Trying to understand 3 phase

[Paul.M]

Surely if the op is Training to be an Electrician then the best place for him is in the Trainee section where he can get the help he needs.imo

PM sent to the OP with a link to the application section, this needs to be filled in before entrance is allowed. This will give him the member status of "Trainee" so when he posts questions in the main forums everyone can see it and hopefully do not give any Trainee a hard time for asking what we would class as a daft/simple question. This is one of the main parts of being a TS member.

Any Trainee can ask questions in whatever forum they like but in the TS there is a very strict rule about being nice without abuse or derogatory comments, this includes towards some trainees that are on fast track or distant learning programs. We can not be discriminating towards any member in there regardless of their path towards becoming an electrician.


Ps I really like the way that several members have entered into an electrical conversation to help out an apprentice without any abuse!!!! Should be like this on all the threads.

 

[baldsparkies]

Also its important that the lad fully understands the subject of the day before moving on to the next step.
Its a big forest and if he moves ahead to quickly he will only get confused and lost.
Its the old walk before run scenario.

 

[GB.Kayak]

No, CSEs were the lower ones and GCE O Levels were the higher level ones. After that you had A levels if you were staying on for 6th form but I left and got my apprenticeship so went down the C&G route.

General Certificate of Education (GCE) had 2 levels: Ordinary, 'O' levels, generally examined at 15 - 16 and Advanced, 'A' levels, generally examined at 17 - 18. Certificate of Secondary Education (CSE) was introduced, probably with secondary 'modern' schools in the late '60s or '70s. It provided a more practically based curriculum more suited to those undertaking 'vocational' qualifications such as apprenticeships. Now if we want to diverge down this Christmas' and New Year's 'rabbit hole' ... it is getting a little 'Alice in Wonderland' ish ... perhaps here in the 'lefty liberal' changes to our education system perpetrated since ~'60s we would find the roots of the weeds that are choking our education and industry today! Discuss.

 

[trev]

Reforms to the education system are not and have not been the sole preserve of the left mate.
Also I'd much rather be a "lefty liberal" than a supporter or member of this heartless coalition which knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Reforms to the education system are not and have not been the sole preserve of the left mate.
Also I'd much rather be a "lefty liberal" than a supporter or member of this heartless coalition which knows the cost of everything but the value of nothing.

Thanks trev for takin t' bait on that one. I forget which party it was that tried to open up university access to all and then which party took up the 'idea' of the apprenticeship and turned it into the 'apprenticeship' for all and a parody of what an apprenticeship used to be. Both initiatives, in my view, have not served the UK well!

 

[TJ Anderson]

Morrisons Supermarket actually run apprenticeships working on the checkouts. Great for government figures, not so great for the "apprentice".

 

[Knobhead]

PM sent to the OP with a link to the application section, this needs to be filled in before entrance is allowed. This will give him the member status of "Trainee" so when he posts questions in the main forums everyone can see it and hopefully do not give any Trainee a hard time for asking what we would class as a daft/simple question. This is one of the main parts of being a TS member.

Any Trainee can ask questions in whatever forum they like but in the TS there is a very strict rule about being nice without abuse or derogatory comments, this includes towards some trainees that are on fast track or distant learning programs. We can not be discriminating towards any member in there regardless of their path towards becoming an electrician.


Ps I really like the way that several members have entered into an electrical conversation to help out an apprentice without any abuse!!!! Should be like this on all the threads.

PM sent to the OP with an offer of one to one tuition which he’s accepted. It won’t be easy, but if he’s willing he’s going to learn.

Paul, you are not a qualified trainer and your position in the training section is very tenuous.

 

[GB.Kayak]

Morrisons Supermarket actually run apprenticeships working on the checkouts. Great for government figures, not so great for the "apprentice".

Careful ... those with a real apprenticeship might begin to feel their qualification devalued! ;-)

 

[Paul.M]

PM sent to the OP with an offer of one to one tuition which he’s accepted. It won’t be easy, but if he’s willing he’s going to learn.

Paul, you are not a qualified trainer and your position in the training section is very tenuous.

Great that you are helping out a trainee member Tony, I really do like it, honest.

At no time have I said that I am a "trainer, lecturer, teacher" or any other form educator. I'm a Mod for that and other sections. In the TS my role is to keep an eye on it, generate interest, answer forum questions for the users (most are new to here) things like how to post up a thread, post a picture etc. I give support to its members eg, one lad lost his job the other day, a bit of moral support via a forum can go a long way and effect people in the real world in a positive way.

