This is precisely what happens. A large percentage of our newer customers are foreigners who are perplexed that they cannot use their hairdryer in the bathroom. They have spent a lifetime doing it safely in their own countries. Their next step is to buy an extension lead and plug it into the hallsocket.
All discussions in this thread up to now have been for conventional bathrooms.
What's the take on cases where a shower or bath is open to a bedroom, with no intervening door? This could be the set up where you have a walk in/walk out shower room, immediately behind a wall at the head of the bed, cases where there's a shower cubicle actually in a bedroom, or the fashion for having a bath near a bed (Escape to the Chateau style)
What's the take on cases where a shower or bath is open to a bedroom, with no intervening door? This could be the set up where you have a walk in/walk out shower room, immediately behind a wall at the head of the bed, cases where there's a shower cubicle actually in a bedroom, or the fashion for having a bath near a bed (Escape to the Chateau style)
Same rules apply in that sockets should be adequately separated from any wet areas.
The majority of bathrooms I know are such that any socket position would allow a 1-2m lead to be taken in to the bath. Having seen several reports of folk killed that way from dodgy chargers and using their iphone/tablet in the bath it is not something I would be happy to consider.
So faced with that sort of situation I would have any sockets at least 2m from the bath/shower, even if that seems excessive to some. (Edit: should be 3m - I should have look it up before replying)
There may not be a 3m from the shower, as was the case with one I was involved in, where there was a shower recessed half way along a bedroom wall.
Correct. Still the reality in the British is that the conventional rocker switch poses a danger. Not quite sure about the basis for that conclusion. Most other countries don't seem to experience it.Interestingly we don, t give a second thought to operating a 230 shower push switch with water swirling down around our feet but operating a rocker switch while standing on a dry bathroom floor fills us with dread for some reason. Of course, regarding the shower you might say "manufacturers instructions" allow it. True. But next time you take apart a shower unit observe the level of"sophistication" in the shower push switch. Educational
L
loz2754
The regulations apply to a ROOM CONTAINING a bath or a shower. That's my take.
So who's going to tell the customer that they can't have any sockets in their bedroom?
Room is 3.8m x 2.7m (=10m2, so quite big enough to be a double bedroom), with the 1200 x 760 shower recessed into the middle of a 3.6m wall, alongside a built in wardrobe from the shower side wall to the corner of the room. Only furniture is a double bed, with its head against the wall opposite the shower, and a dressing table on the end wall, so not at all cramped.
No point in that room is more than 3m from one side or other of the shower doors, except for one opposite corner, which is marginally more, but unfortunately is where the room door is.
No point in that room is more than 3m from one side or other of the shower doors, except for one opposite corner, which is marginally more, but unfortunately is where the room door is.
Well they are stuffed really!
Option 1 is to fit sockets not in compliance with section 701.512.3 (which is notifiable work), and in doing so be up before the beak if anything goes wrong. I can't see any professional electrician doing that.
Option 2 is to have the shower area boxed in so it forms a separate room. Then the only electrical restrictions would apply to any additional light needed for it (unless "window" in to the bedroom). I have no idea what would constitute a valid "room separator" in the eyes of building control so really who tackles this would need to get advice for that.
This aspect is unfortunately a very real aspect of the regulations (to "take in to account" those instruction) and if not doing so you open yourself to the liability of ensuring system safety.
Another example, and directly related to this discussion, is the provision of a USB charging socket in a bathroom. Great! We hear the crowds jubilant cheers as what they really want to do in the bath is phone or browse "speciality videos" on their tablets, etc.
Ah, but safety - the USB is low voltage (5V) so not an issue, but can you find a charger unit that meets the SELV requirements for special location use? Yes, indeed we can, and this is one such module:
Now neglecting the whole safety issue of eBay crap that is not safe by other, we seem to have found a solution from a reputable company. But then you read the instructions and it says "Suitable for fixed installations in dry interior locations only".
So no, we don't have an answer. Now the issue here is not that the module might have a short life due to moisture condensing in it, but the far more serious aspect that it may not be able to meet the insulation creepage/clearance under 100% humidity, etc. Maybe it does, I don't know. So I could not defend installing it in a bathroom just in case.
The bedroom I described above is not a hypothetical case, it's a room in a barn conversion that I wired in the not too distant past, and the solution I adopted was 'option 2' (sort of), convincing myself that the shower doors constituted room doors. No sockets were fitted on the wall with the shower, or on that wall side of the walls joining the shower wall, so all over 2.7m away, but none quite 3.
Coincidently, this was the one job (plus the other barn on site) that I had to bring in someone to 'sign off', as a result of a state of the all out war between building control and my client meant that they wouldn't accept my fifty years of experience and previous self certification just to be bloody minded.
Places were signed off by the boss of a firm of local electrical contractors without any mention of this bedroom, although he did get arsy about a 4G light switch in a bathroom in the other barn, even though it was well outside the zones.
Coincidently, this was the one job (plus the other barn on site) that I had to bring in someone to 'sign off', as a result of a state of the all out war between building control and my client meant that they wouldn't accept my fifty years of experience and previous self certification just to be bloody minded.
Places were signed off by the boss of a firm of local electrical contractors without any mention of this bedroom, although he did get arsy about a 4G light switch in a bathroom in the other barn, even though it was well outside the zones.
I was, nt intending to suggest ignoring "manufacturers instructions". It was more to suggest that the manufacturers own standards are not always the "gold standard".
