What percentage of Sparks voted Brexit?

[Midwest]

Absolutely 100% agree. It's pathetic and unfortunately our educational system is churning out indoctrinated leftist sheep at a surprising rate.

I can't agree with you there.

I've, well 'we've' turned out two young men. I have probably got such 'leftie' views as you've mentioned, even though I'm a right winger

I think most parents would kinda indoctrinate their views on their children, but I would say they are right out on there on the right or a bit lefter, not biased by my views or that of any schooling etc.

Think you've been reading too many stories from the media, that do not reflect the views of the masses.

 

[buzzlightyear]

I wonder if oliver cromwell turning in his grave when we gave our laws to the T@@Ts in Brussels. Lol , just thinking about the song bye bye baby by by .by the the bay city rollers .

 

[SparkyChick]

Most of the posts on this thread come from the right, but I've not seen any from the left on here that try to stop the debate by doing what you say.

Firstly... no, you've not seen any one trying to stop debate in this thread because most people on here are adult enough to have a conversation. They are capable of listening to other peoples opinions.

Secondly... the right. You've assumed I'm on the right. Next stop, ----, calling at alt-right and far-right!

If anything it's the right who try to detract from the argument with stupid childish insults.

Really???

Better to be called a whiny leftist sheep than be branded a racist, sexist or anti-semite for example. Being known as a leftist sheep isn't going to ruin your life but being branded the later has a proven detrimental effect.

Just out of interest, would being able to justify my choice of words elevate them from 'stupid childish insult' to 'opinion'?

The list is a lot longer than that SC, I find it sad that you can feel no pride in these achievements and what Britian has done. I know I do, but then I do come from the left.

You're putting words in my mouth... did I say I have no pride in our country? Quite the opposite. And the list is hardly exhaustive it's just a few, in my opinion, well chosen examples that have had a major positive global impact.

So no examples then?

They are examples of the tactics used by the left to silence those they disagree with.

If you want a real world example, I nearly lost my career because I was branded a racist by my boss (herself a minority - the L of LGBT - who's personal mission was to address the inequality in the company I was working for at the time) because I highlighted how an individual she insisted on interviewing had links (as in he held some fairly senior positions) to an organisation that had since been banned by the government for it's connections to terrorism and another that was under investigation for financial irregularities (read fraud) to the tune of £250,000 of government money. Shortly thereafter I was also accused of physically assaulting her.

I can't agree with you there.

And that's fine. Because what I wrote was my opinion. Do I think everyone who goes into university will end up an indoctrinated whiny leftist sheep? No. But there is a significant number who do who go on to form the small vocal minority that are driving the politically correct agenda.

An agenda that is slowly but surely curtailing our ability to have discussions about things we really do need to discuss as a nation.

Think you've been reading too many stories from the media, that do not reflect the views of the masses.

I don't pay any attention to the mainstream media because I'm sick and tired of hearing about gender inequality, the promotion of things like non-binary genders and their complete and utter lack of reporting on some truly horrifying stories of events from around Europe and the wider world.

 

[johnduffell]

If you want to get anywhere together, first you have to work out what you have in common, then build on that too over come differences.
I think perhaps the two groups, however you want to characterise them agree that the world is full of good people trying to do their best in the world.
Where i think things diverge, is where people are unable to have the life they want due to factors beyond their control.
People who benefit from diversity etc are obviously more likely to support that, but people who are harmed by it are not going to be inclined to support it.
I don't want to say too much in case i distract from my point, but I'm basically saying we are mostly good people just trying to get along.
The rest, unfortunately ended up in charge of the world's biggest countries and economies, i can't see any normal well adjusted person going for that job!

 

[andyb]

Firstly... no, you've not seen any one trying to stop debate in this thread because most people on here are adult enough to have a conversation. They are capable of listening to other peoples opinions.

I said no one from the left, plenty of childish insults from the right.

Secondly... the right. You've assumed I'm on the right. Next stop, ----, calling at alt-right and far-right!

You and JK brought the word ---- in this thread SC

Really???

Better to be called a whiny leftist sheep than be branded a racist, sexist or anti-semite for example. Being known as a leftist sheep isn't going to ruin your life but being branded the later has a proven detrimental effect.

I don't mind being called a whiny leftist sheep SC, who called who a racist, sexist or anti-semite?