The TS is not an online classroom, more of a 6th form common room where the trainees can talk about anything electrical and get help from the Mentors, 2 of which are qualified tutors btw. Other Mentors we all know and trust like Trev, Tel, GMES, MDJ, Rob, Pete Dillb etc.

I dont where you got the idea that I am a "trainer"??? Nothing of the sort has ever been posted. I am part of a group of electricians that have Mentor status for the TS so we can discuss electrical matters with students without any of the normal bitterness of the main forum. It takes the correct forum attitude to become a Mentor, something that not everyone has.

 

[Knobhead]

OK you’re the moderator over a “chat room” for trainees. There must be some training goes on in there, otherwise what is the point of it?

And this is where the difference comes between you and I.
I believe in a formal system of training. Therefore I firmly believe people involved in it should have undergone formal training to pass knowledge on.

One of the best things about teaching is when the question comes that stops you in your tracks, eeerr, hang on, I’ve got to look in to that and get back to you.
If you want to learn, teaching is the best way. You’re constantly running just a couple of steps ahead and it often happens that you’re overtaken. You’ll feel proud when that happens.

When I went to engineering collage the “regulations” were never mentioned they don't come in to electrical theory.
It was in the main pure theory with the added fun of being let loose in the power and electronics laboratories along with the opportunity to blow yourself up if you were daft enough to do it. Sorry to say the HSE and litigation put paid to that learning opportunity.

I’ll add, I’ve not killed an apprentice yet. Singed a couple with practical experiments but not killed any.
A practical experiment with an overloaded transformer turned in to a fire fighting exercise. I don’t have those resources now, mores the pity because on that occasion the two lads learnt far more than they would ever learn in a lecture theatre.
The best lecturer we had was an ex coal board R&D mechanical engineer. The guy was crazy but you never forgot that days subject.

Anyone that went though the old EITB system toward the end of their time would be taught how to pass knowledge on. As a final year apprentice you would be expected to mentor first year lads. I think Geordie went down that route, I know he was a trainer before coming out of his time.
Later I had to gain formal qualifications.

 

[shanky887614]

OK you’re the moderator over a “chat room” for trainees. There must be some training goes on in there, otherwise what is the point of it?

And this is where the difference comes between you and I.
I believe in a formal system of training. Therefore I firmly believe people involved in it should have undergone formal training to pass knowledge on.

One of the best things about teaching is when the question comes that stops you in your tracks, eeerr, hang on, I’ve got to look in to that and get back to you.
If you want to learn, teaching is the best way. You’re constantly running just a couple of steps ahead and it often happens that you’re overtaken. You’ll feel proud when that happens.

When I went to engineering collage the “regulations” were never mentioned they don't come in to electrical theory.
It was in the main pure theory with the added fun of being let loose in the power and electronics laboratories along with the opportunity to blow yourself up if you were daft enough to do it. Sorry to say the HSE and litigation put paid to that learning opportunity.

I’ll add, I’ve not killed an apprentice yet. Singed a couple with practical experiments but not killed any.
A practical experiment with an overloaded transformer turned in to a fire fighting exercise. I don’t have those resources now, mores the pity because on that occasion the two lads learnt far more than they would ever learn in a lecture theatre.
The best lecturer we had was an ex coal board R&D mechanical engineer. The guy was crazy but you never forgot that days subject.

Anyone that went though the old EITB system toward the end of their time would be taught how to pass knowledge on. As a final year apprentice you would be expected to mentor first year lads. I think Geordie went down that route, I know he was a trainer before coming out of his time.
Later I had to gain formal qualifications.

thats the way my firm works, they expet me to start showing someone new the ropes quite soon.

i have been with then under 3 years lol i dont have as broad experience as id like to show someone what to do

 

[Paul.M]

OK you’re the moderator over a “chat room” for trainees. There must be some training goes on in there, otherwise what is the point of it?

And this is where the difference comes between you and I.
I believe in a formal system of training. Therefore I firmly believe people involved in it should have undergone formal training to pass knowledge on.

Training kind of happens in there but not in the form you may be thinking. The TS is a safe haven for any student to ask whatever question they want to and replies are posted without any nastiness from anyone. We do not do their home work for them neither, we ask them to post up their own thoughts and have a go at their own problem/question and help them find the answer. It has got to the stage now where level 3 students are helping out the first years! Brilliant, a chat room where students from all over the country (and one from Australia) are supporting one another.

