery back up on a local lighting circuit
The alarm system that should not be affected by interuption to another circuit is geared toward non domestic situations

In a domestic,if there is no battery back up then it needs its own circuit

Smokes with battery back up, in any practical situation the battery will take over for any period of interuption until the lghts suoply is reset,this would be a short period unless the householder was quietly decomposing in the dark

I have heard the arguments for its own circuit, but have not accepted any views that I have heard that would make a domestic alarm circuit to be improved by having a seperate circuit

 

[Davey101]

I have heard the arguments for its own circuit, but have not accepted any views that I have heard that would make a domestic alarm circuit to be improved by having a seperate circuit

I think its simply the fact that with the 17th, and RCD's, tripping of one half of a board is quite likely, and who knows how long it will be until the fault is fixed?
If you are saying that they are backed up by a battery, so it doesnt matter, then you could use that argument for a standalone panel, in say a factory, its probably got a battery that will last 24 hours, but you wouldnt wire it off a local ring main.
Not saying its that important, but you can see where they are coming from.