Just out of interest, would being able to justify my choice of words elevate them from 'stupid childish insult' to 'opinion'?

No, whiny leftist sheep is a silly childish insult, that's all.
Not to say you dont have an opinion.

You're putting words in my mouth... did I say I have no pride in our country? Quite the opposite. And the list is hardly exhaustive it's just a few, in my opinion, well chosen examples that have had a major positive global impact.

Er

If wanting our country to have pride in itself again and be proud of the global contributions we've made

You certainly intimated that you can't have pride in your country untill we leave the EU.

 

[GBDamo]

“If you’re not left wing as a youth you have no heart, if you’re still left wing as an adult you have no brain”

There are hundreds of variants of this unattributed quote and of course it is a sweeping generalisation.

... so try not to worry too much about the snowflakes as most of them will grow out of it. Those that don’t work for the BBC, those that are too snowflakey for the BBC work for Channel 4 News.

 

[GBDamo]

You're wrong there GB, they will still blame anyone or thing than blame themselves.
When we have a hard brexit, which is looking like the only outcome now after Chequers, and the country suffers as, it will, it will be the EU's fault, the remainers fault, foreigners fault, everyone but theirs.

Blame is not the best word.

I prefer Obfuscation , squid inking, smoke screening.

It’s our governments way of enacting law they know to be unpopular under the guise of the “big boy made me do it”

 

[JK-Electrical]

Absolutely 100% agree. It's pathetic and unfortunately our educational system is churning out indoctrinated leftist sheep at a surprising rate.

Universities, colleges and schools should be filled with ideas and discourse that challenge those involved to think about things, including things they don't want to think about. Instead they are filled with safe spaces and trigger warnings.

As for gender vs. sex.... sex is a biological fact, gender is a social construct and can it seems be varied based on feelings. Unfortunately facts beat feelings everytime.

The left talk about individuals but actually what they are doing is collecting people into groups based on arbitrary facets of their biology/character in order to allow them to gain victim status and thus gain the upper hand on 'normal' people.

The piece linked to below is wordy, but is demonstrative of just how out of control cultural Marxism and political-correctness has become across the pond. It also demonstrates the level of indoctrination that is taking place. Unfortunately, this sorry state of affairs is pretty much the same over here too.

Pamphlet: Leftist Indoctrination in Our K-12 Public Schools - https://stopk12indoctrination.org/2018/03/30/stop-indoctrinating-our-children

I wholly reject cultural Marxism along with all forms of political-correctness. I do not consent. I will not comply.

 

[Des 56]

You don't have to be on the right or on the left to have voted out

You just needed to have no regard for the younger generation

Its they who will reap the dividend of joblessness,travel restriction and poverty that the mainly older generation inflicted on them( perhaps for many years) until we come to our senses and return to the fold with our tails deservedly dangling between our legs

Anyone over 45 should never have been permitted to vote and those who did and voted out should be utterly ashamed of their actions

I voted remain

 

[SparkyChick]

I said no one from the left, plenty of childish insults from the right.

Hardly plenty, but hey... who's counting right

I don't mind being called a whiny leftist sheep SC, who called who a racist, sexist or anti-semite?

This is a straw man. I've not claimed anyone on here has called me any of those things. What I've said is that those labels are used by the left to brand what someone says as hate speech. I used the example of criticising a particular religion... do that and there is a good chance someone on the left will call you a racist.

I went on to point out that those labels can destroy careers and ruin lives... again, a tactic of the left to intimidate those they disagree with into silence.

Er

You certainly intimated that you can't have pride in your country untill we leave the EU.

What I said is I would like to see our country have a sense of pride again, that's all. If you look back over the thread I have elaborated my views on this in another post. #89 I believe.

