What are your thoughts on people wanting to be ultra neat when wiring inside boards?

[rewireIT]

I get wanting to do a good job but does being super neat inside a board really make it a better job?

I don't see any advantage to it aside from aesthetics and if it's something that's not seen then....what's the point in obsessing over how neat it all looks?

To me it's a bit like a kitchen fitter making sure all the feet on his cabinets point the same way even though plinth is going on and covering them all up.

What do you's reckon?

 

[nicebutdim]

The most obvious reason is that it aides future works if each conductor in a circuit is readily identifiable, but there's a vast difference between taking pride in turning out neat work and obsessing over millimetre perfect placement of conductors.

Next would be the ease with which additions can be made - much easier to dress more circuits in a neat board, than negotiating your way through a birds nest.

I don't think the kitchen fitter analogy fits - that's more in line with ensuring plate screws are all oriented the same way, which, ironically, is much more common than fastidiously neat boards.

 

[xylophone]

It’s all ended up being a bit of a YouTube beauty contest to some extent

IMO the most important thing is that it’s easy to maintain for the next person… enough slack, tidy correctly ordered conductors etc. this does mean neat, not a rats nest but probably doesn’t have to be quite as “beautiful” as some YouTube examples.

 

[SparkySy]

So would you be happy to test this rats nest that was done a couple of months ago?
And has some obvious faults without looking properly, the original installer wouldn't sign it off and then wouldn't answer the customer's emails calls or texts, mm wonder why!

I was going to attach a picture of one I did a week or so ago for a comparison but it will not have it!

Personally I will always do a neat job of everything I do, it's why I get so much repeat business.
Take pride in your work, do it once and do it properly!
Sy

 

[James]

View attachment 109245
So would you be happy to test this rats nest that was done a couple of months ago?
And has some obvious faults without looking properly, the original installer wouldn't sign it off and then wouldn't answer the customer's emails calls or texts, mm wonder why!

I was going to attach a picture of one I did a week or so ago for a comparison but it will not have it!

Personally I will always do a neat job of everything I do, it's why I get so much repeat business.
Take pride in your work, do it once and do it properly!
Sy

Apart from some of the copper conductors being proud of the breakers, there is nothing “wrong” with it.
I agree that it could and probably should be neater but would it make it any safer?

part of me is playing the devils advocate
part of me is thinking conductors in the right holes, screws done up correctly, testing and certification in place, what’s the problem?

 

[freddo]

Why does it say network ---- on that cable?

 

[SparkySy]

@James
Neatness wouldn't make it any safer, but.
Hidden in there are some 1.0mm cables protected by 20mcb's and some 2.5mm radial circuits on 32a mcb's.
As well as cables left to fit and not enough spare ways for them.
There are also lighting circuits in with socket circuits it's a bit of a mess, there is also the RCD's maximum allowed leakage to consider, that's a lot of lights and sockets to hang off two RCD's.
And none of it is labeled properly.
I couldn't leave a job I'd done looking like that and walk away a happy contractor!

@freddo
I have no idea why it says that!

 

[nicebutdim]

Why does it say network ---- on that cable?

...rack

 

[rewireIT]

@James
Neatness wouldn't make it any safer, but.
Hidden in there are some 1.0mm cables protected by 20mcb's and some 2.5mm radial circuits on 32a mcb's.
As well as cables left to fit and not enough spare ways for them.
There are also lighting circuits in with socket circuits it's a bit of a mess, there is also the RCD's maximum allowed leakage to consider, that's a lot of lights and sockets to hang off two RCD's.
And none of it is labeled properly.
I couldn't leave a job I'd done looking like that and walk away a happy contractor!

@freddo
I have no idea why it says that!

Hmm i take all your points and you are right but...does any of that actually get impacted by the wiring not being nice to look at?

 

[nicebutdim]

Hmm i take all your points and you are right but...does any of that actually get impacted by the wiring not being nice to look at?

Any thoughts on other points raised in this thread, a number of which are very pertinent to the issue of neatness?

 

[James]

If their are faults with the wiring or speciation of the wiring, they should be picked up when inspected.
a neat job is not always a good job
also,
a good job is not always a neat job.

 

[marconi]

Neatness and logical routing of conductors can help their identification and tracing and thus purpose which in turn may reduce errors at the time of wiring and later when say inspecting and testing. Neatness also suggests care and pride in a job well done and not rushed to complete.

