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Baddegg

Baddegg

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Went to view a kitchen refit this week, new kitchen and new rfc circuit dedicated to the kitchen, have a look at the CU and whilst inspecting I see that the 2 lighting circuits, up & down, are both wired with the same 1mm 3&E cable (pre 2005 cable)
Red as line to down mcb, yellow to up mcb, blue to neutral bar and earth to earth bar,
I am relatively new to this game but I’ve never seen that before and the customer says she’s never had any problems with it,ask for any old paper work and the cert (won’t mention the scams name) for a CU change doesn’t mention it but then it also says all IR readings were perfect ha ha!
 
That’s what I explained to her but she declined,not sure there’s much I can do after that,thought I’d share though just wish I’d got some pics,
 
According to the certification,a local building firm to me, registered with a scheme, I have stressed to the owner that it’s not right and needs changing but as I say she’s not interested as it’s never given her any problems....has anybody seen this before and what would you do in this situation?
 
You see this a lot in commercial /industrial installations across three phases but there is a requirement for a linked protective device to be employed to protect the neutral.
 
No neither of them, I run a small home improvement company, the customer wants a new kitchen fitted but also wants the kitchen rewired and put on its own dedicated RFC, at the moment it just on the down RFC, so before I commit to the new circuit I wanted to inspect the existing installation,load,no or circuits etc and found that....
To be fair other than that there’s not any problem with it, theres only 5 circuits on the CU
 
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Thanks westward, going to be honest that’s well above me as I only do domestic ( I don’t pretend to be a real spark ha ha) but am always looking to learn,what sort of device would you employ in that situation to protect the neutral? I’m not suggesting implementing it in this situation but am just interested
 
Baddegg said:
Thanks westward, going to be honest that’s well above me as I only do domestic ( I don’t pretend to be a real spark ha ha) but am always looking to learn,what sort of device would you employ in that situation to protect the neutral? I’m not suggesting implementing it in this situation but am just interested
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imo, you need the service of a qualified spark .
 
Never confessed to being as knowledgeable as others buzz, I thought Id come on here to share my experience and continue building my knowledge and I have to say the vast majority of people on here seem ok with helping. I have never claimed to be any more than a “domestic installer” and if I’m being honest have no interest or inclination to be, what I do have is an avid interest to learn from where ever and whom ever I can,it’s extremely easy to throw out a statement like that over a keyboard but I feel very unjustified in this instance,who do you assume uses and views these forums? I think the vast majority are “unqualified sparks” looking for advice and expansion of their knowledge, just out of interest what would you do as a “qualified spark” in that situation?
My advice was it isn’t right and needs sorting but I’m happy to take any constructive advice from anyone generous enough enough to give it,
 
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Guys are not going to throw knowledge out to unqualified people. It’s the reason we serve a 4 year apprenticeship. Sounds harsh but I’ve had it bite me before when giving “Friendly Advice” the muppet I gave said advice got his wires crossed (No pun intended) and blew a main fuse.
 
Did you not ask any questions during your appentiship?
Never said i was going to do anything,although under the current uk system I am more than “qualified” to do the works and notify them where needed, (I didnt create the system)
The thread was more a chance to share something I’ve come up against and see if anyone else had experienced it.
Westward mentioned that you occasionally come across this setup on commercial and industrial installations and that a linked protective device is required to protect the neutral i was merely curious as to what that may be,I apologise to anyone who thinks I’ve over stepped the mark with that question.
Please don’t judge everyone by the same standards as the person you rather foolishly gave advice to, hope your professional indemnity is up to date?
As you are a “qualified” spark I’ll ask you what would you do in the situation? Just to be clear I’m not asking you for electrical advice, as shocking as it may be to you I feel more than competent to do the works,
 
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Not doubting your experience buddy,that’s really the reason us “boil in the bags” are here wouldn’t you say?
 
Not doubting your experience buddy,that’s really the reason us “boil in the bags” are here wouldn’t you say?
Not sure what apprentices have to do with this,are you implying that if someone served an apprenticeship they would know all the answers?
I’ll leave it at that,it’s a shame that it seems easier to insult people on here than just to help,
 
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There’s a lot of people on this forum so far up their own a**. The way some of you talk is as though you were born with all this vast knowledge that makes you far superior to the rest of use. The handful of you that consider yourself to be superior should just make yourselves a WhatsApp group n play amongs yourselves so that other can get on and give/receive advise the way the forum was intended.
 
If the OP has the relevant knowledge and quals to be a "domestic installer", that's good enough for the work he's doing, and the schemes have approved it, so be it.

This question may have come from a "real" electrician (apologies to OP) so his background shouldn't be an issue.

Q. Is using a 3 core and earth right for serving both lighting circuits?
A. No, it isn't.

I would assume even a domestic installer would need to test their installation on completion, so that's when you write down comments on existing installation.
 
Hi little spark
No need to apologise, as stated I don’t consider myself an electrician in the fullest sense of the word,I do have all relevant qualifications and scheme membership with PL and a fair bit of experience within the domestic market which is where I intend to stay,this was just something I’d never seen before.
Many thanks for the advise on comments on the existing installation that is what I intended to do but as a relatively new “boil in the bag” never heard that one but did make me chuckle, was really just looking for reassurance to that effect
 
paullyons said:
There’s a lot of people on this forum so far up their own a**. The way some of you talk is as though you were born with all this vast knowledge that makes you far superior to the rest of use. The handful of you that consider yourself to be superior should just make yourselves a WhatsApp group n play amongs yourselves so that other can get on and give/receive advise the way the forum was intended.
Click to expand...
 