 

[plugsandsparks]

You don't have to be on the right or on the left to have voted out

You just needed to have no regard for the younger generation

Its they who will reap the dividend of joblessness,travel restriction and poverty that the mainly older generation inflicted on them( perhaps for many years) until we come to our senses and return to the fold with our tails deservedly dangling between our legs

Anyone over 45 should never have been permitted to vote and those who did and voted out should be utterly ashamed of their actions

I voted remain

Do you know the % of unemployed across the EU of under 25 year olds? - Its a disgrace. Have a look, then ask why are there so many, well its not rocket science, one currency across 27 countries is a disaster, except for Germany who actually benefit.
Its totally broken, the young are screwed and its going to last all their lifetime, sad but true. If you really want i can help with the academic backup but, really, its pretty obvious , whats going on

 

[stuarth]

You don't have to be on the right or on the left to have voted out

You just needed to have no regard for the younger generation

Its they who will reap the dividend of joblessness,travel restriction and poverty that the mainly older generation inflicted on them( perhaps for many years) until we come to our senses and return to the fold with our tails deservedly dangling between our legs

Anyone over 45 should never have been permitted to vote and those who did and voted out should be utterly ashamed of their actions

I voted remain

It's because of my children that I am a passionate leaver, I have seen how this country has been manipulated by Brussels and our own politicians into a almighty mess where people to not take responsibility for there own actions, but have to find a cause or somebody else to blame for their own mistakes and failures I voted leave in the knowledge that it would not be a easy journey but it would be worth while for my children long term future as a proud and productive country again.
@Des 56 I think you may have fallen victim to another round of project fear or you have not realised that 99% of project fears original predictions have failed to materialise and have been comprehensively disproved despite this they have repeatedly tried to scare us or label us as thick, stupid or we did not understand what we were voting for.
The statements of "tails between our legs" and anybody over "45 should not have been permitted to vote" shows a level of contempt for another persons point of view that is typical of a small but vocal minority of self satisfied bigots who think that their view is the only legitimate view allowed.

 

[Midwest]

I don't know or understand how any of you can foresee what our future holds after Brexit.

We have some of the most eminent politicians minds, financial institutions & social establishments at odds with each other, and can't agree as to how its going to pan out. Truth is, nobody knows.

Course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I'm not being swayed or convinced by the beliefs of a bunch of electricians, no offence.

So lets get on with it, leaving, so we can eventually find out.

Check this thread out in a few or many years

 

[Darkwood]

You don't have to be on the right or on the left to have voted out
I fully agree

You just needed to have no regard for the younger generation
Sorry but a very big claim to make and unsubstantiated one at that.

Its they who will reap the dividend of joblessness,travel restriction and poverty that the mainly older generation inflicted on them( perhaps for many years) until we come to our senses and return to the fold with our tails deservedly dangling between our legs
These again are claims which you have not backed up with anything more than your personal opinion.

Anyone over 45 should never have been permitted to vote and those who did and voted out should be utterly ashamed of their actions
The most discriminating remark and anti democratic one I have had the pleasure to read in a long time.

I voted remain

Don't get me wrong here Des, I fully respect everybody's vote including yours, we all have different lives, different backgrounds and different social environments all of which play key parts to each individual decision but here is my response to your post and the reasons why:-

You make a very wild claim about having to be somewhat ignorant of the younger generations and there future, sorry but this is straight out of the rhetoric heard on the grounds of a university, it has little substance to back it up especially given the fact the EU is heading for a superstate as admitted by the EU itself, it is giving us laws and that effect the very lives of you me and your children yet they cannot be held to account, cannot be voted out and are immune from legal intervention, so you want the people who control the lives of the younger generation to be fully unaccountable, non democratic and impossible to remove through the voting system?... I personally would like those powers back into our own government who are accountable, can be voted out and use a democratic system.

Joblessness, travel restrictions and poverty... other than been a predictor of the unknown here can you back up your claims? On poverty, it is in fact the extremely high tariffs imposed on us by the EU (average 21% on food) and high tariffs on footwear and clothing that hit the poorest the hardest, leaving the custom union would allow us to go elsewhere and if we wanted put 0% tariffs on trade with any other country in the world, this will have 2 main effects both very positive, 1- it will introduce competition to the high tariffs imposed on us by the EU in this so call free trade single market, economics at its most basic level would mean they would have to reduce their tariffs if they wanted to retain the massive trade deficit they enjoy from our trade. 2- it will increase quality of products, as it stands because the EU is a ringfenced protective trade body it has eliminated competition from external trade, this has led to decades of higher priced products and poorer quality as well as lower pay rates for mainly the poorer in society, introducing a competitive element to one of it biggest trade partners ie the UK will see them lose this trade or get their act together and offer a competitive good quality product.