Mentors also set up a quiz every now and again, seems to be popular so I'm going to ask the other Mentors to post up a question, one a week starting this month. 4 of us got together and set up a competition with the prizes coming out of our own pockets, nothing but respect to those involved. I estimated that about £300 was given away to 15 winners. The top prize is the new Yellow regs book when it come out. It is more of a small community than a classroom.

We have got to know some of the trainees very well over the last year, it is a great feeling when they post up that they have passed whichever exam they were researching. One of them failed his L3 I&T exam, several phones calls later just going through the things he did not fully understand and he passed the re-sit. In his own words "I f***ing p*ssed it!" Other mentors have done the same and given one to one help via PM's or phone calls, we are not teachers but after all we are only talking about L2, L3, 17th Ed and going into the 2394/5. At this stage most trainees are able to hold their own in the main forum and post up questions on there. Shanky for example.

I also believe in formal training but most of these guys do not have the luxury of working along side an electrician. Some are young lads working in another trade or doing rubbish jobs due to not being able to find employment in the electrical sector. There is a wide range of people in there from school leavers (17ish) to late 30's going for a career change. And before anyone starts moaning he is a University lecturer for electronics, fancies getting his hands dirty and doing house bashing for whatever reason, his choice.

 

[Knobhead]

thats the way my firm works, they expet me to start showing someone new the ropes quite soon.

i have been with then under 3 years lol i dont have as broad experience as id like to show someone what to do

Everywhere I’ve worked had in the contract of employment “you are required to pass on your skills and knowledge to fellow workers”.*

I’m not saying it worked all the time as to be honest some just weren’t willing to learn. But you have to try.

You’ll find out what I said is true once the questions start.

I wish you the very best of luck.

* This was a strange one if I left a company I’ve always had to sign a confidentially agreement. I’d usually go in to a similar industry and………….
Confidentiality and passing on knowledge just aren’t compatible when you join a company that was your major competitor. The moral rock and obligation hard place.

 

[trev]

Thanks trev for takin t' bait on that one. I forget which party it was that tried to open up university access to all and then which party took up the 'idea' of the apprenticeship and turned it into the 'apprenticeship' for all and a parody of what an apprenticeship used to be. Both initiatives, in my view, have not served the UK well!

I completely agree that it was the labour party which opened up university places for all and that it was a stupid idea. The labour party have not been a socialist organisation for many years imo.

 

[andyelectric]

The big push to get kids into uni was to cut youth unemployment figures, nothing more. The amount of graduates working in crap jobs is huge. Some of the courses are absolute pish. And now they expect 9 grand for it. Employment as a whole in this country is getting worse. Recent unemployment lowering is simply people taking part time work and being forced into self employment. God knows how people survive on a zero hours contract.

 

[Engineer54]

I thought GCE was A-level? At least that's what it says on my A-level certificates.

GCE stands for General Certificate of Education and came in ''O'' Ordinary and ''A'' Advanced .
They were the mainstay of the UK's schools Secondary education ('O and 'A' stream education) from time immemorial, until they changed the goal posts. No idea if these certificates are still available or not. They did exist side by side for a while, the Grammar schools hanging on to them, and the old Technical schools offering alternative streams... Now who knows, i have seen advertisements in Cyprus for the British school, stating GCE qualifications, so maybe they are still in existence....

 

[andyelectric]

GCE stands for General Certificate of Education and came in ''O'' Ordinary and ''A'' Advanced .
They were the mainstay of the UK's schools Secondary education ('O and 'A' stream education) from time immemorial, until they changed the goal posts. No idea if these certificates are still available or not. They did exist side by side for a while, the Grammar schools hanging on to them, and the old Technical schools offering alternative streams... Now who knows, i have seen advertisements in Cyprus for the British school, stating GCE qualifications, so maybe they are still in existence....

You are slightly wrong E54 in that you are mixing up the UK and England.

Scotland has always had a seperate system. Wales I expect falls in with England, not sure sbout NI.

 

[shanky887614]

GCE stands for General Certificate of Education and came in ''O'' Ordinary and ''A'' Advanced .
They were the mainstay of the UK's schools Secondary education ('O and 'A' stream education) from time immemorial, until they changed the goal posts. No idea if these certificates are still available or not. They did exist side by side for a while, the Grammar schools hanging on to them, and the old Technical schools offering alternative streams... Now who knows, i have seen advertisements in Cyprus for the British school, stating GCE qualifications, so maybe they are still in existence....

when i did mine a couple years ago they call them

GCSE now but A levels are still A levels

 

[Knobhead]

General Certificate of Secondary Education. One step down from GCE but a Gr1 = GCE O level