When sockets were permitted to be installed in bathrooms for the first time,it was a seismic shift in our electrical culture. It was a line that no-one expected to be crossed. Now that its happened I expect to see the distances you are allowed to install them to shift closer to what you see in other countries, but gradually over time
2m would be fine. It's the extra metre that makes it difficult to comply, and is frankly ridiculous!
There is no rationale for the 3 meter rule.Its an arbitrary distance that I believe (open to correction here) will be found nowhere else except in a British or Irish bathroom. Personally I believe its because the message of "no sockets in bathrooms" went from good guidance to religious status over many decades and we, ve boxed ourselves in to a corner.The backtracking to more sensible distances will need to be done in a manner that reflects that.
I suspect it comes from typical lamp/heater/hair-dryer cable length and how far one might reach while just within a bath.
But I agree it is a bit far considering now such sockets would at least have to have RCD protection (as for outdoor locations).
Double insulation means it is safe for normal use. It's not a magic bullet, and doesn't mean a device is suitable for damp locations.
Mains powered electric drills have been double insulated for decades, but they shouldn't necessarily be used when it's raining.
Double insulation is not a substitute for a suitable IP rating.
If you want to stand in the rain with a drill then feel free. I'll stick with a battery one.
701:555.05. "where a prefabricated shower cabinet is installed in a room other than a bath or shower room, any wall switch and any socket outlet shall be at a distance of at least 0.6 mts from the door opening of the shower or cabinet"
This reg is almost certainly "copied and pasted" from the UK. Its intention was to facilitate the likes of budget hotels that don't have the space to conform to the regs. It allows contractors dealing with unconventional domestic installs to assist customers with creative solutions.
You are correct. The situation you describe is perfectly safe........ in America (Europe, Aus., etc) The issue with this scenario in the UK appears to be largely cultural, not electrical. On a previous post on the same subject the general feeling of electricians on the forum was one of not having confidence that the general public would adhere to safety guidelines regarding use of sockets in bathrooms.
N
nicebutdim
Don't underestimate people's capacity for stupidity in the UK.
Google will return plenty of news stories about people in the UK, who managed to electrocute themselves in the bath. Maybe better education would prevent this, but it's fairly common knowledge that using mains powered electrical items in the bath is a very bad idea.
I agree. I,m also a little perplexed as the UK generally tends towards good order and pragmatism
That being the case, my real concern would not be the bathroom but rather the hot tub. While a shower is a hygienic occasion the hot tub is a social one, often involving alcohol. If a culture of safety can't be achieved in the bathroom it could well be a major issue in the hot tub down the road
The problem is society is not uniform in attitudes, education, and beliefs. While the UK is reasonably safety conscious in many ways, for example one of the lowest road death rates in Europe, we also have quite a capacity for stupidity as well.
All regulations are a trade off between convenience, cost, and safety. I guess the IET/BSI have generally taken the view that they ought to set standards for electrical safety that are designed to reduce the impact of the more Darwin-inclined members of society.
Some things like hair-dryers are often seen in hotels, but hard-wired in to FCU and not within reach of bath/shower. Having sockets is more of an open-season on more survival-challenged members of our nation.
In the UK regs., 15th edition (1981) states NO sockets in bath/shower rooms, but does refer to rooms other than a bathroom, where it says 2.5m min.
16th edition (Amendment 3, 2000, I think) introduces the zone concept for bathrooms, saying no sockets in zones 1,2 and 3, which add up to 3m, so sockets now allowed as long as 3m+ away.
There's a reference to other rooms, but it's still 3m+, and sockets over that distance must be RCD protected.
17th edition (2008); zone 3 has gone, but it still says 3m+ for a room with a bath or shower, with no reference to other rooms at all that I know of, so still 3m+
The advance of time spared me the 18th in detail, but AFAIK, there's no change.
This subject appeared in another thread a bit back about needing a socket in a bathroom for a helper to a disabled person. Some discussion went around the idea of using an IP65 rated socket (as allowed outside in the rain) just out of zone 1, etc, but nothing really satisfactory was reached.
In that case probably a written risk-assessment and justification would be the installers get-out: where the disabled person's need for the power-assisted help and the professional nature and understanding of those involved would be adequate justification for departing from the regs.
But for many it would be far better if certain exemptions and/or guidance was available to deal with the risk of doing so.
In that case probably a written risk-assessment and justification would be the installers get-out: where the disabled person's need for the power-assisted help and the professional nature and understanding of those involved would be adequate justification for departing from the regs.
But for many it would be far better if certain exemptions and/or guidance was available to deal with the risk of doing so.
Out of curiosity. 20,000 ohms in what scenario.? Would that be for instance a meter of 20mm plastic pipe full of rainwater, measured end to end?
I think it's that rainwater has a resistivity of 20k ohm cm. (figures vary!)
formula on the web!
I make it about 32 Megohms for the metre of plastic pipe, but no doubt I've made an error there somewhere!
www.teachoo.com
formula on the web!
I make it about 32 Megohms for the metre of plastic pipe, but no doubt I've made an error there somewhere!
Electrical Resistivity - Definition, SI Unit - Teachoo - Concepts
Resistivity is the characteristic property of the material by which it resists the amount of current through it.What is the SI Unit of resistivity?SI Unit of resistivity is ohm meter.Explanation.We know that,R = ρ (l/A)Therefore,ρ = R (A/l)= ohm × m2/m= ohm × mTherefore, unit of rho is ohm meter.Not
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