 

[Dustydazzler]

For me I have always viewed doing a consumer unit as the one chance to really show your skills at doing a neat tidy job.
It doesn't have to be perfect but cores cut to a nice length and dressed in neatly , the correct sized sleeving used , tails neatly dressed in etc all make it easier for the next person to work on the board and hopefully keep it neat.
If you start with a rats nest and people add to the rats nests you just end up with a bigger rats nest and eventually your work ends up on here being called a complete rats nest

 

[Vortigern]

I find that RCBO present a problem in being neat due to the connection to the N bus-bar. While not OCD I do like to make sure that visually the cabling in a consumer unit is presented in a way that is crystal clear to anyone following and doing additions or alterations. Being orderly and careful, matching terminal numbers on each circuit et. allows checking on your own work being made much easier. Besides which when EICR comes around and seeing a well wired box inspires (potentially!) the feeling that the installation has been in the hands of someone competent.
Then there is the element of taking a pride in your work, which I think the devil is in the detail. When initially starting out wiring fifty years ago the only test we used to do is megger the installation. Don't tell anyone, we also used to use an incandescent element lamp to test earth by placing L + N then L + E, if the bulb was brighter with the L + E, jobs a goodun! Sorry but that was how it was that long ago. The point being, with such poor testing compared to todays requirements, there was a stong emphasis on terminating and neatnes and being sure that your installation techniques were very studiously executed to obviate a poor megger reading, or any other problems associated with poor connections.

 

[cliffed]

View attachment 109245
So would you be happy to test this rats nest that was done a couple of months ago?
And has some obvious faults without looking properly, the original installer wouldn't sign it off and then wouldn't answer the customer's emails calls or texts, mm wonder why!

I was going to attach a picture of one I did a week or so ago for a comparison but it will not have it!

Personally I will always do a neat job of everything I do, it's why I get so much repeat business.
Take pride in your work, do it once and do it properly!
Sy

To be fair that DB/CU looks tight as hell

 

[7029 dave]

Neatness shows pride and good workmanship in your work. Fault finding a rats nest is a pain in the arse especially on RFC okay the lives are easy but trying to find the legs on N and E when you cant even see the buts of the cable and nothing follows consiquecaly

 

[SparkySy]

To be fair that DB/CU looks tight as hell

It was very tight and too small! I have quoted to go back and rip it out put a bigger all RCBO board in!

 

[ipf]

They should make 'untidy' a C2.....that'd teach 'em.

Takes me back to wiping a perfectly good armoured, lead multicore as an apprentice and being patted on the head and told to do it again.

 

[rewireIT]

Neatness shows pride and good workmanship in your work. Fault finding a rats nest is a pain in the arse especially on RFC okay the lives are easy but trying to find the legs on N and E when you cant even see the buts of the cable and nothing follows consiquecaly

I'm on about being ultra neat though - is there any real difference between 'generally pretty tidy' and 'every single wire is the exact same length and curvature into the termination, i've cable tied all the earths and neutrals together (a hindrance imo)' ?

Is one 'better' than the other? Because i see people slagging work that is completely fine it just doesn't look as pretty.

 

[ferg]

Think how you feel when you take the cover off a board and it's lovely and neat inside.
Compare that to how you feel when it's a rats nest.

I don't really have the time, inclination or ability to make every board look like it belongs on Instagram but I like to think I make a bit of an effort.

I think as long as it's neat and tidy and I've done the best with what I have then it's good enough.

Like it or not the next person in the board will judge your ability based on what they see.

 

[SparkySy]

Agree with @ferg not all mine are Instagram perfect but you will be able to see which neutral and earth are the ones for each circuit and will have plenty space for testing and additional cables/circuits!
And yes the next bloke who looks in there will judge just as we all do!

 

[nicebutdim]

I'm on about being ultra neat though - is there any real difference between 'generally pretty tidy' and 'every single wire is the exact same length and curvature into the termination, i've cable tied all the earths and neutrals together (a hindrance imo)' ?

Is one 'better' than the other? Because i see people slagging work that is completely fine it just doesn't look as pretty.

If you're spending time on instagram, chances are most comments will be from people viewing the installation from an entirely aesthetic perspective and many will have no idea what the pretty colours do. Instagram isn't real life and from the little I know about it, the place doesn't even approach real life.

I've never seen anyone cable tie earths together (why would they?) and the only cable tying of neutrals I've seen has been RCBO flyleads which none of us really know how to dress neatly, while maintaining ease of access and identification. The options with neutral flyleads are stark: cable tie, cut short and potentially unable to be moved or do the best you can. If people care for adulation on social media, chances are they're going to make less than pragmatic choices.

This place isn't instagram and, thankfully, represents a wide range of opinions.

 

[nicebutdim]

I do occasioinally see earths and neutrals cable tied in 3 phase boards and that doesn't present any real hindrance - plenty of space to snip them and plenty of space to add or remove cables. What I do hate is people who don't loom incoming circuits when wired in PVC singles - nothing worse than removing a circuit and not being 100% certain the correct earth & neutral are being removed, especially after tracing back some distance through trunking. That sort of laziness is unacceptable, when huge sums of money are involved if the wrong conductor is removed. Perhaps if the people who do this found themselves in the shoes of those who follow behind, they'd be inclined to amend their work ethic - especially when alternative means of verification are nigh on impossible.

