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@Midwest, all I ask is when making wild statements and views at least give some context like I attempted to do to show my reasoning, simply saying people over 45 were been ignorant to the youth and their future is discrimination at most or just a very ignorant view point hence I expressed why I thought it was ignorant.

The vote to leave the EU is not a vote on the immediate problem of peoples fear of immigration,it is a vote that will have its most important results in decade or more in the future

Anyone over 45 will have probably 20 years of their working lives left to negotiate,the effects of leaving will probably be felt most keenly after those years

Its the younger generation who will bear the brunt of the collapse of UK trade
These 45+ voters who made the decision for the young will no doubt shout and scream when the country cannot easily carry them into old age
Trade poverty may eventually bite the arse of those selfish voters who had no right to do what they did
 
@Midwest, what hypotheses do you talk about, can you be more specific, I have followed EU politics for over 2 decades, I have a lot of knowledge of their methods and working, there goals and there means to achieve said goals, I also have 2 decades of historical data I can cite to back my views up.
Why may I ask is having an Academic degree a must to give an informed response, in fact there is quite a lot of debate regarding our universities and colleges been biased, there are positions funded by the EU for professors who advice students, teachers etc on EU related subjects, when asked if they are biased one came back with the answer, 'no we promote open debate but any criticism of the EU often triggers and instinct to defend it' - (straight from the horses mouth!) They call these Jean Monnet Chairs and these are used to influence the teaching system and that of our academics and by their own admittance they tend to protect the block from criticism, this is often carried forward by the students themselves who soak this up and they themselves start to defend the EU from criticism too, this can be seen on many pro EU marches where legitimate questions are asks that show problems with the EU model and the responses are not intellectual but usually accusations of been racist or bigoted etc while never addressing the points made.
Erasmus+ - Jean Monnet - Chair - EACEA - European Commission - https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/erasmus-plus/actions/jean-monnet/jean-monnet-chairs_en.... this is one of the reasons so many students are Pro EU and why jobs positions that can effect and influence our relations with the EU are heavily invested in by the EU, my conclusion is having an academic degree is more a negative to answer these questions with a neutral view.
I would take an informed non academics viewpoint ahead of an academic when it comes to the EU any day.

Yes my post is somewhat my viewpoint based on my understanding but I have made the point that I understand people can have different views for many reasons, all I ask is when making wild statements and views at least give some context like I attempted to do to show my reasoning, simply saying people over 45 were been ignorant to the youth and their future is discrimination at most or just a very ignorant view point hence I expressed why I thought it was ignorant.

You sound like my academic son, or perhaps like a politician. You lost me after your first paragraph, much like the rest of the leave or remain camps.

Honesty is sometimes difficult to acknowledge, especially to oneself. Both sides have had their arguments, but only the course of time will reveal the certainly.
 
I cant be arsed to read 10 pages, but I voted remain, seen the first few posts saying people voted leave and would do so again. But even now you dont know what your getting when we finally leave, surely things arent that bad that you just want to leave regardless of the deal offered?
 
None,what I posted is what I truly "believe" is the absolute and certain reality of the stupid decision to leave the EU

Whether I have a foundation in the intricacies of nation trading or not is irrelevant (even renowned economists who have studied the subject to very high levels,they have no consensus on the best course of action on any economic questions never mind the unknowns of Brexit)

Let me give you a unfounded reason to back up that belief

Start with the countries who are desperate to join (leave aside Turkey who have been found to be not worthy of the privilege) Serbia,Montenegro,Bosnia these are just 3 of the countries waiting in eager anticipation of joining the EU:clapping:

There are 28 in the EU,27 of them will remain in the block
These 27 recognise that the EU for all or any faults is by far the best way forward for their peoples

In a world where virtually every country of every continent is forming or has formed a trading block,one country has had its voting public brainwashed into thinking it can go it alone
UK or more precisely the English majority who decide the role of the whole of the UK




The people on one side believed in lies and fake facts ,the broken world wide immigration policy of firstly the Labour party,then the Conservative party,it opened doors to the world which t was not the responsibility of the EU


Rather than leave the EU,I personally would have much preferred to have seen the UK break apart
It would have let the English nationalism tread its own lonely path in the big wide world

I can sort of sympathise with your views as I voted to remain.

But just because some people are waiting in a queue to join a club, doesn't actually make it the right decision to do so.

Can't agree on the UK breaking apart, but if thats what the majority want, thats democracy.
 