At the end of the day politics does not decide who loses or wins here, the consumer does and if we leave fully from the Single Market and the Customs Union then that consumer choice will suddenly find a vast new playground of choice, if the EU do not react to this then they lose, either way the UK benefits as that's how trade works especially when we have a massive trade deficit with the EU, it would damage them 3fold on any punishing decisions they try to enact and log term it will drive our trade to other shores, they know this and are doing there damned to keep us in the customs union in some way or other, it is not the UK been arkward here, it is the EU, they have form and they are following a similar method to what they have in the past on trade talks... they will do a 11hr deal after exhausting all attempts to bring down brexit, this is backed up by decades of evidence to even though you can call it a prediction it is based on very hard evidence unlike ALL the scaremongering we see who tailor there surveys to give the result they need.

 

[Midwest]

How do you (Des 56 & darkwood) come to these Hypotheses. What academic background do you have?

 

[telectrix]

do not think acedemic background comes into the equation here. it's all a matter of not being ruled by unelected bureau rats . we are an independant soveriegn state, and as such, should remain so, our laws, our borders should be ours, not angie meerkat's, nor some faceless unelected brussels rat.

 

[Midwest]

I was referring more of how it will impact on us good or bad. None one knows, is my point. It might be the best thing we done since joining the EU

 

[Darkwood]

@Midwest, what hypotheses do you talk about, can you be more specific, I have followed EU politics for over 2 decades, I have a lot of knowledge of their methods and working, there goals and there means to achieve said goals, I also have 2 decades of historical data I can cite to back my views up.
Why may I ask is having an Academic degree a must to give an informed response, in fact there is quite a lot of debate regarding our universities and colleges been biased, there are positions funded by the EU for professors who advice students, teachers etc on EU related subjects, when asked if they are biased one came back with the answer, 'no we promote open debate but any criticism of the EU often triggers and instinct to defend it' - (straight from the horses mouth!) They call these Jean Monnet Chairs and these are used to influence the teaching system and that of our academics and by their own admittance they tend to protect the block from criticism, this is often carried forward by the students themselves who soak this up and they themselves start to defend the EU from criticism too, this can be seen on many pro EU marches where legitimate questions are asks that show problems with the EU model and the responses are not intellectual but usually accusations of been racist or bigoted etc while never addressing the points made.
Erasmus+ - Jean Monnet - Chair - EACEA - European Commission - https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/erasmus-plus/actions/jean-monnet/jean-monnet-chairs_en.... this is one of the reasons so many students are Pro EU and why jobs positions that can effect and influence our relations with the EU are heavily invested in by the EU, my conclusion is having an academic degree is more a negative to answer these questions with a neutral view.
I would take an informed non academics viewpoint ahead of an academic when it comes to the EU any day.

Yes my post is somewhat my viewpoint based on my understanding but I have made the point that I understand people can have different views for many reasons, all I ask is when making wild statements and views at least give some context like I attempted to do to show my reasoning, simply saying people over 45 were been ignorant to the youth and their future is discrimination at most or just a very ignorant view point hence I expressed why I thought it was ignorant.

 

[The Ghost]

I do not consent. I will not comply

That is lawful insurrection. I applaud.

 

[Des 56]

How do you (Des 56 & darkwood) come to these Hypotheses. What academic background do you have?

None,what I posted is what I truly "believe" is the absolute and certain reality of the stupid decision to leave the EU

Whether I have a foundation in the intricacies of nation trading or not is irrelevant (even renowned economists who have studied the subject to very high levels,they have no consensus on the best course of action on any economic questions never mind the unknowns of Brexit)

Let me give you a unfounded reason to back up that belief

Start with the countries who are desperate to join (leave aside Turkey who have been found to be not worthy of the privilege) Serbia,Montenegro,Bosnia these are just 3 of the countries waiting in eager anticipation of joining the EU

There are 28 in the EU,27 of them will remain in the block
These 27 recognise that the EU for all or any faults is by far the best way forward for their peoples

In a world where virtually every country of every continent is forming or has formed a trading block,one country has had its voting public brainwashed into thinking it can go it alone
UK or more precisely the English majority who decide the role of the whole of the UK



The people on one side believed in lies and fake facts ,the broken world wide immigration policy of firstly the Labour party,then the Conservative party,it opened doors to the world which t was not the responsibility of the EU


Rather than leave the EU,I personally would have much preferred to have seen the UK break apart
It would have let the English nationalism tread its own lonely path in the big wide world