 

[rewireIT]

Like it or not the next person in the board will judge your ability based on what they see.

Why does that matter? Every tradesman ever calls the work of others rough even when it's not.

And again let's keep in mind i'm not saying there's neat then there's rats nest, i'm talking about what's wrong with it being in between - everything identifiable and done correctly but not necessarily good to look at.

 

[rewireIT]

I do occasioinally see earths and neutrals cable tied in 3 phase boards and that doesn't present any real hindrance - plenty of space to snip them and plenty of space to add or remove cables. What I do hate is people who don't loom incoming circuits when wired in PVC singles - nothing worse than removing a circuit and not being 100% certain the correct earth & neutral are being removed, especially after tracing back some distance through trunking. That sort of laziness is unacceptable, when huge sums of money are involved if the wrong conductor is removed. Perhaps if the people who do this found themselves in the shoes of those who follow behind, they'd be inclined to amend their work ethic - especially when alternative means of verification are nigh on impossible.

What do you mean by loom?

 

[nicebutdim]

What do you mean by loom?

In the context of my post about wiring I'd honestly thought this would be quite apparent.

Individual conductors in each circuit grouped together for ease of identification. Often this is in the form of simple, but effective taping at regular intervals - perhaps every metre or so. Even 2"x2" trunking can be difficult to trace cables in and you don't want to think about tracing a circuit in large, busy trunking if it isn't easy to follow.

Little things can make a huge difference to people who follow behind. It is for this reason that many posts in this thread are less than forgiving of untidy work. There's a level of attention to detail that goes beyond what is necessary, but I'm firmly of the belief that taking pride in turning out fairly neat work is important in this industry.

I'd recommend looking at section 514 of BS7671 - specifically 514.1.2 Not only should we take care to ensure our work can easily be followed by other electricians, we're bound to do so by regulation.

 

[rewireIT]

In the context of my post about wiring I'd honestly thought this would be quite apparent.

Individual conductors in each circuit grouped together for ease of identification. Often this is in the form of simple, but effective taping at regular intervals - perhaps every metre or so. Even 2"x2" trunking can be difficult to trace cables in and you don't want to think about tracing a circuit in large, busy trunking if it isn't easy to follow.

Little things can make a huge difference to people who follow behind. It is for this reason that many posts in this thread are less than forgiving of untidy work. There's a level of attention to detail that goes beyond what is necessary, but I'm firmly of the belief that taking pride in turning out fairly neat work is important in this industry.

I'd recommend looking at section 514 of BS7671 - specifically 514.1.2 Not only should we take care to ensure our work can easily be followed by other electricians, we're bound to do so by regulation.

Ah right just never heard it called loom.

So you're talking about physically taping them together?

 

[nicebutdim]

So you're talking about physically taping them together?

That's precisely what I stated.

 

[rewireIT]

So what i'm talking about is, is one of these 'better' than the other because one looks much neater?

Does straightening all the conductors and perfectly folding them in mean you've got more pride in your work or that it's a better install?

I think the RCBO board is waaaay overkill in how it's been made to look considering it spends its life unseen. It's also weird that someone would go to that trouble of being that neat but then use the wrong size sleeving.

 

[rewireIT]

That's precisely what I stated.

Alright calm down

 

[nicebutdim]

I've covered the issue of fastidious neatness in post #2 and have repeated similar sentiments since. I'm not sure how much more clearly my position could be stated.

Is there anything in particular from my posts which you'd like me to clarify in greater detail?

Alright calm down

Sorry if this appeared brusque - it was intended to simply affirm your assertion.

 

[ipf]

In most cases, I've no time for cable ties in boards, especially CU's, a real pain for future or testing. Even if they're tied, how do you know they're correct?

 

[rewireIT]

In most cases, I've no time for cable ties in boards, especially CU's, a real pain for future or testing. Even if they're tied, how do you know they're correct?

Completely agree, to test you're likely gonna have to snip the ties anyway, complete waste of time

 

[davesparks]

I'm on about being ultra neat though - is there any real difference between 'generally pretty tidy' and 'every single wire is the exact same length and curvature into the termination,

That is unnecessary and I wouldn't judge an installation like that as being better than one that is just a normal level of neat and tidy.
And I think there is a danger of trying to be too neat and placing form over function, thinking too much about making it look pretty than how easy it will be to work on in the future.

i've cable tied all the earths and neutrals together (a hindrance imo)' ?

That is bad practice in my opinion, it gives no room at all for any heat dissipation from the conductors and will increase the effects of grouping.

Because i see people slagging work that is completely fine it just doesn't look as pretty.

There will always be those people in the world sadly, they make up for their own inadequacy by slating the wokr of others. With some people it's just a bad case of 'little man syndrome', everything in life is just a p*ssing contest for them.