@Des 56

'The people on one side believed in lies and fake facts'

Please tell me I am reading this wrong or misinterpreting what you just said here?
Do you honestly think this is a one sided problem in that all the brexitieers were duped with lies and misinformation while the remain hold the high moral ground of having the correct facts and figures. IF this is the case then your ignorance is astronomical and you have a very deluded view of what really happened, I will be happy to give an extensive informed insight into why Brexit happened, what both sides of the campaign did and how they reasoned the public mind and trust , Brexit campaigners may not be angels here but the remain camp played even dirtier with there fearmongering, manipulation of data and also bringing in bodies to try manipulate the result who legally should be impartial and not politically motivated, this is forgetting the 10million spent a week before the official campaign started on a clearly biased leaflet campaign which in itself outstripped the spending cap on each bodies campaign.
 
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Anyone over 45 will have probably 20 years of their working lives left to negotiate,the effects of leaving will probably be felt most keenly after those years

If you believed "Project Fear 1" then its precisely this generation that will suffer the most.
Start with the countries who are desperate to join (leave aside Turkey who have been found to be not worthy of the privilege) Serbia,Montenegro,Bosnia these are just 3 of the countries waiting in eager anticipation of joining the EU:clapping:
For poor countries joining the EU is a no brainer, we along with Germany will pay for the new countries infrastructure to be built/upgraded, pay to set up bodies to bring in all the regulations required to join the club. If the EU had stayed a trading block then we would not be having this conversation instead there has been a power grab (very successful) by a small group of career politicians that now are in power in varies guises and totally unaccountable to anyone.
In a world where virtually every country of every continent is forming or has formed a trading block,one country has had its voting public brainwashed into thinking it can go it alone
UK or more precisely the English majority who decide the role of the whole of the UK
Yes decided by a democratic vote, very important point that for some is difficult to except or recognise. Our biggest trading partner outside of the EU is the USA then there are the other 165 countries we can do trade deals with. The EU countries may not like us leaving but they do know that at some point they will be forced to do a deal for the sake of their own business that will suffer because of a political ideal, the fact that a remainer PM has made it possible to force a "Soft Brexit" has played into their hands which is why there has been so little progress and so much unpleasant shenanigans going on on both sides.
Rather than leave the EU,I personally would have much preferred to have seen the UK break apart
It would have let the English nationalism tread its own lonely path in the big wide world

This is a very sad and bitter thing to think let alone say, how would that be of benefit to anyone.
 
I voted to stay in, but as we voted out lets just get out and stop flathing about, May has to go she has no power, get boris in and lets get out of the EU, then call a general election to get the Tories out.
 
I voted to stay in, but as we voted out lets just get out and stop flathing about, May has to go she has no power, get boris in and lets get out of the EU, then call a general election to get the Tories out.
having a labour government would be disastrous, even worse than staying in the EU.
 
Drag any old white fat men over 70 with right wing thoughts out into the street and throw tomatoes at them, this may save our youngsters from another 50 years of racism and hate lol, you got to love the old northern male mentality in this country, no one else in the world have them, they could invade anyone in the world and win by boring the pants off them accusing everyone of being benefit cheats and terrorists, god help us all pmsl, they call a spade a spade and a woman a slave lol, you just got to love em :D
 
A post was made that suggested only brexiteers were duped with lies and misinformation.
Let's just make a few clear points about remain camps attempts including national governmental bodies who should remain impartial to the vote.

-The public purse was raided of 10million pound for a pro-EU leaflet campaign.
(Reality Brexit campaign get found guilty of overspending of half a million on the campaign budget of 7 million, remain campaign remain silent throughout as they really have no grounds to complain given the extra monies pumped into remain campaign through the back doors by the likes of Soros etc and no mention of the 10million above)
-Obama declared the UK would be at the back of the queue if we voted Brexit even though he would not be in office thus has no grounds to make such claims (how did that work out ;) )

-Cameron claims brexit could lead to Europe declining into war, there is no evidence to suggest such and is based on nothing more than historical values in times when many countries in Europe were political enemies of which they are not now. (Reality - nothing has changed that wasn't already an issue in Europe, member states rebutted the comment expressing we live in different times and it is unlikely we will see a return to those days regardless of brexit)

-Bank of England makes a statement that even the vote of Brexit would almost certainly bring on another recession (it didn't happen and was not based on any credible evidence, it was a political address that the BoE are not supposed to do, by law they should be impartial, they claimed they had concerns and needed to express them - no action was taken on this breach of office and since then have done it a few more time without consequence, noted all in Pro EU position of fear if we left) since this the BoE has failed twice more in its predictions making anything it says on Brexit holds little credible value. (Reality - no recession, BoE admits it had plenty of reserves to cope Oops they failed to mention that and in fact since then the UK has seen record foreign investment in 2017)

-Treasury backs the BoE on recession claims and add that we can expect half million job loses on the vote alone, this is based on selective information and worst case scenarios of which they failed to mention (reality - employment went up to record highs).