Baddegg said:
According to the certification,a local building firm to me, registered with a scheme, I have stressed to the owner that it’s not right and needs changing but as I say she’s not interested as it’s never given her any problems....has anybody seen this before and what would you do in this situation?
Click to expand...
Deleted
 
Going back to the original question. If you do the kitchen install and put the new circuit in would you be doing the EIC? Just thinking of backside covering and where your concerns on other parts of the installation could be recorded. Again, I’m a ‘boil in a bag’ keen to learn and haven’t had the luxury of a four year apprenticeship but funnily enough want to do the best and safest job I can. :cool:
 
Hi Alan
Yes that’s what I will do,as before it’s just nice to have the reassurance of experience if anyone’s kind enough to take the time, good luck with your boiling,I’m sure you are aware there are also a lot of very experienced and positive sparks on here who will help where they can but will also tell you no if they don’t feel it’s right without insulting you,
 
Well it's good that at that has been aired out in the open! Anyway although I'm sure the neutral is wrong to be like that, I I'm less clear that the cpc has to be separate. As long as it checks out for adiabatic and ccc which it will almost certainly then it would be ok if it were a 4c+e wouldn't it? Anyone know if there's a reg preventing it?
 
The OP has stated he is qualified and experienced within the area of domestic wiring and has acknowledged that there are higher levels of knowledge and experience. I see no need to castigate the OP because that is his exlusive experience and skillset. Bear in mind you "real" electricians if put in a house and asked to rewire it would probably make a pigs ear out of it. If there were no such people then you real electricians would have to do all the house bashing which you would not want to do. So there is a gap in the market. House rewires are really not the complex end of electrics we all know it. Nevertheless it has a place. Really speaking there is no advice to give. Whoever did the wiring was wrong in the way they did it. I would advise the customer to get the person back to rectify it.
But that aside your question has been answered @paullyons in that you would note the problem on the certificate. Clearly there is a borrowed neutral which can lead to the situation of isolating one circuit and the potential for being electrocuted while beleiving it is dead. Personally I would not work on such an installation, without the owner allowing rectification of the problem or getting the person who did it back to sort it out.
 
It is an unusual thing to do and yes they can share a cpc but not the neutral, theoretically it could overload if two 10A protective devices are employed. It is possible this cable is jointed to existing cables at some point.
 
Hi, my 20p view is - its one circuit with one N and one CPC that's (incorrectly) fed by two OCPD. This may give rise to danger in maintenance situations. While it's not pretty, an improvement might be to reduce to one OCPD. But this creates a division of circuits problem, so I'd rewire it.
Edit - just read they're on the same RCD (as they'd have to be) so reduce to one OCPD :) .
 
Baddegg said:
I think I speak for a lot of boil in the bags here when I say that yes it is considered the lower end of electrical work with regards to skill set and knowledge but it doesn’t mean we don’t want to do it safely and properly,thanks vortigern well put!
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Domestic work, is as has been said an art, it's not just the electrical side, you have to deal with customers on a daily basis, the problem solving may not be as dramatic as say Commercial or Industrial work, but there are problems regardless, how to route cable runs, how to avoid damaging decorations, how to plan the work especially when doing lived in rewires, without panicking at the end of the days work, trying to leave the customer, safe and sound until you come back to resume work the next day.
I have no recent knowledge as I am retired, but from seeing, and hearing some of the horror stories, regarding "boil in the bags", it saddens me, there are of course some very good DIs, but allied to that there are some real Cowboys, charging people good money for sub standard work, rant over sorry if it's old hat.
 
Murdoch said:
Both at the board ..... needs investigating imho ....
Click to expand...

This IS the answer to the OP ............ unless its investigated no one will have a clue.................. least of all people on a forum.

Your "later" declaration of that its a dual board, with both circuits on the same RCD, but separate MCB's ......................... well, the most obvious answer here is to have both "feeds" on the same MCB ........... then safe isolation IS achieved.
 
Asside from the safety issues mentioned, it seems a bit pointless to me to wire it this way. There must only be around 5 meters of this 3 core to the first light in the dowmstairs circuit, then a split to some 2 core to run upstairs. So they have maybe saved 5 of meters of cable but the 3core is twice the price anyway.
 
Pete999 said:
Domestic work, is as has been said an art, it's not just the electrical side, you have to deal with customers on a daily basis, the problem solving may not be as dramatic as say Commercial or Industrial work, but there are problems regardless, how to route cable runs, how to avoid damaging decorations, how to plan the work especially when doing lived in rewires, without panicking at the end of the days work, trying to leave the customer, safe and sound until you come back to resume work the next day.
I have no recent knowledge as I am retired, but from seeing, and hearing some of the horror stories, regarding "boil in the bags", it saddens me, there are of course some very good DIs, but allied to that there are some real Cowboys, charging people good money for sub standard work, rant over sorry if it's old hat.
Click to expand...
Sumed up very well there Pete each skill set or niece of electrical work has its own set of skills although we are all putting in rings and radial circuits. The problem with these short courses is they may cram in everything academically with a limited practical but it doesn't replace a longer term on the job training. The OP will encounter these problems of existing installations on most occasions this is where experience & training comes in. How do you think the likes of Pete,Tel and even myself got over these issues before all the schemes helplines and internet forums.
 
I'm struggling to find anything seriously wrong with this setup. I'm assuming 2 6A SP Mcb's isolating the up and down L circuits. so what we have is a shared Neutral which is not uncommon. So without some rewiring they will both have to be on the same Rcd, which again in not uncommon.

I've seen similar done in the 1960's using singles to a central point which is then split to various circuits. It only means the neutral is joined further down the line rather than joined at the neutral bar.

Regarding safe isolation, without a DP MCB the only way to isolate the neutral is with the main CU switch. This set up doesn't alter that.

So what big problem am I not seeing here?
 
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