I could go on and yes there were plenty done by Brexit but my point is that this was not one sided and we were given just as much if not more lies and fearmongering from remain.
Since the vote only 1 in 10 of the project fear came to fruition on the vote alone and that was the pound value but we have a floating pound and you don't need to be a rocket scientist to predict the market on that and on the pound, it has its positives for been low like boosted exports, a high pound in reflection which we had damaged our exports although inversely for both imports see the opposite effect (reality - most remainers point out that they get less alcohol abroad per pound so they were right and the world is falling in ;) ).
 
that would have taken me about an hour. then another half hour correcting.
 
a proud and productive country again.
tread its own lonely path in the big wide world
Well, at least we have covered both sides of the same coin.
Do we want the freedom to go it alone or the power to do it together?
Seems no one is debating whether we could or should have a better EU, it seems to be a more fundamental argument than that.
 
Oh yes, the "brainwashing and propaganda" - anyone who votes Tory is not only a "nasty racist bigot", but a "stupid nasty racist bigot" who needs to be told who to vote for, unlike those clever university professors who make a living out of reading books and watching telly instead of providing services which people will pay for.

... And the Tories want to privatise the NHS. Any day now. They're building up to it.
 
@johnduffell

'Seems no one is debating whether we could or should have a better EU, it seems to be a more fundamental argument than that.'

It would be a nice thought but here lies the problem, the EU has a design plan, it was hidden for decades and denied and only now have they admitted their goal, anyone or thing gets in the way of this direction is forced to take it one way or another. If you do you EU history you will be shocked at the way they treat members who oppose the EU ideology and on many occasion the EU has ignored or forced reruns on democratic votes, it is no coincidence the way the trade talks are going, it is not at all in their interest to allow brexit to happen in full and they will try anything to keep us aligned or in the customs union to preserve power and control over our destiny.
 
So dark wood i guess that's a : yes you'd like some kind of better common organisation for common good (i shouldn't have called it a better EU) but you don't believe it's possible (without starting from scratch? or at all due to the nature of large organisations? or due to cultural difference across the countries?)
 
The eu is a spent force it just doesn't know it yet. Their arrogant posturing on a daily basis and anti british daily briefings about how we need to accept eu reality is
Spiteful. They can't seem to accept that anyone wouldn't want to be a member of their club. But all they are really bothered about is our subscription fees.
Its easier to leave the mafia than extracate yourself from the e.u.
As soon as we are out there will be a stampede of other nations wanting out.
As ever it will be Britain that leads the way in Europe.
 
@johnduffell

When we joined it as the E.E.C. was presented as purely a trade group designed to bring countries together to make trade better and easier, it then became the EU that used power creep and an ideology that destroyed many of the original benefits that existed, it became a controlling entity and no longer was seen as simply a trading agreement, a few decades on it became all to obvious why as they revealed their plans for a superstate EU with its own army, one currency and one overall governing body, this plan can only be achieved if member release all individual powers over, if we all sign up to the common currency and if we surrender democracy and sovereignty.
We can only have what was originally on the table like the E.E.C if either we leave and set up a separate trade deal or the EU disbands and reverts back to a simple trading body and gives back all powers and controls to each nation member.

What are the chances of the EU back stepping 3 decades --- zero imho, it would have to collapse to get anywhere near, it is run by too many deluded stubborn ideolistic minds who are power hungry so that only leaves the option to leave regain all that was lost and set up a individual trade deal.

Many say it's impossible to have our cake and eat it yet the EU has shot itself in the foot twice recently by giving Canada and Japan exactly this, over 95% free trade without commitment to the ECJ ruling, freedom of movement or been a member of the customs union or single market.. these 2 countries trade a 10th of what the uk does and we have the advantage of having a massive trade deficit to lever a better deal, the only thing blocking that deal is the EU itself which is intent on us remaining in the customs union in some form or fashion, it will maintain its sluggish stance and dismissive attitude until the 5mins to midnight when it has exhausted all options - my worry is we have May who is a remainer at heart and she seems to be dancing to the EU's song here and trying to keep us tied to EU customs regulatory control meaning we haven't left and cannot make those trade deals across the world without EU intervention IE Bexit in name only, that is why we saw Boris and Davis resign as they know this is not Brexit what she has proposed - it is likely the EU will play ball on it as they keep customs control yet she is taking a massive gamble in defying the electorate decision hence she is presenting it as what we asked for when it clearly is not.. she is relying on the publics general lack of understanding here to keep here position... it gets me how she has to both keep the brexiteers happy and the remainers happy at the same time - no she doesn't, Brexit won and those are the ones you need to keep happy, remainers need to learn what a democratic decision is and why it is the core of our society, undermining it will carry forward consequences that could destroy public confidence in our whole system for decades to come.
 
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